Well just spent two more hours in the garage with more tests still can't get any spark. replaced the coil the ballist resistor the orange box checked wiring from the ECU pug to dist for continuity the adjusted the reluctor the sensor to .008 ( seemed loose). A little Flash rust on reluctor wheel? wiring seems to be good from the ECU plug down to the distributor. Rotor and cap look ok. Getting 11.v to coil in run position. Ohms tested balllist resistor showed1.0. Tried to get accurate readings for the wires coming out of the center wire harness block on the firewall. Is that the bulkhead? Was only getting three solid readings. When checking the rest of the wires my voltmeter just bounced around is that part of the problem? Does anybody have a diagram that shows what wire is which on that wiring harness? Any thoughts or ideas based on what I've said it would be greatly appreciated I'm pretty probably missing something. I also want to think NACHO for all his help so far. Ive learned a lot about the ignition system and know a lot more about It than when I started. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I went through all this one time , car ran awesome one day , parked it up in garage , went to fire it up the next morning , no start , went through everything & then some , swapped wiring , coils , ECU s , ballast resistors , even plugs & leads & ignition switch , :lol: yeah yeah I know , but I changed everything else so might as well have done these :lol: , only way it would fire up , was if I swapped back to the points distributor . turned out , it was the magnetic pick up in the MP distributor , took the cap & rotor off , & the metal strip was loose , that part you stick the feeler gauge between that & the reculator !. must of broken in side :shruggy: , fitted a new pick up , fired up straight away :yesnod:
Really! I wonder if that's what I've got? I was told to make sure it was .008 so when I took the cap and rotor off I touched the sensor and it wiggled around a little bit like it was loose. So that's not supposed to move it all right? How hard was it to replace that what how do you replace it? I really appreciate it!
Actually after re-reading your post that whole sensor moves around a little bit not just the little metal strip
I mean no offence , with out actually being there , its hard to , guess or see whats happening . silly question I know ! have you had the car running with the MP electronic ignition set up ? have you done anything since it was running ?
what year is your charger ?
first picture below is for a 69 ,
N light blue is ignition run , it actually has a white tracer & changers to a solid blue somewhere near the voltage regulator from memory
Q brown is ignition start .
I assume you have checked for a spark , with a spark plug connected to a plug lead & grounding it out while holding it with insulated pliers or a rubber glove ( if your not feeling brave ) , while cranking the motor ? ,
its easy a 10 minute job max to change pick up in the distributor , remove distributor first ! & mount in a vice
no offense taken! This car has been a complete learning experience for me and there is so much I don't know about it. I'm sure there's obvious symptoms that I am unaware of that other people can pick up on right away.It's a 68 charger 452stroker with the Mopar electronic ignition with the orange box. Ran fine for 10 years. Drove fine in December.... Parked it....went to fired up and January no spark. Thus the fun began. Replaced the orange box replace the ballast resistor (showing 1 ohms) replaced the coil ( showing 11.5 v in run position on both terminal posts, checked grounds. Did continuity tests from the ECU plug to the distributor showed 275 ohm. no spark at the distributor cap when I pull the wire out and crank the motor. The single blue wire on the ballast resistor is showing around 11 1/2 V when the key is in run position. The blue/brown wire on the driver side of ballast resistor is showing 8 V in the run position (problem?). I noticed yesterday that the voltage on the blue/brown spliced wire on driver side of the ballast resistor starts around eight and starts dropping when cranking. Nacho, who has been very helpful, believes somethings Mixed up in the wiring and I am inclined to believe him since I should be showing 12 volts when cranking. One new discovery was that I am supposed to have a green wire (tach) and a yellow and black wire on the negative post of the coil, and the blue and black wire on the positive side of the coil. Unless I'm mistaken for the last 10 years I've run it with both wires hooked to the positive terminal. Unless I'm remembering it wrong when I started replacing parts and put it back together. I put the yellow and black wire with the green wire on the negative post yesterday but still no spark. I was checking bulkhead connections on the center wire block that appears to run to the motor and ignition system. Three of the wires gave me solid ratings of around 11 1/2 V the rest of the wires that are next to the fusible link gave me an inaccurate readings where the numbers on the multimeter just kept bouncing up and down. Another thing I recently read was that my ammeter gauge shouldnt bounce up-and-down when I drive the car. could this be related or just a separate issue? Hopefully this information is not overwhelming and it provides clues to those more knowledgeable about this and I am. Thanks for your help
Have you ran a primary and secondary resistance test on the coil ? Make sure the battery is fully charged as well ! ;) The 11.5V in the run position is a bit low.
Ron
How do you run the primary and secondary tests on the coil? Ps I replaced the battery this morning cause the other one wAs 8 years old and would lose charge after a few cranks.
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 03, 2016, 11:23:40 AM
How do you run the primary and secondary tests on the coil?
With a multimeter set on OHMS ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8vSwfnX3Xc
Ron
Lol!!! Thanks for the video! I learned a lot! I have a msd blaster II coil. The primary test came up .5 ohms. The secondary was 4.59 ohms.
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 03, 2016, 09:46:51 AM
The blue/brown wire on the driver side of ballast resistor is showing 8 V in the run position (problem?). I noticed yesterday that the voltage on the blue/brown spliced wire on driver side of the ballast resistor starts around eight and starts dropping when cranking. Nacho, who has been very helpful, believes somethings Mixed up in the wiring and I am inclined to believe him since I should be showing 12 volts when cranking.
Brown line ( and everything spliced to ) must show 4.5 to 9 volts in run, and blue line must show about same batt reading while key in run... When cranking just right the opposite.
Of course, if your coil + lead of coil is blue, like all pre 70 cars are, it should show the brown line test. Since 70 this wire become brown.
As far I understood on this post, are you getting 8 volts on brown wire at ballast with key in RUN ? That's about right then. This same reading should be shown at + lead of coil. Then cranking should get around same batt voltage.
No matter which side of ballast is. Ballast conections can be reversed, but wires will show the same.
Quote from: firefighter3931 on April 03, 2016, 10:24:44 AM
Have you ran a primary and secondary resistance test on the coil ? Make sure the battery is fully charged as well ! ;) The 11.5V in the run position is a bit low.
Ron
It should be even less in RUN! Batt reading at that post must be when cranking
One question!
Have you checked if pick up coil its GROUNDED? Check for that, with one of the tester leads against dist body, check with both terminals on dist pick up coil plug. This piece must be isolated from chassis ground.
In addition, the pickup in the distributor should make some AC voltage when it spins, around 0.2 to 0.5 volts. Check to see if you are getting that at the distributor's connector and then at ECU connector. Also at the ECU connector, see if you are getting 12 volts at Pin "1." Although the ballast resistor is bypassed when starting, the ballast resistor can be bypassed temporarily with a jumper wire to take it out of the equation. The quicker this is done, the better
just to add
ECU voltage must get reversed voltage reading on both stages from the + lead of coil gets with ballast on line ( not jumped )
I am going to adopt Nacho. Love this kid. :cheers: :2thumbs:
Eeehm thank you, dunno why But thank you :)
Not a kid anymore, 40 YO. LOL
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on April 08, 2016, 02:34:24 PM
just to add
ECU voltage must get reversed voltage reading on both stages from the + lead of coil gets with ballast on line ( not jumped )
Edited a bit this reply but still dunno if sounds good what I'm trying to say.
While ECU gets 12 volts in RUN and coil gets 4.5 to 9 volts on same stage, in START the readings are backwards, while the ballast is correctly connected.
Quote from: metallicareload99 on April 05, 2016, 11:26:16 AM
In addition, the pickup in the distributor should make some AC voltage when it spins, around 0.2 to 0.5 volts. Check to see if you are getting that at the distributor's connector and then at ECU connector. Also at the ECU connector, see if you are getting 12 volts at Pin "1." Although the ballast resistor is bypassed when starting, the ballast resistor can be bypassed temporarily with a jumper wire to take it out of the equation. The quicker this is done, the better
.
OK so should I unplug the ECU and use of voltmeter and stick it in the cavity number one of the ECu plug to make sure it's getting 12 V? I just want to make sure I'm understanding these tests correctly. Also I'm unsure how to run the jumper wire b
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on April 04, 2016, 07:13:23 AM
One question!
Have you checked if pick up coil its GROUNDED? Check for that, with one of the tester leads against dist body, check with both terminals on dist pick up coil plug. This piece must be isolated from chassis ground.
.
Hey nacho! I'm unsure how to run this test. To test for proper grounding to the pick up coil do I need to use a test light or a voltmeter? Do I have to unplug the two wires that run to the pick up coil or do you leave them connected and pull the distributor cap and use one lead against distributor body when the other lead touches the wires inside the distributor. ? Does the key need to be in the run position?
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 17, 2016, 08:03:27 AM
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on April 04, 2016, 07:13:23 AM
One question!
Have you checked if pick up coil its GROUNDED? Check for that, with one of the tester leads against dist body, check with both terminals on dist pick up coil plug. This piece must be isolated from chassis ground.
.
Hey nacho! I'm unsure how to run this test. To test for proper grounding to the pick up coil do I need to use a test light or a voltmeter? Do I have to unplug the two wires that run to the pick up coil or do you leave them connected and pull the distributor cap and use one lead against distributor body when the other lead touches the wires inside the distributor. ? Does the key need to be in the run position?
Yea know, if you listed your state and town you just might have a neighbor here willing to help. :Twocents: :cheers: :2thumbs:
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 17, 2016, 07:55:19 AM
OK so should I unplug the ECU and use of voltmeter and stick it in the cavity number one of the ECu plug to make sure it's getting 12 V? I just want to make sure I'm understanding these tests correctly. Also I'm unsure how to run the jumper wire b
It sound like you get no spark regardless if the key is in the run or start position so I doubt the resistor is the issue. You can run a jumper wire with alligator clips at the base of the resistor's spade terminals, but don't let it run like that becuase the coil will burn up quickly. Just see if it will start and run, if yes shut it off immediately and get a new resistor, if it doesn't run still you got other problems.
To see if you are getting 12 volts to the ECU, unplug the connector and turn the key to run, you should see 12 volts in one of the cavities. While you are at it, might want to get an idea of what kind of signal you're getting from the distributor at the ECU plug. You'll have to determine which cavities in the ECU plug are from the distributor but looking at the diagram above should give you the idea. With the distributor spinning you should see some AC voltage, around 0.333 or so. You can either remove the distributor and turn the rotor by hand, or last time I did it I left the distributor installed and used a remote starter switch to crank it over.
As for testing wether or not the distribution pickup is grounded I believe you'd use a voltmeter set to resistance/ohms. Unplug the connector and have one of your leads on the distributor body as a ground. Probe the terminals of the distributor connector, you should get extremely high readings or it'll show "infinity." I believe those are the results you would want. Anything else would indicate the pickup is shorting to ground
OK thanks. Well I ran some test with a new battery. Battery was reading 12.32 V. I tested cavity five while cranking and got .035 V. I tested cavity four while cranking and got .030 V. I tested the ECU plugcavity one with the key in run position and got 11.65 V. (This is the five pin wiring harness with the three cavity defunct since the orang box is a four pin). I then tested cavity two and got 11.65 V. I then disconnected the pick up coil plug-in that runs from the wire harness into the distributor. I put my multimeter to the ohm setting, then ran the positive lead to both ends of the plug-in. First the gray then the black wire while the ground probe was held to the base of the distributor body just above the block. Both readings read ol. Do any of these readings set off any alarms?
I tested the ballast resistor again. With the battery rating 12.26 V I put the key in the run position. the blue wire on the ballast resistor was 11.56 V and the brown/blue wire was 8.35. I tested again and crank the brown/blue wire showed 10.68 V and the blue wire showed 17 mV. I check the coil positive post while cranking and it showed 10.56 V
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 17, 2016, 04:02:56 PM
I tested the ballast resistor again. With the battery rating 12.26 V I put the key in the run position. the blue wire on the ballast resistor was 11.56 V and the brown/blue wire was 8.35. I tested again and crank the brown/blue wire showed 10.68 V and the blue wire showed 17 mV. I check the coil positive post while cranking and it showed 10.56 V
Nothing seems too out of the ordinary, except if you are indeed getting battery voltage @ pin 2 with the ignition switch in the run position. Because of the ballast resistor I believe you should see lower voltage on that pin with the key in the run position. At any rate, it should still start in that scenario, just you will eventually burn up the coil. What voltage does coil negative show when cranking?
I had the same problem so I took out the electronic ign. and put my old dist. coil back in and my car started right up. Maybe a thought just to see :popcrn:
Did you try jumping 12 volts to the coil? If you put 12 to the coil and it starts , you'd rule out the coil/dist. Correct?? Then just work your way back. So where do you live? As posted earlier , someone may be close.
Quote from: metallicareload99 on April 17, 2016, 12:20:31 PM
With the distributor spinning you should see some AC voltage, around 0.333 or so. You can either remove the distributor and turn the rotor by hand, or last time I did it I left the distributor installed and used a remote starter switch to crank it over.
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 17, 2016, 03:43:47 PM
I then disconnected the pick up coil plug-in that runs from the wire harness into the distributor. I put my multimeter to the ohm setting, then ran the positive lead to both ends of the plug-in. First the gray then the black wire while the ground probe was held to the base of the distributor body just above the block. Both readings read ol. Do any of these readings set off any alarms?
I have been following this but not chiming in because it looks like those responding have better suggestions than I would. I have a question about the tests and specifically the test of the magnetic pickup on the distributor. I did not see that you tested the AC signal coming out. I saw the ground test, and others, also that you have tested the wiring, swapped coil, ecu, ballast resistor, etc.... which I assume since they are new and passing tests so far, means they are good.
Hey guys it's been a while sorry for no replies. Been severely busy at work and haven't had time to mess with the car. I checked a couple things today while cranking. The negative coil was showing a solid 10.30 V. When I run a test mobile it shows that it's getting power while it's cranking and when it's in run. And never flickers is that a problem? The pick up coil is the proper .008 inches. I disconnected the pick up coil wires and check while cranking. The black wire with the white stripe showed 11.26 V and the gray wire showed 5.80 V. I am starting to get really frustrated with this and losing hope LOL. If anybody has any more suggestions or if any of these readings is raising alarms let me know. By the way I'm in central Illinois.
Another question is am I doing damage to my rotating assembly cranking on it trying to get it to start. Should I just break down and buy an MSD system and try that?
You have no spark at all?? You have power at the resistor , correct? How far after that (how close to the dist) do you have power? Was this a swap ? Resto ? Upgrade ? Or a problem that just started?
Ya. I've laid the number one plug on the block(I double checked to make sure the plug was getting grounded) no spark tried a different plug... No spark. Pulled the distributor wire out of the center of the cap to try and arc it... No spark. Made a different dist wire no spark. The ballast resistor is getting power. Already bought a new one and tried it. Same with the ECU. It was. Running fine in dec.... and in jan. It wouldn't start and the fun began lol.
If the test of the coil you did shows the coil is good, then it should produce a spark from its secondary windings when a current is sent through the primary windings. This makes me wonder if the signal to the coil (Which I thought came from the reluctor and sensor and is that 0.333 volt alternating current signal that metallicareload99 mentioned looking for a few posts back) is just not happening (maybe a bad sensor???). You checked the distance between the reluctor and the sensor, but did you check to see that this AC signal is coming out of the distributor and being sent to the ECU? I may be completely off base because I really do not understand this, but my guess is that someone will be able to pipe in to tell you or if there are other tests of other parts of this system.
I tested ac voltage in cavity four when crankin and tha showed .030v. Cavity 5 showed .035 while cranking. It's less than the .333 volts that metallic posted was sufficient. I wonder if it's not getting enough voltage
Unfortunately, I do not know the answer to this. I did a search to see if I could find anything and came up empty. I wonder if it makes sense to start a new thread with a title that asks what is the minimum signal voltage from distributor to trigger ECU and coil? There has to be a solution to your problem and I can only imagine how frustrating it is to troubleshoot. You might also PM some of the people who mentioned the sensor and reluctor to ask them directly for help. Maybe they have missed the latest part of the thread.
OK but I do appreciate your help and help her bail so far. Seems like I should be getting spark with all the readings I'm getting seem to be pretty close to what people say they should be. I wonder if it's something as simple as the bulkhead connections a little bit corroded. I Not sure how to disconnect that.
My thinking is as follows: You don't have spark from the coil, so you cannot have it from the distributor. If the key on and off positions both send a signal to the ballast resistor and the key on position turns the starter over, then the circuit from your key to the engine should be fine. That much I am pretty sure of. I also believe that the readings on the coil you made indicate that the coil is good and getting sufficient current. So if the coil is not generating a spark then I suspect it is whatever part of the system drives that. The only thing I see from what you have measured that is different from the signal voltage coming from the distributor sensor is about 10 times lower than what was quoted earlier. I am not sure if this is enough to trigger the ignition. So that is why I came back to that. I suspect it is either the sensor or the ECU.
Is yours just like the 4 pin drawing? If so , get a helper (to try and start it. Run a jumper to the + side of coil ,see if it starts. If not ,pull apart the plug , run a jumper to the pos wire going in and the other to ground. No start , I'd dump that system and go to a Mallory or Acell. Any swaps coming up by you?? That's just me. Checking it is free!
Quote from: poppa on April 25, 2016, 05:48:15 PM
Is yours just like the 4 pin drawing? If so , get a helper (to try and start it. Run a jumper to the + side of coil ,see if it starts. If not ,pull apart the plug , run a jumper to the pos wire going in and the other to ground. No start , I'd dump that system and go to a Mallory or Acell. Any swaps coming up by you?? That's just me. Checking it is free!
Mine actually looks like a five pin but the cavity that would be number three iIs disconnected(the Oneore clock position wire was manufactured cut. So to make sure that I understand correctly you run a wire from the positive battery terminal to the positive coil terminal and then do you run a wire from the negative post on the coil to a ground and then try to start it?
Also on the other test you describe, I need to disconnect the ECU plug, run a wire from the battery positive post to the number four cavity and then run a negative ground wire to the number five cavity?
Quote from: XH29N0G on April 25, 2016, 05:14:20 PM
My thinking is as follows: You don't have spark from the coil, so you cannot have it from the distributor. If the key on and off positions both send a signal to the ballast resistor and the key on position turns the starter over, then the circuit from your key to the engine should be fine. That much I am pretty sure of. I also believe that the readings on the coil you made indicate that the coil is good and getting sufficient current. So if the coil is not generating a spark then I suspect it is whatever part of the system drives that. The only thing I see from what you have measured that is different from the signal voltage coming from the distributor sensor is about 10 times lower than what was quoted earlier. I am not sure if this is enough to trigger the ignition. So that is why I came back to that. I suspect it is either the sensor or the ECU.
[/quot
I think you're onto something there you may be right
NO. Jumper from battery to + side of coil only.
SEcond one from coil neg to dist pos wire , other dist wire to ground (if coil is working).
Or..... you could hook up a test light. Ground test light, turn on ignition , touch to + on coil. If it lights you have power TO the coil. Now have a helper turn it over while touching to - side of coil. Should pulse (flash). If it flashes , it's something in the circuit AFTER the coil. If no flash but it lights on + it's the coil. You had power on both sides of the ballast , correct?
Quote from: poppa on April 25, 2016, 07:24:59 PM
Or..... you could hook up a test light. Ground test light, turn on ignition , touch to + on coil. If it lights you have power TO the coil. Now have a helper turn it over while touching to - side of coil. Should pulse (flash). If it flashes , it's something in the circuit AFTER the coil. If no flash but it lights on + it's the coil. You had power on both sides of the ballast , correct?
Yes I had power on both sides of the ballast resistor. When I use the test bulb on the coil in both run and cranking , the negative side would just stay lit...it didn't flash. it also read roughly the same voltage as the positive
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 25, 2016, 09:20:56 PM
Quote from: poppa on April 25, 2016, 07:24:59 PM
Or..... you could hook up a test light. Ground test light, turn on ignition , touch to + on coil. If it lights you have power TO the coil. Now have a helper turn it over while touching to - side of coil. Should pulse (flash). If it flashes , it's something in the circuit AFTER the coil. If no flash but it lights on + it's the coil. You had power on both sides of the ballast , correct?
Yes I had power on both sides of the ballast resistor. When I use the test bulb on the coil in both run and cranking , the negative side would just stay lit...it didn't flash. it also read roughly the same voltage as the positive
Hi,
I would think based on the light not flashing and the same voltage on both coil positive and negative there are four possibilities. 1- the ECU is bad, 2- the ECU is not grounded, 3- the ECU is not being triggered by the pick -up coil in the distributor, or 4- the wire/connection between the ECU pin and coil negative is open.
A test meter in the OHMS position can be used to check #'s 3 and 4.
Do you have a meter and do you know how to use it in the OHMS position?
Have you checked the pickup ? Run a resistance test on the pickup and see what you've got. You should have around 300 ohms but the acceptable range is 150-900 :yesnod:
It sounds like there is no signal reaching the ECU :scratchchin:
To run the test : Unplug the distributor and stick the multimeter probes on the orange and black pickup leads to get the ohms.
Ron
What they said. All associated grounds clean and tight?
Do you have the two prong plug between the module and dist ? Did you pull it apart to check the connection?
Bite the bullet and go buy a new points dist.(less than 80.00) Drive it ,then have a shop look at it. :Twocents:
Quote from: XH29N0G on April 24, 2016, 08:06:52 PM
If the test of the coil you did shows the coil is good, then it should produce a spark from its secondary windings when a current is sent through the primary windings. This makes me wonder if the signal to the coil (Which I thought came from the reluctor and sensor and is that 0.333 volt alternating current signal that metallicareload99 mentioned looking for a few posts back) is just not happening (maybe a bad sensor???). You checked the distance between the reluctor and the sensor, but did you check to see that this AC signal is coming out of the distributor and being sent to the ECU? I may be completely off base because I really do not understand this, but my guess is that someone will be able to pipe in to tell you or if there are other tests of other parts of this system.
I wasn't sure wether or not he tested the pickup coil with his meter set to AC voltage or DC. Even if it was set to DC I think he might see the low voltage reading he saw. If it indeed was set for DC voltage I don't know how it would interpret the AC voltage, it might have summed the intermittent V+ over some time interval, or averaged what it was reading. It seems more or less there is some signal coming out of the pickup, but I would at least do the resistance test Ron mentioned.
My guess is there is a problem with the ECU, or maybe wiring. You said the test lamp bulb stayed constantly on when it was hooked up to the coil? Does the coil get hot ever? I believe the lamp should have only blinked when the engine is turning over or running, and otherwise be off. If it stayed on that would indicate to me that a constant current is being drawn through the coil which would be a problem. Do you have a tachometer hooked up? Might want to look for a short in the wiring coming off the coil
Quote from: firefighter3931 on April 26, 2016, 08:43:31 AM
Have you checked the pickup ? Run a resistance test on the pickup and see what you've got. You should have around 300 ohms but the acceptable range is 150-900 :yesnod:
It sounds like there is no signal reaching the ECU :scratchchin:
To run the test : Unplug the distributor and stick the multimeter probes on the orange and black pickup leads to get the ohms.
Thanks Ron. I disconnected the plug and ran my ohn meter into each of the wires, the gray and the black and got 279.2 ohms
Ron
Quote from: XH29N0G on April 19, 2016, 06:18:00 AM
Quote from: metallicareload99 on April 17, 2016, 12:20:31 PM
With the distributor spinning you should see some AC voltage, around 0.333 or so. You can either remove the distributor and turn the rotor by hand, or last time I did it I left the distributor installed and used a remote starter switch to crank it over.
Quote from: Barfyspitz on April 17, 2016, 03:43:47 PM
I then disconnected the pick up coil plug-in that runs from the wire harness into the distributor. I put my multimeter to the ohm setting, then ran the positive lead to both ends of the plug-in. First the gray then the black wire while the ground probe was held to the base of the distributor body just above the block. Both readings read ol. Do any of these readings set off any alarms?
Thanks for the reply. Sorry it's been a while. I disconnected the plug from the ECu and tested voltage with the motor cranking cavity 4 showed .030v AC and cavity five showed .035 v AC
I have been following this but not chiming in because it looks like those responding have better suggestions than I would. I have a question about the tests and specifically the test of the magnetic pickup on the distributor. I did not see that you tested the AC signal coming out. I saw the ground test, and others, also that you have tested the wiring, swapped coil, ecu, ballast resistor, etc.... which I assume since they are new and passing tests so far, means they are good.
Quote from: poppa on April 18, 2016, 09:22:34 PM
Did you try jumping 12 volts to the coil? If you put 12 to the coil and it starts , you'd rule out the coil/dist. Correct?? Then just work your way back. So where do you live? As posted earlier , someone may be close.
I tried running a wire from the positive battery post to the positive coil terminal and nothing happened.
Quote from: poppa on April 25, 2016, 06:20:51 PM
SEcond one from coil neg to dist pos wire , other dist wire to ground (if coil is working).
I'm sorry but I'm still unsure how this test is run. So you take a wire from the negative coil terminal and connected to which wire coming out of the distributor? I've got a gray wire and a black wire. The gray goes to cavity four and the black goes to cavity five on the ECU plug
I checked to make sure the orange box was grounded by running my test bulb to the screw that goes through the Orange box and it lit up. I also had scratched the paint off around the mounting screw and touched it on the orange box as well and it lit up so I don't know if I need to run a ground strap or not because it looks like it's grounded.
One more thing... I disconnected the alternator and the voltage regulator to see if that would help because I've read that that might be a problem solver. No change. after putting a new battery on I tested the voltage on the ballast resistor when cranking. The blue wire on the passenger side of the ballast resistor was showing 14 V? The blue and brown wire on the driver side was showing around 10?that can't be right Can it? I pulled the wires off the ballast resistor and did another ohms check on the ballast resistor showed 1ohm
I suggest continuing to work through what Pete in NH suggested. You checked the grounding of the ECU (I assume the test light was on the positive of the battery and touching the other end to the mounting screw completed that circuit because the ECU is properly grounded.
Next would be something related to the (1) ECU, (2) the pick up or magnet on the distributor, or (3) the wiring.
The sensor on the distributor is also a coil and you know you are getting a signal, but it may be weak.
Let me work through my understanding (apologies for restating to those who know - and if you do know - please correct any mistakes so I can edit) and see if this allows for the right test.
- The distributor spins the reluctor (a magnet with 8 bumps on it). As each bump goes by the distributor sensor (pick up) it induces a field that turns into a weak electrical a/c signal that comes from the distributor.
- This signal goes to the ignition module (ECU) and if it registers with the ECU causes the ECU to ground the coil for a split second, causing a current to move through the primary windings of the coil, which induces a field around/in the secondary windings, and the secondary wirings then fire back to the distributor, which sends the spark to the right spark plug.
I think the fact that you are getting a signal means that the coil on the sensor is continuous, but the signal may still be too low to register with the ECU. knowing the ohm reading through the sensor (as suggested by firefighter) could tell whether the sensor is OK and the low reading is related to the magnet. (Earlier you set the distance between the reluctor magnet and sensor coil pick up.)
If I understand the system correctly, the ECU and the wiring should also be possible to test with the multimeter.
- My guess is that you can test the wiring from the plug that goes to the ECU by tracing the wires and checking for continuity with the ohm meter setting.
- My guess is that you can test whether the ECU is working by seeing if the pin that leads to the negative side of the coil goes to ground (on and off) when the engine is cranked over. (this could be completely wrong thinking on my part but assumes what I have written above is correct).
- Also if the above is correct, I think you should be able to fire the coil by tapping (shorting) the negative I am trying to describe something like that seen on the video at this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8mwAEQe6DM
If it were me, I would (1) test the resistance on the distributor sensor. If that is OK, I would (2) test the coil to see if it fires as in the video. If that is OK, (3) I would test the wires from the ECU to the coil for continuity. If that is OK, I might (4) try figuring out how to test the ECU for a signal, but I would probably just go buy a second ECU or replacement reluctor and swap it in for a test. For me the costs would be worth avoiding the future hassle.
Quote from: XH29N0G on May 02, 2016, 07:20:40 AM
I suggest continuing to work through what Pete in NH suggested. You checked the grounding of the ECU (I assume the test light was on the positive of the battery and touching the other end to the mounting screw completed that circuit because the ECU is properly grounded.
Next would be something related to the (1) ECU, (2) the pick up or magnet on the distributor, or (3) the wiring.
The sensor on the distributor is also a coil and you know you are getting a signal, but it may be weak.
Let me work through my understanding (apologies for restating to those who know - and if you do know - please correct any mistakes so I can edit) and see if this allows for the right test.
- The distributor spins the reluctor (a magnet with 8 bumps on it). As each bump goes by the distributor sensor (pick up) it induces a field that turns into a weak electrical a/c signal that comes from the distributor.
- This signal goes to the ignition module (ECU) and if it registers with the ECU causes the ECU to ground the coil for a split second, causing a current to move through the primary windings of the coil, which induces a field around/in the secondary windings, and the secondary wirings then fire back to the distributor, which sends the spark to the right spark plug.
I think the fact that you are getting a signal means that the coil on the sensor is continuous, but the signal may still be too low to register with the ECU. knowing the ohm reading through the sensor (as suggested by firefighter) could tell whether the sensor is OK and the low reading is related to the magnet. (Earlier you set the distance between the reluctor magnet and sensor coil pick up.)
If I understand the system correctly, the ECU and the wiring should also be possible to test with the multimeter.
- My guess is that you can test the wiring from the plug that goes to the ECU by tracing the wires and checking for continuity with the ohm meter setting.
- My guess is that you can test whether the ECU is working by seeing if the pin that leads to the negative side of the coil goes to ground (on and off) when the engine is cranked over. (this could be completely wrong thinking on my part but assumes what I have written above is correct).
- Also if the above is correct, I think you should be able to fire the coil by tapping (shorting) the negative I am trying to describe something like that seen on the video at this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8mwAEQe6DM
If it were me, I would (1) test the resistance on the distributor sensor. If that is OK, I would (2) test the coil to see if it fires as in the video. If that is OK, (3) I would test the wires from the ECU to the coil for continuity. If that is OK, I might (4) try figuring out how to test the ECU for a signal, but I would probably just go buy a second ECU or replacement reluctor and swap it in for a test. For me the costs would be worth avoiding the future hassle.
:iagree: I think you summed everything up perfectly
Your ballast resistor sounds like it's ok. Test the pickup in the distributor and the ignition coil, and if that checks out I think you have narrowed it down to the ECU, or the wiring to the ECU. Some auto parts stores can test the ECU, O'Reilly auto parts should have a tester. I have heard that the tester is a little eager to test "bad" when the ECU is ok. However, they can test a new one for you that should verify that it's good to go. Test it only a few times at most because it will overheat on the tester
Quote from: Barfyspitz on May 01, 2016, 04:37:19 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on April 26, 2016, 08:43:31 AM
Have you checked the pickup ? Run a resistance test on the pickup and see what you've got. You should have around 300 ohms but the acceptable range is 150-900 :yesnod:
It sounds like there is no signal reaching the ECU :scratchchin:
To run the test : Unplug the distributor and stick the multimeter probes on the orange and black pickup leads to get the ohms.
Ron
Thanks Ron. I disconnected the plug and ran my ohm meter into each of the wires, the gray and the black and got 279.2 ohms
Ok....the pickup checks out fine. One less thing to worry about. :yesnod:
I'm thinking either the ECU is bad or the wiring to the ECU is bad....
Check the continuity on each wire in the ECU harness next. Could be a bad connectional at the terminal or a broken wire that's not visible inside the insulation. :scope:
Ron
sorry my friend I haven't replied emails anymore, but I have being REALLY busy latelly and with lot of personal issues
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on May 03, 2016, 08:48:35 AM
sorry my friend I haven't replied emails anymore, but I have being REALLY busy latelly and with lot of personal issues
Hey nacho! I hope you're well. Ive been getting some great advice in the meantime from fellow members. I will have to check the continuity as Ron has suggested from the coil plug to the ECU plug. I believe I checked them once before and it read a low number but I'll double check. I haven't checked however, the continuity on the wires from the ECU plug to the coil. Should the reAdings be low? If my multimeter reads ol does that mean the wire is broken?
I also have a tachometer wire to the negative post on the coil. Could a defect in that wire affect the spark issue?
Quote from: Barfyspitz on May 03, 2016, 09:36:26 AM
I also have a tachometer wire to the negative post on the coil. Could a defect in that wire affect the spark issue?
Yes, a defective tachometer can certainly affect the ignition system. Try removing the tach wire and see what happens. :yesnod:
Quote from: Barfyspitz on May 03, 2016, 09:33:12 AM
I will have to check the continuity as Ron has suggested from the coil plug to the ECU plug. I believe I checked them once before and it read a low number but I'll double check. I haven't checked however, the continuity on the wires from the ECU plug to the coil. Should the reAdings be low? If my multimeter reads ol does that mean the wire is broken?
When testing for continuity you want to see zero resistance ideally or a very low number. ;)
Several years back a buddy was having intermittent start issues. The pickup wires from the distributor going into the plug were hanging on by just a few stands. This happened at the track and I found it while fiddling with the harness plug moving the wires back and forth. Mad scramble as he was being called to the lanes for eliminations. Cut both plugs off and twisted the wires together with some electrical tape to seal it up and he ran for the rest of the w/e. New distributor ordered on Monday ! :lol: The one he had in there was toast anyway. :P
Ron
Quote from: Barfyspitz on May 03, 2016, 09:33:12 AM
I will have to check the continuity as Ron has suggested from the coil plug to the ECU plug. I believe I checked them once before and it read a low number but I'll double check. I haven't checked however, the continuity on the wires from the ECU plug to the coil. Should the reAdings be low? If my multimeter reads ol does that mean the wire is broken?
That's one of the tests I told you on one of the mails.
Quote from: firefighter3931 on May 03, 2016, 10:45:46 AM
Several years back a buddy was having intermittent start issues. The pickup wires from the distributor going into the plug were hanging on by just a few stands. This happened at the track and I found it while fiddling with the harness plug moving the wires back and forth. Mad scramble as he was being called to the lanes for eliminations. Cut both plugs off and twisted the wires together with some electrical tape to seal it update
BTDT
Hey guys I appreciate all the help. Sorry I've been so busy. It's been a while since I replied to your posts. I ran some more test last night. I ran another ohms test as nacho and Ron have suggested.I ran one test from the coil plug in to the ECU plug that goes to the distributor. The gray wire that goes from the coil pickup cavity four was reading .3 ohms. The black and white wire that runs to the cavity five was reading .4 ohms. The other test I ran was from the ECU plug to the coil. Cavity one which runs to the positive post on the coil was reading 1.0 ohms. Cavity two which runs to the negative side of the coil was reading .4 ohms. I don't know if these numbers sound right, but due to the fact that I didn't take pictures before I started unhooking wires I was going off memory. I could've sworn that I had both the cavity one and cavity two wires going to the positive post. But I could've been mistaken. I rewired both cavity one and cavity two wires to my new ECU Orange box. I wonder if I burned up the ECU unit in the process. Therefore I ordered a cheap Napa ECU box to try. It's not an orange box but we'll see what happens. I'm hoping that's what is wrong with that. Let me know if any readings I came up with sound wrong please. Thanks guys
I'm praying I can have it running by July when my son comes home from yuma airbase for my daughters wedding lol n
Sent 2 PM but they don't show in outbox. Did you get them?
Quote from: Barfyspitz on May 14, 2016, 06:30:50 PM
I'm praying I can have it running by July when my son comes home from yuma airbase for my daughters wedding lol n
We are too. :2thumbs: I think it has to be solvable, even after chasing it for so long. I am hoping on the NAPA ECU.
Quote from: flyinlow on May 17, 2016, 03:48:55 PM
Sent 2 PM but they don't show in outbox. Did you get them?
Yes I did man. Thank you. The napa ECU should be in today.
If the wiring has checked out with the continuity test and the ballast, coil & distributor pickup are good then it has to be the ECU. :yesnod:
Hoping you have a positive result ! ;)
Ron
Hi guys. Well this morning I hooked up the new ECU after making one final check of the continuity. I checked for spark and it was there! It was orange not white or blue like I've read but I put the plug back into the head and it fired up! It sounded so good hearing the general run again! My wife came running up to the garage in her towel dripping wet (she was in the shower when she heard it fired up)LOL! She was hopping up-and-down just as excited as I was LOL. I want to thank all you guys for your help...nacho, Ron, flying low, Xn29 Metallicareload and all the others that helped me. Thank you so much for working me through this. I really appreciate it! In a way this was a blessing because I finally can say that I actually understand the ignition system! I've learned so much and I actually know how to use my multimeter that I bought back in 2004 LOL. I believe when I hooked up the new orange box I rewired the coil wrong and burned it up. I might take it for spin tonight! Thanks again you guys
Great news ! :woohoo: :musik010: :punkrocka: :cheers:
That's the thing about troubleshooting your own car....you learn a lot and this experience will make further diagnosing much easier should another problem crop up in the future. :yesnod:
Nice work and way to go for not throwing in the towel. There's a solution for every problem....you just have to know how to find it and make the correction. ;)
Ron
Awesome !!!
:2thumbs:
Quote from: firefighter3931 on May 26, 2016, 02:33:20 PM
Great news ! :woohoo: :musik010: :punkrocka: :cheers:
That's the thing about troubleshooting your own car....you learn a lot and this experience will make further diagnosing much easier should another problem crop up in the future. :yesnod:
Nice work and way to go for not throwing in the towel. There's a solution for every problem....you just have to know how to find it and make the correction. ;)
Thanks man. There was a lot of times I wondered if I would lol I'm gonna change the oil tonight. Bought some valvoline vr1 20w50 racing lil. . Oreillys recommended it due to my flat tapper cam and the zinc. Would that be better than regular 10w40 valvoline for my 509 purpleshAft? It's a low mileage motor with 11:1 compression. Has 75psi oil pressure when cold. Drops off when warm
Ron
[quote I might take it for spin tonight! Thanks again you guys
[/quote]
You better! I'll take mine for a ride tonight too. Just to celebrate with you. ;) ;)
What Ron and everyone else said. :2thumbs: Now its time to have fun.
Quote from: Barfyspitz on May 26, 2016, 03:33:12 PM
Thanks man. There was a lot of times I wondered if I would lol I'm gonna change the oil tonight. Bought some valvoline vr1 20w50 racing lil. . Oreillys recommended it due to my flat tapper cam and the zinc. Would that be better than regular 10w40 valvoline for my 509 purpleshAft? It's a low mileage motor with 11:1 compression. Has 75psi oil pressure when cold. Drops off when warm
You're welcome....we all wanted to see this issue resolved for you ! Lots of good advice for troubleshooting in this thread. Nice group effort ! :2thumbs:
The VR1 racing oil is what you want to use. It has lots of zinc/phosphorus for flat tappet cam protection. :yesnod:
Mine has 75psi cold and settles in at 50psi hot idle. Oil pressure is a good thing :icon_smile_big:
Ron
Quote from: poppa on May 26, 2016, 03:43:02 PM
[quote I might take it for spin tonight! Thanks again you guys
You better! I'll take mine for a ride tonight too. Just to celebrate with you. ;) ;)
[/quote]
You've got yourself a deal poppa!
Quote from: firefighter3931 on May 26, 2016, 05:10:22 PM
Quote from: Barfyspitz on May 26, 2016, 03:33:12 PM
Thanks man. There was a lot of times I wondered if I would lol I'm gonna change the oil tonight. Bought some valvoline vr1 20w50 racing lil. . Oreillys recommended it due to my flat tapper cam and the zinc. Would that be better than regular 10w40 valvoline for my 509 purpleshAft? It's a low mileage motor with 11:1 compression. Has 75psi oil pressure when cold. Drops off when warm
You're welcome....we all wanted to see this issue resolved for you ! Lots of good advice for troubleshooting in this thread. Nice group effort ! :2thumbs:
The VR1 racing oil is what you want to use. It has lots of zinc/phosphorus for flat tappet cam protection. :yesnod:
Mine has 75psi cold and settles in at 50psi hot idle. Oil pressure is a good thing :icon_smile_big:
Ron
Cool man! I'll put it in. And it was a great team effort full of great advice and members
I never did chime in since all the post I read were pretty much some of what I would have suggested. I could see you were in good hands!!! I have gotten in the habit of keeping an extra orange box in the drawer in my tool box lately. Had one go out just sitting in the yard one day, It just wouldn't start and I checked for fire at the plugs and there was nothing so I stuck a used coil on it since I have a few of those laying around and still nothing so swapped out the orange box and it started right up!! I know that's not the best way to figure out what wrong but I knew it wasn't firing and the resistor was good so I went to swapping out parts!! lol If I am going on a pretty good drive I usually toss an extra resistor and an orange box in the glove compartment just in case. Glad to hear you got it running!!! Enjoy your charger!! :icon_smile_big:
In a nutshell, it was a bad ECU box correct ?
Yes it was. After replacing with a new ECU,I promptly rewired the coil incorrectly and probably fried the new one thus confusing the situation LOL