Has anyone had time to read the article in Car and Driver about Chevy's concerns about releasing the new Camaro? I have not but my friend was texting me saying that he read it and it appears Chevy's concerned with releasing a muscle car with the loan money that the government gave them. What on Earth would they do? :ahum: There's no way to justify the loss of NOT selling them, right? If they didn't I'd go knocking on their door demanding my tax money back because they're just throwing it away! :spank:
A side note, I don't like the looks as much as the Challenger and the Mustang. The grill has a resemblence to the smile a stoner gets after taking a hit, but that's just my opinion and yes... my imagination can get away from me at times. ;)
Yet another reason why it's bad to have government too involved in business. Businesses typically understand customers where the government couldn't run a lemonade stand.
I believe they've already got a lot of inventory so I can't imagine them sitting on the cars. The whole idea of recovery depends on selling products.
Troy
And at the same time I can understand GM's fears. I'm sure there are still some in their structure that recall the fear they once held about anti-trust suits. You combine that with the ever tightening EPA regulations and the current wave of greeniness that is sweeping the nation with the government intervention and it makes a good case for a nice all purpose "people's kar".
Quote from: Troy on March 26, 2009, 09:57:11 AM
Yet another reason why it's bad to have government too involved in business. Businesses typically understand customers where the government couldn't run a lemonade stand.
I believe they've already got a lot of inventory so I can't imagine them sitting on the cars. The whole idea of recovery depends on selling products.
Troy
My thoughts too. Sounded to me as though it's more of a PR ploy, seeking pity so the press doesn't hammer them for making muscle cars on tax money. This whole situation is upsetting. I honestly don't want any of the Big 3 to go down, but there has to be better solutions than this. That said, I don't want to take this any further politically. :RantExplode:
Has anyone read the article?
All of the auto mags that have test driven these cars better hide them and stop answering the phone. :angel:
ive already seen one out on the open road... :shruggy:
update - with the new cafe requirements Obama signed last week all future cars will come with only 4 cyl motors by 2011 and all will be full hybrids by 2016, including trucks, no way around CAFE requirements, a V8 will never make it
(Insert explitive here)!!! :RantExplode: I'm sure that won't cause any problems for farmers, ranchers, loggers, carpenters, etc! :sarcasmalert: Someone try telling me again how cool the Corvair was... I need a good laugh right now! :brickwall:
QuoteYet another reason why it's bad to have government too involved in business. Businesses typically understand customers where the government couldn't run a lemonade stand.
I believe they've already got a lot of inventory so I can't imagine them sitting on the cars. The whole idea of recovery depends on selling products.
Troy
Quoteupdate - with the new cafe requirements Obama signed last week all future cars will come with only 4 cyl motors by 2011 and all will be full hybrids by 2016, including trucks, no way around CAFE requirements, a V8 will never make it
My thoughts too. Sounded to me as though it's more of a PR ploy, seeking pity so the press doesn't hammer them for making muscle cars on tax money. This whole situation is upsetting. I honestly don't want any of the Big 3 to go down, but there has to be better solutions than this. That said, I don't want to take this any further politically. RantExplode
Has anyone read the article?
QuoteChevy's concerned with releasing a muscle car with the loan money that the government gave them. What on Earth would they do? ahum There's no way to justify the loss of NOT selling them, right? If they didn't I'd go knocking on their door demanding my tax money back because they're just throwing it away! spank
QuoteInsert explitive here)!!! RantExplode I'm sure that won't cause any problems for farmers, ranchers, loggers, carpenters, etc! sarcasm alert Someone try telling me again how cool the Corvair was... I need a good laugh right now! brickwall
If we didn't want the govt messing with our cars, then all we had to do was be in favor of allowing the price of gasoline rise instead. It would have happened perfectly naturally through the demands of the free market as worldwide oil demand grows.
So, how many of you guys were in favor of letting gas prices rise?
We did this CAFE problem to ourselves.
I think the government of the day would have been looking for a way to interfere with the evil car companies no matter what. The bailout money gave them leverage far more than the price of gas.
Quote from: Ghoste on March 26, 2009, 05:40:12 PM
I think the government of the day would have been looking for a way to interfere with the evil car companies no matter what. The bailout money gave them leverage far more than the price of gas.
Ghoste,
very insightful, as usual.
:cheers:
QuoteI think the government of the day would have been looking for a way to interfere with the evil car companies no matter what. The bailout money gave them leverage far more than the price of gas.
Yes, I agree.
But people complain about the govt doing this stuff to the cars as if they had a big choice in the matter. If the govt just stepped back & did nothing, then regular supply & demand would eventually crash the domestic economy with high gas prices (just because of sheer market forces).
Nobody seems to look at it from the point of view that these increased CAFE rules will artificially
CHEAPEN our gas. The American public has
CHOSEN this. We have collectively spoken loud & clear that we will take any amount of CAFE regs as long as gasoline stays cheaper than bottled water.
Hey Mike, I don't want to sound like I'm just complaining to complain. Sorry if I did. I understand that something had to be done and I haven't thought of anything better. But, now that the money has been handed out, I can see many ways it will impact us. I don't think this country will ever be the same again, in many respects.
As for the cheapening of gas, it will only cheapen it if the oil companies don't cut back production. Once they calculate the future demand they'll calculate where they'll be most profitable in regards to production volume. That may mean turning down production and charging more per gallon. :shruggy: :Twocents:
Hey, it's cool. Sorry if you took my post personally, I didn't mean it that way. This issue has just become a total soapbox thing for me.
-----------------------------------------------
I don't see any way for worldwide oil production to actually be reduced any time soon. It's only a question of trying to maintain current levels and increase where possible. We're getting a huge percentage of our existing production from aging fields with outputs that are falling by the year.
It's true that some wells may be stopped, but that often has a lot to do with "resting" the field. (Over-pump a field and you will reduce its eventual total output in the future.) That, and trying to build up some semblance of excess reserves for stabilization purposes. The worldwide excess capacity (to turn on temporarily and offset short-term problems) is way too small anymore. It was a lot bigger in the 1970s and we still had huge problems.
No problems Mike, I just didn't want give the impression of being a cronic complainer! This post teeters on a fine line concerning politics and it wasn't my intent to push that side of it. If people don't know where you're coming from things can get misunderstood and quickly heated. I simply was inquiring about the article. Anyway, it would be foolish to let a conversation about a Chevy come between Mopar guys! :) Hope all is well! :2thumbs:
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on March 26, 2009, 05:44:47 PM
QuoteI think the government of the day would have been looking for a way to interfere with the evil car companies no matter what. The bailout money gave them leverage far more than the price of gas.
If the govt just stepped back & did nothing, then regular supply & demand would eventually crash the domestic economy with high gas prices (just because of sheer market forces).
:shruggy:
Mike,
I'm sorry that makes no sense and goes against the laws of supply and demand. If the price of a commodity exceeds demand, the price goes down to meet demand. If supply can't keep up with demand, the price goes up. Oil/gas will only go as high as the demand allows it to. If demand goes down, the price goes down. Commodities will seek a balance unless artificial forces come into play.
I know we're not supposed to discuss politics on this board so how about we bring the topic back on track?
Will GM release the Camaro?
it's a done deal, i guess you didn't notice... :lol:
I can't imagine driving a 1/2 engine car! I have always had a V8 RWD car/truck. WHY WHY WHY is the only thing I like in cars sooooooooooo bad? (no answers please, I know why.) :-\
If they don't sell 'em, what are they going to do with all of these:
http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i249/lumpy92/Camaro/
You're friend is yanking your chain, I think.
For what it's worth, I couldn't find any articles on the car and driver web site like he described.
One of the black Camaros is mine! :yesnod:
Pat
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i249/lumpy92/Camaro/DSCF2176.jpg)
Remember we got the same kinda' thread about two weeks before the '09 Chally was released, some guy came on here talking about he heard that because of the high gas prices they decided not to release it...
A couple moments of simple google reasearch would lay these rumors to rest, just like a couple words in the search box will reveal a treasure trove of past threads about pretty much anything charger related,.. :scope: :shruggy:
I think folks especially new members just want to start a thread or discussion.. :callme: or stir the pot.. :stirthepot: :chatting:
I guess it's pretty much human nature. :icon_smile_wink:
I have always loved camaros and I own a 71 SS but I think thease new ones are ugly. This is what they should of built (http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff218/Jeremey72/100_0835.jpg)
So here's the thread i was remembering which didn't turn out to be true...
Topic: Cerebrus Strangles 2008 Challenger:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33430.0.html
as regards which Camaro they should have built, they know the '69 is the most popular so they went that way..
the last Issue of Collector Automobile has an extensive article on their design rational. A great Magazine worth every penny CA is...
and another topic about how the greenies are gonna kill the Chally..
Greens hate new Challenger (hard to imagine)
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,29806.0.html
Quote from: Brock Samson on March 26, 2009, 08:18:41 PM
A couple moments of simple google reasearch would lay these rumors to rest, just like a couple words in the search box will reveal a treasure trove of past threads about pretty much anything charger related,.. :scope: :shruggy:
I think folks especially new members just want to start a thread or discussion.. :callme: or stir the pot.. :stirthepot: :chatting:
I guess it's pretty much human nature. :icon_smile_wink:
Wow Brock, you sure assume a lot. I asked if anyone's read the article because I hadn't. My friend that DID read the article summarized it as I mentioned, but I asked for feedback from ANYONE ELSE who read the article. He said the article is on page 13 of the April addition of Car and Driver. And for your information I did read other threads but none of them mentioned their concerns about bringing the car to market.
I guess because I'm a new member I'm just not as worthy of speaking as you and I see that when you do you have to make sure everyone knows it. Sorry to have caused you so much trouble. :bawling: If I were you I'd just ignore any other threads that us new-bies start because they will probably just waste your time. :blahblah:
QuoteI'm sorry that makes no sense and goes against the laws of supply and demand. If the price of a commodity exceeds demand, the price goes down to meet demand. If supply can't keep up with demand, the price goes up. Oil/gas will only go as high as the demand allows it to. If demand goes down, the price goes down. Commodities will seek a balance unless artificial forces come into play.
You said "oil & gas will only go up as high as the demand allows it to."
And I agree. But the rules of the free market are exactly the problem now.
Our own US population is growing. China/ India/Russia/Middle east all add up to demanding just as much oil as we do already, and their demand will be absolutely EXPLODING in the coming decades.
More people competing for the same supply of oil + worldwide daily oil supply is struggling to remain flat, let alone increase any more = prices can still rise even when people all use less individually.
In the long run it's either higher CAFE standards or higher pump prices for the domestic US population. We'll be very lucky if it's not both.
---------------------------------------------------------
QuoteI know we're not supposed to discuss politics on this board so how about we bring the topic back on track?
Will GM release the Camaro?
Yeah, they will most assuredly release it. It'll just be quickly squeezed down in size & power in the coming years like everything else. It looks like the 1970-74 Challenger experience all over again.
None of what you're talking about with oil and cars matters as the very near future is Hydrogen powered fuel cells for cars. It's already out there and on the way. They are building Hydrogen stations in my state as we speak.
I think starting a thread about it is the whole reason we have a forum whether we've discussed it before or not. To me, this is just a car club meeting that is always open and a different form of communicating. The car buddies I meet weekly in person talk about the same things all the time too and the new Camaro, politics, and the price structure of oil and its effects are all hot topics with them as well. So Brock keep telling us we've already discussed this, Mike stay on that soapbox, and Blue68 keep bringing up things to discuss; it's all good guys! (everyone is wrong except for me anway :nana:)
Oh, and I think the 2010 Camaro will be a go, the CAFE standards will kill the Camaro and the Challenger, fuel prices and CAFE will BOTH go up, Oswald didn't act alone, Obama now knows the secret of Area 51 but we aren't ready for the technology, Led Zeppelin knew damned well that playing Stairway backwards invokes Satan and how in the Hell do they get the gooey center into the Caramilk bars?
Quote from: Ghoste on March 27, 2009, 11:10:10 AM
I think starting a thread about it is the whole reason we have a forum whether we've discussed it before or not. To me, this is just a car club meeting that is always open and a different form of communicating. The car buddies I meet weekly in person talk about the same things all the time too and the new Camaro, politics, and the price structure of oil and its effects are all hot topics with them as well. So Brokc keep telling us we've already discussed this, Mike stay on that soapbox, and Blue68 keep bringing up things to discuss; it's all good guys! (everyone isl wrong except for me anway :nana:)
Oh, and I think the 2010 Camaro will be a go, the CAFE standards will kill the Camaro and the Challenger, fuel prices and CAFE will BOTH go up, Oswald didn't act alone, Obama now knows the secret of Area 51 but we aren't ready for the technology and Led Zeppelin knew damned well that playing Stairway backwards invokes Satan and how in the Hell do they get the gooey center into the Caramilk bars?
All good stuff, but Oswald was alone. Sorry.
Quote from: BLUE68RT4ME on March 26, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
Quote from: Brock Samson on March 26, 2009, 08:18:41 PM
A couple moments of simple google reasearch would lay these rumors to rest, just like a couple words in the search box will reveal a treasure trove of past threads about pretty much anything charger related,.. :scope: :shruggy:
I think folks especially new members just want to start a thread or discussion.. :callme: or stir the pot.. :stirthepot: :chatting:
I guess it's pretty much human nature. :icon_smile_wink:
Wow Brock, you sure assume a lot. I asked if anyone's read the article because I hadn't. My friend that DID read the article summarized it as I mentioned, but I asked for feedback from ANYONE ELSE who read the article. He said the article is on page 13 of the April addition of Car and Driver. And for your information I did read other threads but none of them mentioned their concerns about bringing the car to market.
I guess because I'm a new member I'm just not as worthy of speaking as you and I see that when you do you have to make sure everyone knows it. Sorry to have caused you so much trouble. :bawling: If I were you I'd just ignore any other threads that us new-bies start because they will probably just waste your time. :blahblah:
pretty much
At least now we have a clear understanding.
::) Brock brock brock. Thats not nice. :rotz:
here's a gift from me to you.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1MQW5e6KcE :icon_smile_wink:
"Dragula"
Dead I am the one, Exterminating son
Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze
Dead I am the sky, watching angels cry
While they slowly turn, conquering the worm
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Dig through the ditches,
Burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Dead I am the pool, spreading from the fool
Weak and want you need, nowhere as you bleed
Dead I am the rat, feast upon the cat
Tender is the fur, dying as you purr
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Do it baby, Do it baby
Do it baby, Do it baby
Burn like an animal
Dead I am the life, dig into the skin
Knuckle crack the bone, 21 to win
Dead I am the dog, hound of hell you cry
Devil on your back, I can never die
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Do it baby, Do it baby
Do it baby, Do it baby
Burn like an animal
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
Dig through the ditches,
And burn through the witches
I slam in the back of my
Dragula
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IqWOPMHbs0E/SQCBFKY8vyI/AAAAAAAABMQ/Mz9BM2U5ubE/s1600/munsters_koach_dragula.jpg
Guess I'll be keeping my 5.9 ram because I refuse to drive a hybrid. Even when gas was $4.00+ around me I just kept it tuned up and used discression before I put my foot in it. Does this include diesels too?
I'm sure it does but I can't see this ever coming to fruition on trucks. How on earth will farming and construction survive without the torque? So, you get better milage but take two trips? ::)
Anyway, I think it's time to get the cylinder index up as high as you can now! :icon_smile_big: Well, any time is a good time but now even more. I might start looking for a good used truck after I'm done with taxes.
How's the 5.9 treating you?
QuoteI'm sure it does but I can't see this ever coming to fruition on trucks. How on earth will farming and construction survive without the torque? So, you get better milage but take two trips? Roll Eyes
I don't know either. The CAFE standards will absolutely destroy trucks for their real intended use as beasts of burden.
I don't know how they will fix that. I really hope that they will somehow come up with a better form of truck/car separation in the regulations. This whole problem started because they let leather-upholstered, DVD-players-in-the-headrests Ford Explorers keep their "farm vehicle" kind of CAFE exemptions.
It occurs to me that maybe they could use Diesel & gasoline fuel as the difference. Maybe they could set some rules about what kind of vehicle is allowed to get a diesel-powered motor, and then let the CAFE standards only apply to the gasoline ones. Just write the rules in such a way that diesels are not practical for soccer-mom duty anymore, and it could work.
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on March 27, 2009, 05:22:25 PM
QuoteI'm sure it does but I can't see this ever coming to fruition on trucks. How on earth will farming and construction survive without the torque? So, you get better milage but take two trips? Roll Eyes
It occurs to me that maybe they could use Diesel & gasoline fuel as the difference. Maybe they could set some rules about what kind of vehicle is allowed to get a diesel-powered motor, and then let the CAFE standards only apply to the gasoline ones. Just write the rules in such a way that diesels are not practical for soccer-mom duty anymore, and it could work.
I think it would have to be by gross weight or towing capacity because many small cars are moving to diesel engines. Not all large farm vehicles are diesel either. Most of my family lives on farms and yet I'm the only one with a diesel pickup.
Troy
Brock's job here is to monitor the site 24/7 and make sure none of the information repeats itself.
(http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/URBAN6365/applaudissement.gif)
Yeah, I've thought about the diesel in cars thing. But it does seem like there is diesel showing up in small cars & huge trucks but nothing in the middle. The differentiation could still be made.
The rules would not be retroactive either. I would think that between that and just reclassifying things, the split could feasibly be made through fuel type. The point would not be to control things by jacking up the price of certain fuels, but rather to CAFE-police how the new vehicles are built. Just like now.
-----------------------------------
Towing capacity and/or vehicular tonnage could certainly work too. Although we might discover that using raw GVW alone might create some bass-ackwards incentive to make the borderline vehicles HEAVIER because of it if we're not careful!
Quote from: BLUE68RT4ME on March 26, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
Quote from: Brock Samson on March 26, 2009, 08:18:41 PM
A couple moments of simple google reasearch would lay these rumors to rest, just like a couple words in the search box will reveal a treasure trove of past threads about pretty much anything charger related,.. :scope: :shruggy:
I think folks especially new members just want to start a thread or discussion.. :callme: or stir the pot.. :stirthepot: :chatting:
I guess it's pretty much human nature. :icon_smile_wink:
Wow Brock, you sure assume a lot. I asked if anyone's read the article because I hadn't. My friend that DID read the article summarized it as I mentioned, but I asked for feedback from ANYONE ELSE who read the article. He said the article is on page 13 of the April addition of Car and Driver. And for your information I did read other threads but none of them mentioned their concerns about bringing the car to market.
I guess because I'm a new member I'm just not as worthy of speaking as you and I see that when you do you have to make sure everyone knows it. Sorry to have caused you so much trouble. :bawling: If I were you I'd just ignore any other threads that us new-bies start because they will probably just waste your time. :blahblah:
Not trying to give you a rough time here Blue, but I just checked my April '09 issue of Car and Driver and all thats on page 13 is an advertisement for Victory Motorcycles. :shruggy:
Then I will go through every new magazine issued for April until I find it. Sorry.
I get an automotive trade magazine at work...what they did say is that they're going to postpone the release of the Z-28 and convertible versions of the Camaro. The base, RS and SS are a go. The base V-6 has 300 hp the SS is 400 and 426hp! The base V-6 is supposed to be nice motor and you can get a manual transmission with it.
Article from Autoweek:
General Motors has delayed indefinitely the Chevrolet Camaro convertible and Z28 high-performance variant to save cash, sources say.
GM also has tabled plans to add a four-cylinder engine version of the Camaro. GM is starting to ship the Camaro to dealers this week.
Insiders say executives hope to restore the convertible to GM's product plan. GM originally had wanted to launch a convertible in 2010 and bring out the Z28 soon afterward.
"Neither one has been outright canceled," says Terry Rhadigan, a Chevrolet spokesman. Rhadigan said GM will seek to bring out the convertible in 2011.
The Z28 was to have challenged two rival performance muscle cars--the Shelby GT500 version of the Ford Mustang and Dodge's Challenger SRT8.
Plans for a four-cylinder engine for the Camaro lost appeal as gasoline prices dipped and the Camaro scored well on federal fuel-economy tests.
Last year, Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said GM was considering the same four-cylinder engine for the Camaro that GM uses in the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters. The 2.0-liter turbocharged direct-injection engine is rated at 260 hp in those cars.
Gene Stefanyshyn, GM's vehicle line executive for performance cars, said cheaper gasoline played a role in shelving the smaller engine.
"We're looking at it. We don't have anything approved," Stefanyshyn said at a press event last week. "But with gas $1.78 a gallon, we have to weigh where we put our poker chips."
Another source familiar with GM product plans confirmed that the four-cylinder for the Camaro is dead for "the time being."
Not only have fuel prices leveled out, but GM surpassed its own estimated highway mileage rating of 27 mpg for the V6 Camaro. The EPA last week rated that vehicle at 29 mpg in highway driving.
The strong fuel-economy performance of the 3.6-liter, 304-hp V6 reduces the need to offer a four-cylinder engine, sources say.
GM also offers a 6.2-liter V8 in two versions, making 400 hp and 426 hp.
GM began building the Camaro, which starts at $22,995, including shipping, on March 16. GM estimates that it will take until May or June to fill the 14,000 sold orders in hand.
Quote from: keepat on March 26, 2009, 08:10:24 PM
One of the black Camaros is mine! :yesnod:
Pat
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i249/lumpy92/Camaro/DSCF2176.jpg)
I hope for Chevy's sake that the Camaro doesn't end up like the Superbird "On the showroom floor and three years later"
Exactly! The last thing I want is any of the big 3 to fall. :yesnod:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,48087.0.html :shruggy:
Good find Brock, but that was before the government bailout and the bailout is the reason I brought it up. I was curious if people had heard any more on how things would be affected by the government throwing money at the car companies. Would they actually be able to force/influence them not to release this car, or versions of it? My concern is that they're going to try to take a certain amount of control over them like they are the financial industry. Seriously, no beef with you Brock. Sorry if I wasn't clear before. :2thumbs:
What!? No beef?.. where's the beef?!
Naw,.. it's all good,.. since i been on this site religiously since the beginning and the othe site D-C.com before the implosion i am quite familiar with most of the threads and when i need to know something i just do a search, ussually several a day... I mess with folks alot, sometimes just playing the devils advocate as the folks who git annoyed with me are quite aware,.. huh?.. I used to be the spelling and punctuation nazi, intill it was pointed out to me with a few, ok several, pokes in the eye with a sharp stick, that I have my own style of sphellin and punktuation.. :icon_smile_blackeye:
but these these days i like to go around and critisize the newbies though i've been quite good at stayin out of threads where i have no business,.. and some others have picked up the gauntlent, err,.. whatever..
It's all fine,.. me an Arizona Dave got into a shovefest a couple mos. back...
Part of the reason for my being so anal pardon the term, is that i used to do alot of fact checking and research at my old newspaper job, and i got alot of grief if i was errant or sloppy in the office, ussually shamed right out in public... infront of everybody,.. that's what passes for training in journalism...
anyhow,.. i'd like to see more pics of your ride and hear of your plans and progress...
or maybe there's a thread I missed... like this one... perhaps.. :scratchchin:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,55034.msg611414.html#msg611414