date correct engine

[1974dodgecharger]

Thx....

What's considered date correct?

Did anyone speak to this?  Perhaps I missed it.  You've got the assembly date of the engine that needs to precede the car's build date by I think between an week and a month?  Then you've got the block casting date that needs to precede the engine build date by??  Is it a range from a couple weeks to say 3+ months?  Don't you also have a date stamped on the intake manifold?  (assuming you're going w/ an "original" one)  What's the range on that relative to the casting date and/or engine build date?  Are there any other significant dates on the engine, and if so how are they supposed to line up relative to the others?

I mean if you've got an engine w/ a correct assembly date, but your block was cast 3 months after the car was built, it's not "date correct".  Has anyone commented on how these dates are supposed to line up?  I'd figure you would need ALL of these dates to line up properly before you can even call an engine "date correct", no?

[500Jon]

Hi Folks,
Its common knowledge that a 'green' block casting is almost the same as green-oak.
It has to be weathered for at least 6 months before machining!
I have seen a numbers matching 1970 casting in its original 1973 car!!!
The build date is stamped onto the block by the engine builder.
This does not include the year by number, but by date LETTER.
The casting date can be anything from 6 months to a couple of years earlier.
Best not to use a post 70 engine block in any pre-smog 'MUSCLE CAR' irrespective of internals!

Are there better early or late blocks???
Not relative for pavement pounders, but very important for High Horsepower engines.
Mother Mopars best block was the 1971 400 casting.
Used by the very best low-deck racers as its easily the strongest ever made.
My friend in England owns an ex-Landy block used by Tom Nelson for the Engine Master Challenge in 2003.
Engine made 700 horses on pump gas!!!

500Jon

[dyslexic teddybear]

Just my 

The more original a car is.....the more "date correct" it is, the more value.

Likely the best example.....a near survivor,that is only missing the engine.....date correct could mean a big difference in value. That's pretty much the only place it would mean anything to me. If everything else is there, I can see it making quite a difference.

Interesting thought.....about it showing more care in restoring. Never considered that......

Guess it would make a more positive impression.

[BROCK]

Carb, Intake, Exhaust, Engine Block, Belts, Hoses, Distributor & Coil all have
a date code on them.  All of these date codes add up to points if you want to
go the concourse judging route. 

[Lord Warlock]

I think that's taking date correct to the extreme, I call my motor date correct only in that it was built and installed in another 69 model car, in my case it was another 69 charger r/t, and was the numbers matching motor for that car.  If a car has a non matching numbers engine, the build date doesn't mean much to me, as long as it isn't a 1974 or later 440 or a motorhome block.  I would assume people would want a motor that is as close to the original date as possible, and if I sold the car I'd explain how the current engine arrived in its location.  I killed the NM motor.

[1974dodgecharger]

as you guys said its more for the salesman to make more money and what a coincidence this guy talks about 'date correct motor' etc..sicne the engine had no vin of any sort etc..at roughly 8mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T70JQb3AJg

[James K]

An all number matching car with all the paperwork is much more valuable then one that has items replaced.  Like what was said, an all original car is only original once. A car does not lose much value if anything that normally wears out has been replaced with OEM parts (tires are the exception I believe, putting radials on a car that came with bias-ply is ok, unless you are going to a Concours deElegance show).

If the car is not numbers matching then it comes down to what the buyer wants. The terms "Date Correct," "Period Correct," and "Resto-Mod" are selling terms. Since number matching cars are rare, many people are "upgrading" their cars to perform and handle like a modern car, but keeping the original look.

Unless you are auto restorer, you will never get back the money you spent on your car. Where you make up the difference is the enjoyment you get from owning and driving your baby around.

[hemigeno]

I have a date correct on my 68 that came off the line nov 7  of 67.

In that case date correct is the best you're going to get, right?  I mean there is no VIN on a '67 engine, so....

I thought (at one time) the consensus opinion was that all 1968 model HP engines were stamped with a partial VIN - even during the 1967 calendar year?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,14753.msg166599.html#msg166599

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,936.msg12804.html#msg12804

If you're restoring it to original condition, then yes I'd say it adds value.  Depends on the whole package.  If you're selling a junker with a date correct engine then it might be worth a couple hundred dollars in the whole deal. 

I agree. It's all context.

If you want to swap in a 'date correct' 440 in place of a 383. It doesn't mean a lot. Probably the value of a rebuilt 440 over a rebuilt 383.

If you do the above and throw on a bunch of aftermarket parts. I don't care at all. It adds no value to me.

If you want to find a date correct 440 for a true 'restoration' on a car (not a 'clone' 'tribute' or whatever word is trick this week) AND the engine compartment is stock to go with the rest of a 'stock' car, then I care. Not because it is a date correct block but it tells me you went to great pains to find a date correct block to be as accurate as you could be given the circumstances. It tells me you probably did a lot of other things to the best of your ability and I won't find any surprises in the car. In and of itself, the date correct block is still not original but it speaks to the integrity and character of the person that put it together. THAT adds value.

  100%

[69CoronetRT]

I thought (at one time) the consensus opinion was that all 1968 model HP engines were stamped with a partial VIN - even during the 1967 calendar year?

Gene, In my personal opinion, I think this topic lacks credible research and a comprehensive data base on which to build a conclusion. This theory could be easily disproven by finding a VIN on any /6, 318, 383-2 or C body 440 or an HP engine that is not stamped. A data base with plant, engine assembly date, VIN or not and HP or not would clear up a lot of things.

As this is a Charger board, are there any members that have a VIN stamped on their original 1968 383? That would disprove the theory also.

What we do know is that not all plants stamped the VIN at the same time. One can find VINs stamped on 109XXX STL built cars which would be toward the start of the production year but it appears other plants did not stamp the engines that early.

Logically, it makes no sense to me to stamp only HP engines. A line worker would either stamp all or none. It would not be time effective to selectively stamp an engine. HP engines would only be a small percentage of engines that went down the line. It would be a waste of time to stand around and wait for HP only engines. two, what would be the logic for stamping only HP engines? They were a small percentage of assemblies. What value would that be to anyone? The company or line worker would not care if it was an HP or not when it came to putting on a VIN.

I believe people have found VINs on later built HP engines and not found VINs on earlier engines and made the erroneous conclusion that HP engines were stamped without taking into account plant and assembly/installation dates.

[hemigeno]

Doug, I certainly agree that there hasn't been a whole lot of dedicated research on this topic, but Dan / 8WHEELER has several examples which do fit the HP-only designation.  Then there's this (admittedly undocumented) reply related to 2v & 4v 383 engines which also fits:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,936.msg12892.html#msg12892

What the logic was behind a HP-only requirement for stampings during the '68 model year (IF such a requirement was indeed the case), I haven't a clue - apart from POSSIBLY being tied to theft-prevention or recovery.  I've never heard stories of a /6 car having its engine stolen, but have heard multiple stories of 426 & 440 cars having their mill yanked.

You already know I'm not as up on '68 stuff as I am on '69s, so I won't be dogmatic about the subject at all.  It's just another interesting topic to me (among many).

[xs29bb1]

I'm certainly not an expert, but the conclusion reached on that link is that VIN numbers in 68 went with the model year and not the calendar year.

I'd never heard that before, and I've seen a lot of material stating the opposite

Additionally, I have an October 67 HP 440 with no VIN

I'm not saying one way or the other what's correct, but I was always told that it was calendar year.

[xs29bb1]

I contacted "Andy 440" and he said that if it's a 68 model year, the VIN should be on the block

Then I called a guy who rebuilds old Mopar engines for a living, and he said that engines made in 67 didn't have the VIN.

So, that cleared up nothing....   

[69CoronetRT]

Doug, I certainly agree that there hasn't been a whole lot of dedicated research on this topic, but Dan / 8WHEELER has several examples which do fit the HP-only designation.  Then there's this (admittedly undocumented) reply related to 2v & 4v 383 engines which also fits:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,936.msg12892.html#msg12892

What the logic was behind a HP-only requirement for stampings during the '68 model year (IF such a requirement was indeed the case), I haven't a clue - apart from POSSIBLY being tied to theft-prevention or recovery.  I've never heard stories of a /6 car having its engine stolen, but have heard multiple stories of 426 & 440 cars having their mill yanked.

You already know I'm not as up on '68 stuff as I am on '69s, so I won't be dogmatic about the subject at all.  It's just another interesting topic to me (among many).

Yeah like I have said before I have and have had many 68 440's and the non HP engines have no stamp.
But all the 68 HP engines I have seen and have now have the stamping. Evan my September and
December 67 built 440 HP blocks are stamped, so it really did start some time in 67.

you know I find this stuff fascinating too.

The thread and Dan's input is certainly a valuable part of the total research. This missing component to the quote is 'from what plant?'

We know STL stamped engines 'early'. If he was looking at 440 HP blocks from GTX's or Coronet R/Ts built in the fall of '67 at the ST. Louis plant, then his statement would be correct.

If he was looking at non HP 440 blocks then he was looking at blocks from a C body and he very well could be correct.

We know plants started stamping the VINs at different times.

Jefferson (C body plant) may have not stamped blocks during the same time frame that STL did. That would make the comparison completely accurate and his conclusion valid based on what he had seen. However, it would also be erroneous to conclude that the reason the blocks were stamped or not stamped was due to the HP non-HP variation, not because of when the plant started stamping blocks.

You have to take the 440's out of the equation as the HPs and non HPs were installed at two different plants meaning you have to allow for plant variations. You have to compare 383's on the HP/Non-HP theory. Using 383's means you will be looking at cars from Lynch Road, ST. Louis and LA as those were the only plants that were installing 68 383HP engines. So, all we need to do is find a 383-4bbl non HP from one of those plants that is stamped and compare it to HP engines installed about the same time. That will give us a time frame on what that plant did during that particular time period.

My contention is there are other factors, besides the HP/non-HP that have to be taken into consideration before you can make a conclusion.

I've got a 68 383 2V Charger as well. Auto Tranny though. No VIN stamping on the block or transmission. The build date on the fender tag is June 12 68.
I currently have a 383 4V motor in the car that I pulled out of a 68 Charger. The block and trans bellhousing flange have the part VIN stamped on them
in the same place as the photo that Dan posted.

Let's look at this one....no where does the poster say he has the original engine nor did he say he compared the engine assembly date of the engine to the SPD to even see if it could be the original engine. This one is a 'we don't know yet'.

Then he says he pulled a 383-4V out of a 68 Charger that does have a VIN stamp. That tells us it wasn't an HP VS non HP thing as 68 Chargers did not get the 335 horse HP assembly. (Or he owns a Charger built at the STL plant and the car mistakenly received an engine assembly destined for a Super Bee or Road Runner.) If it's a Hamtramck built car, then that points to it NOT being an HP thing as Hamtramck plant would not have received B body 383HP engines destined for RRs and SBs as a matter of normal business.

This, as many other topics, is a valid and valuable matter that requires detailed and in depth research taking into account ALL variables besides an HP stampings in order to draw a valid conclusion. I'd like to see someone tackle it and publish the results.

[1974dodgecharger]

I contacted "Andy 440" and he said that if it's a 68 model year, the VIN should be on the block

Then I called a guy who rebuilds old Mopar engines for a living, and he said that engines made in 67 didn't have the VIN.

So, that cleared up nothing....    

they are both RIGHT....someone mentioned already starting Jan. 1st 68 they vin was stamped on there, but pre that no VIN stamping only date it manufactured on the engine block.   My 68 came off the line I think Nov or Dec. 7th of 67 so my engine does not have a matching VIN to the car itself.

Thats why some folks laugh when they say, I have a matching numbers 66 charger, HEMI, 4 speed, etc....no way to prove it unless they had the build sheet to back it up.

Thats how I understood it...

[69CoronetRT]

they are both RIGHT....someone mentioned already starting Jan. 1st 68 they vin was stamped on there, but pre that no VIN stamping only date it manufactured on the engine block.   My 68 came off the line I think Nov or Dec. 7th of 67 so my engine does not have a matching VIN to the car itself.

Here's are two STL cars. The first sequence number puts it in August of '67.
The second is from a car with an SPD of October of 67
From what plant is your car?

A valid topic that needs more research before drawing conclusions.

[1974dodgecharger]

Ill have to double check where my car came off again.  I think the topic has been discussed before and usually comes up every 6 months or so and gets pretty in depth each time about the vin matching block and tranny to the car itself.

[69CoronetRT]

Ill have to double check where my car came off again. 

It's from Hamtramck.

Again, a valid topic to research if someone wants to give it a whirl. The results would be valuable to the hobby.