Questions on Suspension Rebuild

[green69rt]

If you install the offset bushings in the UCAs you might want to look at my problem.  Look about a quarter of the way down on page two of the following thread.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,114959.new.html#new

[Dino]

If you install the offset bushings in the UCAs you might want to look at my problem.  Look about a quarter of the way down on page two of the following thread.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,114959.new.html#new

I installed my UCAs with offset bushings last weekend. I had a hell of a time getting the passenger side in because the UCA got spread a bit. It's snug in there but I can move it up and down so should be good. I did not have any issues moving the rear cam bolt all the way in but I'm going to double check tonight to make sure it's not hitting the frame like it did on yours.

I have to say that with these offset bushings in place the upper ball joint seems to have moved toward the rear of the car by quite a bit!

To narrow the UCA I wanted to stick a long threaded rod through both bushings so I could put some nuts and washers on there to make a vise, but the bushings are off so much that a straight rod simply does not fit. Good thing I had a small torque strap that did the job.

[green69rt]

If you install the offset bushings in the UCAs you might want to look at my problem.  Look about a quarter of the way down on page two of the following thread.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,114959.new.html#new

I installed my UCAs with offset bushings last weekend. I had a hell of a time getting the passenger side in because the UCA got spread a bit. It's snug in there but I can move it up and down so should be good. I did not have any issues moving the rear cam bolt all the way in but I'm going to double check tonight to make sure it's not hitting the frame like it did on yours.

I have to say that with these offset bushings in place the upper ball joint seems to have moved toward the rear of the car by quite a bit!

To narrow the UCA I wanted to stick a long threaded rod through both bushings so I could put some nuts and washers on there to make a vise, but the bushings are off so much that a straight rod simply does not fit. Good thing I had a small torque strap that did the job.

On the REAR cam bolt only, when you have the UCA in place, make sure you can move the cam bolt over its total adjustment range.  Then with the cam bolt turned so the UCA is moved all the way towards the engine, move the UCA up and down to make sure it moves freely.  

And yes, with the bushings installed and adjusted to its max point, the UCA ball joint moved so far to the rear that the UCA was just barely on the upper bumper.

[Dino]

If you install the offset bushings in the UCAs you might want to look at my problem.  Look about a quarter of the way down on page two of the following thread.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,114959.new.html#new

I installed my UCAs with offset bushings last weekend. I had a hell of a time getting the passenger side in because the UCA got spread a bit. It's snug in there but I can move it up and down so should be good. I did not have any issues moving the rear cam bolt all the way in but I'm going to double check tonight to make sure it's not hitting the frame like it did on yours.

I have to say that with these offset bushings in place the upper ball joint seems to have moved toward the rear of the car by quite a bit!

To narrow the UCA I wanted to stick a long threaded rod through both bushings so I could put some nuts and washers on there to make a vise, but the bushings are off so much that a straight rod simply does not fit. Good thing I had a small torque strap that did the job.

On the REAR cam bolt only, when you have the UCA in place, make sure you can move the cam bolt over its total adjustment range.  Then with the cam bolt turned so the UCA is moved all the way towards the engine, move the UCA up and down to make sure it moves freely.  

And yes, with the bushings installed and adjusted to its max point, the UCA ball joint moved so far to the rear that the UCA was just barely on the upper bumper.

The rear cam bolt does move over the entire range. It's bottomed out toward the engine but I haven't checked if the UCA is digging in the undercoating or not. I will shortly.

Yeah the arm rests on half the tip of the bumper. That's probably gonna kill that bumper... If it does I'll move the bracket and the bumper.

[green69rt]

If you install the offset bushings in the UCAs you might want to look at my problem.  Look about a quarter of the way down on page two of the following thread.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,114959.new.html#new

I installed my UCAs with offset bushings last weekend. I had a hell of a time getting the passenger side in because the UCA got spread a bit. It's snug in there but I can move it up and down so should be good. I did not have any issues moving the rear cam bolt all the way in but I'm going to double check tonight to make sure it's not hitting the frame like it did on yours.

I have to say that with these offset bushings in place the upper ball joint seems to have moved toward the rear of the car by quite a bit!

To narrow the UCA I wanted to stick a long threaded rod through both bushings so I could put some nuts and washers on there to make a vise, but the bushings are off so much that a straight rod simply does not fit. Good thing I had a small torque strap that did the job.

On the REAR cam bolt only, when you have the UCA in place, make sure you can move the cam bolt over its total adjustment range.  Then with the cam bolt turned so the UCA is moved all the way towards the engine, move the UCA up and down to make sure it moves freely.  

And yes, with the bushings installed and adjusted to its max point, the UCA ball joint moved so far to the rear that the UCA was just barely on the upper bumper.

The rear cam bolt does move over the entire range. It's bottomed out toward the engine but I haven't checked if the UCA is digging in the undercoating or not. I will shortly.

Yeah the arm rests on half the tip of the bumper. That's probably gonna kill that bumper... If it does I'll move the bracket and the bumper.

If you have the front cam turned completely out and the rear completely in, then this is the most extreme position that you will ever be in.  After alignment it probably won't be that bad.

[Dino]

If you install the offset bushings in the UCAs you might want to look at my problem.  Look about a quarter of the way down on page two of the following thread.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,114959.new.html#new

I installed my UCAs with offset bushings last weekend. I had a hell of a time getting the passenger side in because the UCA got spread a bit. It's snug in there but I can move it up and down so should be good. I did not have any issues moving the rear cam bolt all the way in but I'm going to double check tonight to make sure it's not hitting the frame like it did on yours.

I have to say that with these offset bushings in place the upper ball joint seems to have moved toward the rear of the car by quite a bit!

To narrow the UCA I wanted to stick a long threaded rod through both bushings so I could put some nuts and washers on there to make a vise, but the bushings are off so much that a straight rod simply does not fit. Good thing I had a small torque strap that did the job.

On the REAR cam bolt only, when you have the UCA in place, make sure you can move the cam bolt over its total adjustment range.  Then with the cam bolt turned so the UCA is moved all the way towards the engine, move the UCA up and down to make sure it moves freely.  

And yes, with the bushings installed and adjusted to its max point, the UCA ball joint moved so far to the rear that the UCA was just barely on the upper bumper.

The rear cam bolt does move over the entire range. It's bottomed out toward the engine but I haven't checked if the UCA is digging in the undercoating or not. I will shortly.

Yeah the arm rests on half the tip of the bumper. That's probably gonna kill that bumper... If it does I'll move the bracket and the bumper.

If you have the front cam turned completely out and the rear completely in, then this is the most extreme position that you will ever be in.  After alignment it probably won't be that bad.

Good point! Yes that's how it sits now.

[High School 69 Charger]

Wow what a great amount of information.   I looked at your thread and really good info.  Something for me to check on as I reassemble.  Dino is farther than me so will be curious if he is able to get his to full adjustment.
Interesting my drivers side already had the offset bushings but I don't know what their orientation was.  So I don't know if they were put in to compensate for some previous issue or not.  I've had the car since 78 so this was done without my knowledge but that doesn't mean it wasn't done without my knowledge.  I really wish I had noticed the orientation before I pushed them out.
Anyway wanted to say the pics on your car are awesome green69rt.

As I get ready for install I do have a couple questions:
1.  Which points do you lubricate (and with what) during install.  
    UCA cam bolts in sleaves
    LCA pin in sleeve in bushing
    LCA pin in k member bracket
    Strut rod both ends
    I think all the other joints are solid but do you put a little grease in just to make assembly easier.
2.  Did you torque the Upper Ball Joint to the UCA at the vise or after you assembled back to the car with new bushings and adjusting bolts in place?   Most of what I read says do it on the car.
3.  I caught in Dino's thread to not tighten the UCA bolts, the LCA nut on the Pin, the strut rod (at the bushing end), and I think even the sway bar until after you set it back down with weight down and height is adjusted.
Will probably have more questions once I start.
Thanks for advice.

[Dino]

Suspension is only a small part of the upgrades I'm tackling so the alignment is far far away.

I torqued the upper ball joints with the UCAs on the car. No problems torquing it to 150 so I knew the UCAs were good.

[Dino]

The UCAs are not making any contact with the body, even in their most extreme caster position. And I noticed now that the cam bolts are snug, the arms move with about the same resistance so I guess all's well!

[green69rt]

The UCAs are not making any contact with the body, even in their most extreme caster position. And I noticed now that the cam bolts are snug, the arms move with about the same resistance so I guess all's well!

Good to hear.  It's always better to do a few checks now than suffer later.

[green69rt]

Wow what a great amount of information.   I looked at your thread and really good info.  Something for me to check on as I reassemble.  Dino is farther than me so will be curious if he is able to get his to full adjustment.
Interesting my drivers side already had the offset bushings but I don't know what their orientation was.  So I don't know if they were put in to compensate for some previous issue or not.  I've had the car since 78 so this was done without my knowledge but that doesn't mean it wasn't done without my knowledge.  I really wish I had noticed the orientation before I pushed them out.
Anyway wanted to say the pics on your car are awesome green69rt.

As I get ready for install I do have a couple questions:
1.  Which points do you lubricate (and with what) during install.  
    UCA cam bolts in sleaves
    LCA pin in sleeve in bushing
    LCA pin in k member bracket
    Strut rod both ends
    I think all the other joints are solid but do you put a little grease in just to make assembly easier.
2.  Did you torque the Upper Ball Joint to the UCA at the vise or after you assembled back to the car with new bushings and adjusting bolts in place?   Most of what I read says do it on the car.
3.  I caught in Dino's thread to not tighten the UCA bolts, the LCA nut on the Pin, the strut rod (at the bushing end), and I think even the sway bar until after you set it back down with weight down and height is adjusted.
Will probably have more questions once I start.
Thanks for advice.

I didn't lube anything except for assembly.  My personal opinion is that oils/grease tend to make the bushing degrade faster.  I use some dish soap with water to make things go together easier.  I haven't gotten to the strut rod stage yet.

Check those bushings carefully.  The old install was to fix a different problem than we go after now.  30 years mean a lot of changes.  If the offset bushings were put in more that 10 years ago I would be really suspect on their orientation.

[High School 69 Charger]

Looking for correct color for the sway bar.  Mine is original but not sure if it was painted black along the way or started that way.  From what I saw the brackets are definitely black but not sure if the bar should be black or steel grey.  
On the new Moog parts that are cast do you recommend painting them.  I would need to use solvent to get off the oil coating and be careful of the boot but was thinking a paint coat would help protect it.
I'm pretty sure the Replacement moog tie rod sleeves should be black.   They are kind of black with a heavy coating of oil.  Pretty sure I will wipe them down and paint them.

To Mitch:  I saw you comments on the cosmoline.   I am curious you mentioned just going black next time.  Would you have considered just using a gold cad spray???  Leaning toward black but have the option for gold cad.   Not doing the cosmoline.


Update:  I just found a post from a rebuild in 2006 by shakey.   Here was his color comments:
I used Eastwood's products.
The LCA's got self etching primer and then two coats of Gold Cad.
The sway bar, centre link, strut rods, spindles, lower ball joints all got self etching primer and then two coats of Spray Gray.
The upper arms and the torsion bars got Extreme Chassis Black.

Here is the link to his post.   The pics and comments are about halfway on the second page.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=nutlhf8736ua19cvruokcrlnc3&topic=15396.25

It looks like he did do grey on the sway bar, did repaint the new parts, and used the Gold Cad on the LCA.
Any comments???

[green69rt]

Yeah, if I had to do it again I would do paint and not cosmoline.  I think the sway bar was a natural metal grey so if you want to paint it, use something like Eastwood's natural metal color paints.

Anything not exposed to harsh conditions I would use RPM.  Easy to use and easy to touch up.

[bee1971]

Took advice from Bakerhillpins and gave the LCA bushings a try.  They are successfully removed and have one pressed in already.  I used the O Reilly's Ball Joint Press which is a giant C with adapters and large screw shaft.   I had called my local shop and realized they were just going to beat out the bushing and probably be in a hurry.  Figured I could take my time and be do as good of job.   Definitely took some sweat equity but I got them out.  As suggested I cleaned off the burs and then pressed in a new one.  Since everyone says you need a very big press I was surprised I could just push it in with the same tool.  I'm sure I could have saved some effort using my air gun but I felt more comfortable using a breaker bar and socket.  I felt I could go slow and make sure it was going in smoothly with it getting more pressure as I put it in.  1st one went just as expected.  About the point I hit bottom (lip seated) was about the point I was putting a fair torque on the breaker bar.   Thanks to the advice and encouragement I gave it a shot and saved a bit of money.  Getting closer to assembly time.

Lots of fun isn't it

Doing the same thing on my 71 Bee while the Numbers Matching 383 is turning into a 432 Stroker

I even took the K Member out and sandblasted it , welded on a 71 B Body reproduction skid plate

On The Lower Control Arms , looking at your picture of bushings installed

I pressed the lower pins into the bushings first , then used a proper size pipe to fit over the pins and press on the metal bushing lip into the lower control arms as a unit

[bee1971]

Yes I did buy the ball joint tool and it took a lot more force than 125lbs to get them off.  But they are both off thanks to a very larger breaker bar.

Note, per FSM - If you can't seat the new upper ball joint at 125ft lbs then the UCA is junk and will need to be replaced.

WARNING - if you order a pre-populated UCA from, lets sayyyy, Pirate Jack. The UCA comes with a sh*t (IMHO) upper ball joint. But you can't replace it with your Moog one because it's .010 smaller than the Moog OEM fitment part.    I found this out with not enough time left to deal with the problem and just put the UCAs on. I'll attempt to rebuild my old UCAs later.  

Am taking the LCA to a local shop to change out the bushings.  I don't have a press to even attempt it.

You can use the same press to start to remove the LCA bushings. It's a 3 step process.

• You press out the shaft and the center bushing. Typically the center bushing sticks to the shaft and you have to cut it off very carefully with a cutoff wheel. I had one shaft basically fall out.
• Remove the center rubber. DON'T combine this with the next step!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remove the rubber first.
• Using an air chisel and a cutting bit carefully cut out the outer bushing (it can't be pressed out). The outer bushing is made of a softer material. You need to use a normal chisel to cut the outer lip off first. Then carefully use the cutting bit to cut down the side of the outer bushing and peel it out. It takes a bit of time for the first one but the 2nd goes much smoother/faster.

I honed out the hole to remove any scratches/oh-shits I made and smoothed out the face too. This allowed the bushing to be smoothly pushed back in.

Yes I did buy the ball joint tool and it took a lot more force than 125lbs to get them off.  But they are both off thanks to a very larger breaker bar.

Note, per FSM - If you can't seat the new upper ball joint at 125ft lbs then the UCA is junk and will need to be replaced.

WARNING - if you order a pre-populated UCA from, lets sayyyy, Pirate Jack. The UCA comes with a sh*t (IMHO) upper ball joint. But you can't replace it with your Moog one because it's .010 smaller than the Moog OEM fitment part.    I found this out with not enough time left to deal with the problem and just put the UCAs on. I'll attempt to rebuild my old UCAs later.  

Am taking the LCA to a local shop to change out the bushings.  I don't have a press to even attempt it.

You can use the same press to start to remove the LCA bushings. It's a 3 step process.

• You press out the shaft and the center bushing. Typically the center bushing sticks to the shaft and you have to cut it off very carefully with a cutoff wheel. I had one shaft basically fall out.
• Remove the center rubber. DON'T combine this with the next step!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remove the rubber first.
• Using an air chisel and a cutting bit carefully cut out the outer bushing (it can't be pressed out). The outer bushing is made of a softer material. You need to use a normal chisel to cut the outer lip off first. Then carefully use the cutting bit to cut down the side of the outer bushing and peel it out. It takes a bit of time for the first one but the 2nd goes much smoother/faster.

I honed out the hole to remove any scratches/oh-shits I made and smoothed out the face too. This allowed the bushing to be smoothly pushed back in.

Those same upper control arms are sold on eBay , amongst other jobbers or suppliers much cheaper

Anyways I have the same units pictured on Pirate Jacks thru EBay

I went to torque those upper ball joints down with the proper socket and one of the ball joints stripped , couldn't bring it up to even 60 ft lbs

So I pulled the upper ball joint out , went and bought the moog replacement , installed it with red loctite on the threads and torqued it down to 125 ft lbs no issues

In that time frame , seller on eBay sent me a new upper control arm to replace the bad one , great customer service

Anyways the larger moog upper ball joint was just the ticket for biting on the Chinese upper control arm Half ass threads

And who knows how the factory upper control arms will look after pulling out the upper ball joints

Maybe I will rebuild the factory upper control arms this winter when I am bored after I get my motor installed hopefully sooner then later

[High School 69 Charger]

After a marathon day of painted the parts are finally prepped.  I ended up with the following:
Rustoleum Self Etching Primer on everything
Eastwood Detail Grey (metal/steel look):  strut rods and sway bar
Eastwood Spray Grey (cast iron slightly darker than Detail Gray):  Knuckle and brake back plate, lower ball joint assy, tie rod ends, steering link, drums (notice one aftermarket one original)
Rustoleum Engine Gloss Black (oil and fuel resistant):  UCA, Torsion Bars, sway bar brackets (I even masked the rubber)
Engine Gold:  LCA (with ball joint joint Spray Grey)
Probably not perfect for a show points car but a million times better than what it started as.  Hopefully no major errors here.
Time for assembly (finally.......)

[Mike DC]

     
This thread might end up being a good one for sticky-ing.

[High School 69 Charger]

Finally parts on the car!!   So here is my update followed by my Questions for my next steps.
Got all the bushings installed on both the LCA and UCA.  With all the comments on these issues I was slow and careful.  Also, on the LCA, I took a couple pics of how I installed with the OReilly tool since I don't have a press.   First pic is getting the bushing started.  The tool does not have much reach so I had to do this with no adapters and then once started added the adapter (1 1/4 socket) to make sure it pressed only on the outer ring and also setup vertically so I could get more torque.
The pins were able to be pushed (actually tapped in) using a deep socket to hold the center sleeve so it didn't try to push out.  Pins actually went in pretty easy.  So now the LCA is done.
I used the offset bushings for the UCA and with all the discussion was very careful on this. 
For Mitch:  The Moog press washers were the same as you saw.  1 very large (which they say to put on the outside) and 1 smaller for the inside.  I considered putting both small on the rear side to avoid the problem you ran into but in my trial fitting I found the large one did not extend past the back of the UCA so I put them on as the instructions
So moment of truth it was time to put them on the car and check for clearances.   Both installed nice and snug on the bushing washers (no trouble that Dino had) and then with the eccentric turned to max (castor) I checked for clearance and both were good.  Took a pic of the installed UCA and also the clearance.  (this is the passenger side)
Now for questions for my next steps.
1.  LCA pivot:  Where is the actual pivot point.  Does the pin lock in to the k member and the LCA actually pivot on the sleeve in the bushing or the actual rubber flexing.  I'm pretty sure the pin is actually locked solid to the k member but just wanted to understand.
2.  In my checks of my bolts and nuts I found both nuts on the pin thread on just fine until the very top of the nut.  It happens on both nuts and on both pins.  Its like the last thread on the nut is pinched.  Is this by design to help lock it on.   The pins have been wire brushed and the nuts were sand blasted.  The both start real easy until that last thread.  I could get a tap and clean them out but wanted to make sure this is not by design.  Looking for some info on this.
3. Torsion Bar installation:  There was a ton of grease in the back frame member and the seal was in good condition.  After clean out what grease and how much to I put back in. 
Thanks for advice as I keep progressing with my rebuild.
and here's the pics. 

[bakerhillpins]

Took advice from Bakerhillpins and gave the LCA bushings a try.  They are successfully removed and have one pressed in already.  I used the O Reilly's Ball Joint Press which is a giant C with adapters and large screw shaft.   I had called my local shop and realized they were just going to beat out the bushing and probably be in a hurry.  Figured I could take my time and be do as good of job.

Glad to see you were able to get them out.

Finally parts on the car!!   So here is my update followed by my Questions for my next steps.
Got all the bushings installed on both the LCA and UCA.  With all the comments on these issues I was slow and careful.  Also, on the LCA, I took a couple pics of how I installed with the OReilly tool since I don't have a press.

The FSM wants you to push the LCA shaft into the bushing first and then the bushing/shaft combination into the LCA in that order. Since you have already pushed the bushing into the LCA you will have to use a shim to be sure that you don't push the sleeve out of the back side of the bushing when you push the shaft into the LCA bushing.

[High School 69 Charger]

Yep, I backed up the sleeve with a deep socket to prevent any problems as you describe.  All set on that one.

[High School 69 Charger]

Progress on assembly today.  Both sides assembled with LCA, torsion, strut, knuckle/spindle, and shock.
still to go steering link, sway bar, and brake assembly.
Took me a while to get the boot on the lower ball joint.  Finally a piece of pvc pipe helped pop it on.
so far so good.

[Lennard]

Looks good

[High School 69 Charger]

Fully assembled and down on the ground.
Started the Height adjustments.   At the specs from the FSM, 1 7/8 variance ball joint bottom to torsion adjustment lever bottom (at pivot), it rides pretty high.  From a side view you can see clearance between fender rim and top of tire.  Know idea what is was originally at since its been soooooo long since it was truly aligned.
Still fine tuning height as it settles (about 1/8 to 1/4 high right now).  Then I need to tighten up all the final points (LCA pin, UPCA cams, strut, and sway bar link).   Then off to alignment.  I think a few trips around the block to let everything settle in and fine tune the height and torque checks.
Also did a quick set on toe in and direction with steering at center.   That looks good for pre alignment.
At present with all of this preset and the UCA offset bushings and cams set to max castor (UCA position Back toward engine and front away from engine) a simple level shows the camber at about positive 1/2 on drivers and negative 1/2 on passenger.   Since nothing is way out of wack it looks like the alignment should pull those where I need them and simply maximize castor with a balance between the sides.
good news is the car is on the ground and I can move it around.  Was kind of a shame to put the wheels on and hide all that restoration work.
Might be a little delay on getting it aligned as work and a vacation are in the way the next few weeks.
will post the results when I get it done.

[alfaitalia]

Nice work....I too want the very top pf my tyres just hidden by the wings (OK fenders!!). Looks good IMO as long as you don't go silly low and look like a Mexican low rider!!