i've tried to search and i've found good info until this new issue. i had the bouncing ammeter like others on this site and found the info to fix it.
well i didnt act in time. i went to pull the car out saturday and turn it around so i can start to replace wires and trouble shoot the bouncing issue.
after i started car i opened all the shop doors and let i warm up a bit. when i got in i noticed the guage was pegged out to the right. but i knew this already, thats what i am gonna fix.
while turing around the car the other guages started to fogg up, even the speedo, and after parking the car and shutting it down the amm meter guage is stuck. its pegged to the right and will not come down.
i guess i fried it. now i have to start over, becuase now i'm lost as to why this happened. and what my next move should be. i showed my wife and she smelled some burning.
i didnt, but i have bad sinus issues.
so what happened to my ammeter and what should be my next move. thanks
luke
Lower the column and pull the cluster after unplugging the battery.
Hi,
Sorry to hear what happened just as you were about to address the problem. I'm curious as to why the ammeter was pegged all the way to the right before it burnt out. Was the battery way,way down or has a shorted cell? The alternator was dumping a lot of current into something. There may be some kind of fault with the wiring like a short circuit somewhere that lead to this failure so, you may want to carefully inspect all the wiring harnesses for cracked or broken insulation. Forty year old plastic insulation can get really brittle and crack. I wonder if the ampmeter itself shorted to the dash frame somehow. I think your wise to ask what caused the problem before installing the wiring up grade. Take a look at the thread titled "Latest victim of the amp gauge ambush" below in this section. I outlined how I'm going to install this upgrade in my car.
This happened to me while driving one time, it was the voltage regulator. Lucky I was close to home.
Those amp meters are bad news. They can start a car fire and have. Get rid of it and run a volt meter. :Twocents:
Quote from: Pete in NH on April 29, 2013, 08:15:29 AM
Hi,
Sorry to hear what happened just as you were about to address the problem. I'm curious as to why the ammeter was pegged all the way to the right before it burnt out. Was the battery way,way down or has a shorted cell? The alternator was dumping a lot of current into something. There may be some kind of fault with the wiring like a short circuit somewhere that lead to this failure so, you may want to carefully inspect all the wiring harnesses for cracked or broken insulation. Forty year old plastic insulation can get really brittle and crack. I wonder if the ampmeter itself shorted to the dash frame somehow. I think your wise to ask what caused the problem before installing the wiring up grade. Take a look at the thread titled "Latest victim of the amp gauge ambush" below in this section. I outlined how I'm going to install this upgrade in my car.
the battery is new, so i know it wasnt that. it might be like 68 RT said, voltage regulator, or something else. this car was wired wrong when i bought it as stated in this thread
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99586.0.html
what ever happened i need to pull the cluster and see what other damage i did. and yeah, skip,i think i'm gonna run a volt meter. what do you recomend, is there one that will fit in the cluster, if not its cool.
thanks
luke
New "OEM" brand ALT gauges are rated for 60 Amps, factory ones 30. Others convert ALT to VOLT @ I think "RPM Gauge Inc."
Read this... http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0.html :scratchchin:
Here for repairs.. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37999.0.html
Quote from: b5blue on April 29, 2013, 04:22:34 PM
New "OEM" brand ALT gauges are rated for 60 Amps, factory ones 30. Others convert ALT to VOLT @ I think "RPM Gauge Inc."
Read this... http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0.html :scratchchin:
Here for repairs.. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37999.0.html
Thanks for the info
What if I need to move the car. Will it still operate without the cluster in it
Luke
splice the amm wires together with screw and nut... and isolate them ( tape )... will be able to drive the car
Quote from: b5blue on April 29, 2013, 04:22:34 PM
New "OEM" brand ALT gauges are rated for 60 Amps, factory ones 30. Others convert ALT to VOLT @ I think "RPM Gauge Inc."
i couldnt find rpm gauge inc, is there somewhere else.
luke
I took a look through the March 2013 thread you referenced. Wow, that wiring is really hacked up! I think as others have advised you in that thread you have some serous wiring issues with that car. Forty year old cars can have a lot changed on them from the way they left the factory but modified wiring if not done correctly as others have stated can be dangerous. I think the advice that you install a few new reproduction harnesses is right on the money. New engine compartment and under dash harnesses will go a long way toward making your car safe and reliable. You really should consider putting the wiring back the way it left the factory. I would also move the battery back to the front of the car. Trunk mounted batteries leave you with long high current cables under the car that really can't be fused for fire protection. This car has some issues a voltmeter conversion is not going to solve. I don't know what your skill or comfort level is with electrical work and installing even good reproduction harnesses can cause some head scratching at times. Perhaps, you know someone who could help you who is more knowledgeable on electrical work that could help. I do think others are right when they say disconnect the battery and don't use the car until you can get the wiring sorted out. Looking at the photo in the March thread, I'm not sure the fusible link off the battery terminal of the starter relay is still intact, see Nacho's drawings. This fusible link is basic fire protection. If it is not there this may be why your ammeter burned as it acted like the fuse. You've posted twice in a month about smoke and strange electrical issues, in a way you were lucky in that even though you lost the ammeter it could have been worse and might be the next time.
Quote from: Pete in NH on April 30, 2013, 08:05:56 AM
I took a look through the March 2013 thread you referenced. Wow, that wiring is really hacked up! I think as others have advised you in that thread you have some serous wiring issues with that car. Forty year old cars can have a lot changed on them from the way they left the factory but modified wiring if not done correctly as others have stated can be dangerous. I think the advice that you install a few new reproduction harnesses is right on the money. New engine compartment and under dash harnesses will go a long way toward making your car safe and reliable. You really should consider putting the wiring back the way it left the factory. I would also move the battery back to the front of the car. Trunk mounted batteries leave you with long high current cables under the car that really can't be fused for fire protection. This car has some issues a voltmeter conversion is not going to solve. I don't know what your skill or comfort level is with electrical work and installing even good reproduction harnesses can cause some head scratching at times. Perhaps, you know someone who could help you who is more knowledgeable on electrical work that could help. I do think others are right when they say disconnect the battery and don't use the car until you can get the wiring sorted out. Looking at the photo in the March thread, I'm not sure the fusible link off the battery terminal of the starter relay is still intact, see Nacho's drawings. This fusible link is basic fire protection. If it is not there this may be why your ammeter burned as it acted like the fuse. You've posted twice in a month about smoke and strange electrical issues, in a way you were lucky in that even though you lost the ammeter it could have been worse and might be the next time.
i know pete. i should only have to move it one more time. i'm getting my lift in and need to move the car to install it. but i will be pushing it, not driving. i bought the harnesses, just need time to install, and correct the other stuff in my pics. i have read nacho's stuff and i think i can handle it. where would i get a battery tray and everything to move my battery back up front?
luke
My bad... http://www.redlinegaugeworks.com/ :yesnod:
Wow, having a lift in the garage, I have to envy you on that one! I didn't mean to get on you too much about fixing the wiring. I just didn't want to see you loose your car over it. AMD has repro battery trays for not too much. I see Goodmark has positive battery cables for a 383-440 B block engine, don't know what you have in your car. AMD also lists the battery hold down and J bolts. All in all, it shouldn't be hard to find the pieces to move the battrey up front again. I think a little searching among the Mopar reproduction parts suppliers will turn up what you need. Good luck with the project!
Quote from: Pete in NH on April 30, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
Wow, having a lift in the garage, I have to envy you on that one! I didn't mean to get on you too much about fixing the wiring. I just didn't want to see you loose your car over it. AMD has repro battery trays for not too much. I see Goodmark has positive battery cables for a 383-440 B block engine, don't know what you have in your car. AMD also lists the battery hold down and J bolts. All in all, it shouldn't be hard to find the pieces to move the battrey up front again. I think a little searching among the Mopar reproduction parts suppliers will turn up what you need. Good luck with the project!
thanks pete, and don't worry about getting on to me about fixin the wire. its been an issue i need to get too.
yeah, the lift i will be picking up tomorrow and i'll try and install it this weekend, so the wire issue will wait another week. at least i can order the parts and then get at it again. plus lift it up so i dont have to bend over too :2thumbs:
luke
ok, so my lift is in my shop, but not installed. my brother was suppose to help but went to Vegas till the 19th. :rotz:
anyway, i stopped working on his motor(actually its both ours) to concentrait on my ammeter issue. so here are some pics. then i will ask ?'s later.
1st is of the back of the guage. CRISPY!
2. just a pic of how dirty the lens is. WOW i didn't realize it
3. this is the guage, i touched it and it just fell off.
the last is the housing, you can see not only where it broke but the burn marks
so my question is now what. i know i need to make the wireing upgrade to keep it from buring up anymore stuff but what do i do about the guage. its not fixable. where can i get one to replace it.
i don't care if its factory. it can be repop. my car is not matching numbers so i'm not concered with any of that. but like the stock look. and don't want to have to replace any other guages too
any ideas
thanks
luke
since its out i will probably redue the rest. the tach was installed before i got the car. but the clock dont work :shruggy:
anyway, Pic
Hi Luke,
I guess you could always post a wanted ad. here. I think you might also find them listed on Evil Bay but you're really going to pay for it there. i don't think anyone is repoping them although it seems like a good item to repro. You might want to consider going to a voltmeter since you have the instrument cluster apart. I posted something earlier this morning about possibly adapting a Autogage 2356 1-1/2 inch voltmeter. That would be a low cost fix if it fits.
On another note be very careful when cleaning the smoke residue off the other cluster gauges. That paint on the markings may be very fragile after all these years. Maybe others can suggest how to clean them up. I think I would start with a very mild cleaner such as a few drops of dish detergent in water and rub very gentally with something like a Q tip cotton swab. Again, maybe others have some advice.
thanks pete. i might get a decal kit for the other gauges. they have been like that, its not the smoke that made them do that. it wasnt much smoke at all, that i could see anyway. i might do a whole aftermarket kit and sell the other factory gauges. i've been following that other thread and like what i see. i have a new dash harness though, is it hard to make new gauges work with it?
i'll see what others say too :2thumbs:
luke
Hi Luke,
You're likely to run into some issues fitting an after market set of gauges into your dash. One thing to check would be the fuel tank, oil pressure, and temperature sending units in the car already may or may not work correctly with the after market gauges. You would need to read and compare the specifications between the factory senders and the new gauges. One the wiring side,as you can see the factory gauges mount up on and connect to the wiring using a printed circuit board. If you go with after market gauges you will have to figure out how to mount your new gauges and then adapt them into the wiring harness. It can be done because as you know others have done it. but, it does require some electrical knowledge to get it all hooked up correctly.
The easier way out may be to repair/restore the stock instrument panel. That way you know it will match up with the new dash wiring harness. The simplest option I can think of is to replace the factory ammeter wit a new factory part. The voltmeter conversion would be the next simplest option and a new set of after market gauges would be the most complicated option.
ok, so i ordered the correct dash harness and i have a replacement volt gauge for the ammeter i burnt up.
so my question is, Do i still have to do the upgrade that nacho was talking about?
luke
Hi Luke,
Yes, I think I would still do a partial modification. It would look a little different from Nacho's original modification because there is no need to run high current wires up to the dash for an ammeter when you install a voltmeter.
If I recall, I think you said your alternator is a 75 amp unit. I would run a # 6 piece of wire directly from the alternator output stud to the battery stud on the starter relay and I would install an 80amp Maxi fuse in that line. I would then run another piece of #8 wire from the battery stud on the starter relay through a 30 or 40 amp Maxi fuse to the wire that went from the old ammeter to the distribution splice in the dash harness that should be the #12 black wire. If you have a lot of new accessories in the car I would use the 40 amp fuse if not I would try a 30 amp.
On your new voltmeter, Connect the negative side to a good ground and the positive side to a point that is powered on when the ignition switch is in the on position. Did you find a voltmeter that would fit in the same place as the old ammeter?
Yeah Pete, I bought that one from summit that you suggested. It would fit but I decided to put the ammeter back in the dash just for looks and wire up the volt meter elsewhere. Thanks
Luke
Good to know the Autogage voltmeter would actually fit in the dash in place of the ammeter if someone wanted to go that way. Good luck on the re-wiring!
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on April 29, 2013, 11:32:02 PM
splice the amm wires together with screw and nut... and isolate them ( tape )... will be able to drive the car
what nacho said i took apart my cluster recently and found out that ammeter is bad news now just connect thise two wires and forget about it....
well, I simply would replace the ammeter for a new one with new housing isolators... which is what restore a car it means
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ammeter-Insulator-for-most-MOPAR-instrument-clusters-/360261068217?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53e13ba5b9&vxp=mtr#ht_485wt_1051
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-70-Mopar-Bbody-Rallye-Dash-Ammeter-Original-Restored-Charger-Super-Bee-/380506201829?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5897efdee5&vxp=mtr#ht_120wt_1051
Yeah, I decided to buy these two nacho and restore my cluster while its out. Do it right. I'll do your upgrade too.
My next issue is the wiring under the hood. I just replaced my dash harness. And I have a engine harness, but what other harnesses do I need. A wiper harness and light harness. Is that right? And I also need to know where to get the voltage regulator and ballast too. I'm relocating the battery back under the hood, like factory. So I pretty much need everything under the hood. I have jacobs ignition that I might swap out, I can't find the instructions and the wiring is a mess.
So if anyone can help me out, I know it's,a lot but need to do it right. Thanks
Luke
And a good alternator, and how to wire it up if its not stock, though I prefer that.
Luke
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,70008.msg791137/topicseen.html#msg791137
Quote from: b5blue on May 25, 2013, 09:45:52 AM
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,70008.msg791137/topicseen.html#msg791137
Thanks b5, so you didn't do the upgrade that nacho did. This alternator setup did the trick? You bought the 60amp or 120?
Luke
120, no mods just adapter shown. Works like a champ. :yesnod: I am going to and do recommend upgrade to "OEM brand" alt gauge though. It will handle high idle amp output (60amp) in case battery is drained somewhat from repeated cranking. (Just in case.) Something very similar to Nachos mods will be done by me in the future, I had "plans" cooking in my head way before seeing his very nice topic. (USAF trained in install/maint. years ago.)
I do constantly preach about how cars have never been engineered to charge dead or badly discharged batteries, (More than 20%.) and that would be compounded by a car with an ALT gauge like old Mopars. As my car sat for weeks/months without starting as I did body work it would require a lot of cranking to get started. Having my radio out I can reach inside the dash and hold the ALT gauge studs to feel how hot they get. The gauge is working and at full swing to the right (Max recharge of battery.) they heat up to hot in about 3-4 minutes. (Hot to the touch.) If stranded you could shut down for 10 minutes and restart, run for 5 and shut down again. In normal operation everything works much much better than ever!
check out Mad Enterprises @ www.madelectrical.com check out there Mopar or Electrical Tech repair section too, great guys to deal with & they also have great wiring & connectors, relays Products/Supplies/Schematics too...
That's b5, ill be ordering that tonight from Mancini. Thanks budnicks. Good read.
What about under the hood harnesses. Anyone replace all these.
Hi Luke,
I guess you have quite a few options on what kind of alternator set up you can install. The factory alternators were I believe either 35 amp standard or 45 amp units if the car had factory A/C. Back in 69 they would have used a relay mechanical regulator rather than the newer electronic regulator. If using a Chrysler alternator I would upgrade to the newer electronic regulator. If you do this I would suggest using a real Mopar electronic regulator. All my experience with after market regulators has been mostly bad. I would use a two field wire, round back 45 amp unit. This would look like the original 69 alternator but allow the use of the electronic regulator. These alternators were used on 70-71 cars with A/C. Also at 45 amps you will not over tax the ammeter. You could also use a 72 and up square back alternator for more output. One you go outside of the Chrysler alternators you have many, many options if you choose to go that way but the wiring gets further away from stock and would have to be worked out on a custom basis.
On the rest of the engine compartment wiring, how you wire it will depend on ignition system choice and if you go with the factory type alternators and regulators. Moving the battery back under the hood you will need new battery cables, both positive and negative. The positive cable also contains wiring to the starter relay which mounts on the firewall near the bulk head connector.
Once you make some basic decisions on how factory or custom you want to make things I can help you work things out wire by wire and I'm sure many others will jump in also.
Quote from: lukedukem on May 25, 2013, 04:55:08 PM
That's b5, ill be ordering that tonight from Mancini. Thanks budnicks. Good read.
What about under the hood harnesses. Anyone replace all these.
Evans or M&H harnesses are the best plug & play harnesses... M&H when dealing with Mopar harnesses, you have to go thru Year One... you can get them with the CEI {Chrysler Electronic Ignition} & Electronic Voltage regulator wired in too...
My engine harness is from Evens, it's a work of art. However being a wiring kinda geek I double check everything. The blue wire to the bulkhead connector was not crimped tightly and slid right out of the connector with ease! As I have a proper crimp gun that duplicates the factory crimp and connectors it was an easy repair.
It was a critical connector (They all are really!) and a loose crimp would have been a disaster in that it would have never delivered full power and only gotten worse over time. Examine new AND old harnesses very closely, do a "tug test" by pulling sharply and firmly on every single wires connection, look inside every connector to be certain all is perfect! My new M&H rear harness has an improper made light bulb socket contact, the wire cap that contacts the bulbs electrical connection is off at a 45 degree angle and soldered in place that way. That would lead to contact issues deforming the bulbs soldered contact on the bottom of the base.
Finding flaws from both manufacturers has me wondering how many others have not found these issues before installing and are now at whits end trying to find some issue thinking: It can't be my harness, it's new! :scratchchin:
i would like to get all the harnesses that come out of the bulk head connector on the underhood side. i just finished installing my dash harness last night and i have two issues on two plugs. when i removed my old dash harness they were not being used and i dont know where they go. here are some pics. they both come out of the harness right beside the plug for the ignition. i have more questions but i will wait till i get these taken care of. this stuff is really getting to me. but you guys are a big help. just bare with me. thanks
if rubber tripple female bus connectior is attached to a yellow wire is the door ground switch, for stuff activated with door ground ( i.e. courtesy lights, time delay light for key, map light )
the T conector... need to know wire colors
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on May 26, 2013, 10:04:36 AM
if rubber tripple female bus connectior is attached to a yellow wire is the door ground switch, for stuff activated with door ground ( i.e. courtesy lights, time delay light for key, map light )
the T conector... need to know wire colors
heres another pic, i'm color blind so not sure what colors they are... whata think
i had my wife look at the colors and the triple female connector has a orange wire comming out and its a light orange. the T connector as in the pics has two orange, (darker than the triple female orange), a white and a white with red stripe. Anyone?
Luke
I do remember that the wire for the electric fuel pump had a spade connector on it and was pushed into the T shaped plug. Anyone?
Luke
I got it. The three female connector is for the ash receiver and the T shaped one was for the radio. Booyah.
Now what two harnesses do I need for under the hood olong with engine harnesses.
And what ballast resistor to get. I have jacobs ignition with ultra coil.
Luke
yeap I was to say Radio... orange is dial light, red is power, on this case, ACC sourced.
all orange wires on dash harness are light, dimmer controlled
electric fuel pump are more correct to be feeded from RUN circuit ( blue )
Quote from: Nacho-RT74 on May 28, 2013, 06:19:45 AM
yeap I was to say Radio... orange is dial light, red is power, on this case, ACC sourced.
all orange wires on dash harness are light, dimmer controlled
electric fuel pump are more correct to be feeded from RUN circuit ( blue )
i was wondering if i can still leave it connected there since i dont have a factory radio and never will
luke
Hi Luke,
I agree with Nacho, the radio feed connector is not a good place to get power for the fuel pump. I would just leave it disconnected if you don't have a factory radio. Your car had a mechanical fuel pump on the engine when it left the factory, so there is no wiring for the electric fuel pump that was added. Where is the electric pump mounted? The right way to handle the electric pump would be to give it it's own circuit. We can work that out but, it would be helpful to know where the pump is mounted to give an idea what the wiring might look like.
Quote from: Pete in NH on May 28, 2013, 12:10:17 PM
Hi Luke,
I agree with Nacho, the radio feed connector is not a good place to get power for the fuel pump. I would just leave it disconnected if you don't have a factory radio. Your car had a mechanical fuel pump on the engine when it left the factory, so there is no wiring for the electric fuel pump that was added. Where is the electric pump mounted? The right way to handle the electric pump would be to give it it's own circuit. We can work that out but, it would be helpful to know where the pump is mounted to give an idea what the wiring might look like.
its mounted by the tank. the wire is ran up and comes out of the kick panel on the driver side. woudl i need to run it to the fuse box or what?
better use a relay, feeded from alternator side of circuit if keeking ammeter but allways triggered from blue RUN circuit. I don't recall 2nd gens with some source "ready to go" from Run circuit, like 3rd gens got. Maybe splice it from ign switch itself OR bulkhead terminal.
to make a clean conection you could cut existant female spade terminal either at ign switch plug or bulkhead attach both wires together ( trigger wire and existant ) and attach a new terminal into cavity. That's at least what I would do if I want a source inside the cab instead peel off the wire cover and splice there the power.
Tipically elect fuel pumps are triggered from ballast or voltage regulator if on engine bay
UNLESS 2nd gens got an existant RUN circuit source floating around.
3rd gens got a fuse at fuse box on the run circuit for some dash functions and is posible to attach there the trigger wire.
I would suggest a relay for the fuel pump also. That way you don't load the ignition switch with the fuel pump load. Chrysler engineers never intended the switch to carry that extra load and it's a good idea to take it easy on 40 year old parts.
I would get a small four pin automotive cube relay, you can get them with a small mounting tab with a screw hole for mounting. Wire one side of the relay coil to a good ground and the other to the run side of the ignition switch. You can also wire in a hidden kill switch in this wire if you would like as a theft prevention thing. That would shut off fuel delivery unless you set the hidden switch in the closed position. Connect one of the remaining relay contact pins to your fuel pump wire and the last pin to a source of battery voltage through a 15 amp fuse. I would use a modern blade type fuse in an in line holder. You may be able to find a source of battery voltage on the fuse block. I don't have any wiring diagrams for your 69 to give you an exact location on the fuse block.
Also, since you said the pump was in the rear of the car, I would use at least #12 wire to keep the voltage drop down. you can follow the existing path but make sure the wire is properly installed to prevent it for getting cut on any metal. Tieing it along any existing wiring harness with cable ties and plastic electrical tape would be the way to go.
Quote from: Pete in NH on May 29, 2013, 08:26:01 AM
I would suggest a relay for the fuel pump also. That way you don't load the ignition switch with the fuel pump load. Chrysler engineers never intended the switch to carry that extra load and it's a good idea to take it easy on 40 year old parts.
I would get a small four pin automotive cube relay, you can get them with a small mounting tab with a screw hole for mounting. Wire one side of the relay coil to a good ground and the other to the run side of the ignition switch. You can also wire in a hidden kill switch in this wire if you would like as a theft prevention thing. That would shut off fuel delivery unless you set the hidden switch in the closed position. Connect one of the remaining relay contact pins to your fuel pump wire and the last pin to a source of battery voltage through a 15 amp fuse. I would use a modern blade type fuse in an in line holder. You may be able to find a source of battery voltage on the fuse block. I don't have any wiring diagrams for your 69 to give you an exact location on the fuse block.
Also, since you said the pump was in the rear of the car, I would use at least #12 wire to keep the voltage drop down. you can follow the existing path but make sure the wire is properly installed to prevent it for getting cut on any metal. Tieing it along any existing wiring harness with cable ties and plastic electrical tape would be the way to go.
that was my next question pete, how to run everything. my fuse block is located in the glove box area. could i just run that last pin strait to the battery with an inilne fuse? thanks for the answers guys, i'm getting there.
one step at a time. my battery tray is on the way so i should be getting close to putting that in then i will get fuel to it.
Yes, you could wire the fuel pump relay line through a fuse to the battery. I found a wiring diagram for your 69 Charger on line so I can talk more intelligently about things. It looks like you could also tap off battery voltage on the fuse block. There are six fuses all together, the two sort of in the center show a pink wire on one end of both fuses. The bottom of each of those two fuses are battery voltage and it looks like there may be a plug on point there for a 1/4" quick connect terminal. You could check that out with a voltmeter or trace light if you have one. The wire at that point on the bottom of those two fuses is labeled as RED-TR. That likely means the wire is red with a tracer or has a red tracer.
Quote from: Pete in NH on May 29, 2013, 01:17:50 PM
Yes, you could wire the fuel pump relay line through a fuse to the battery. I found a wiring diagram for your 69 Charger on line so I can talk more intelligently about things. It looks like you could also tap off battery voltage on the fuse block. There are six fuses all together, the two sort of in the center show a pink wire on one end of both fuses. The bottom of each of those two fuses are battery voltage and it looks like there may be a plug on point there for a 1/4" quick connect terminal. You could check that out with a voltmeter or trace light if you have one. The wire at that point on the bottom of those two fuses is labeled as RED-TR. That likely means the wire is red with a tracer or has a red tracer.
i'm on my way hoem... i'll check it out.
i'll also take pics of my distr. and post.
thanks
luke
ok, here are some pics of my distrib. with the cap off... hope these help us.
i have firecore wires now but it had blue one like the cap before, i think it was morosso? :shruggy:
your also right about the extra tab on the battery feed... should be good for the elect. pump.
luke
Hi Luke,
Okay, you do indeed have a Chrysler electronic distributor. so, you would be all set to go with the Chrysler Orange box ECU system or the GM HEI conversion system. For the Chrysler system you can get your new engine wiring harness with this built in. Then you will need a P4120505 ECU, 1.2 ohm ballast resistor and a stock ignition coil. For the GM HEI system you would need the 4 pin ignitor module, E core coil,a heatsink for the ignitor module and make up a wiring harness. One advantage with the GM system is no ballast resistor.
From the looks of the picture that rotor has seen better days and if the cap is in similar condition I would change them both. Also, if the spark plug cables are old replace those too.
Quote from: Pete in NH on May 30, 2013, 09:08:13 AM
Hi Luke,
Okay, you do indeed have a Chrysler electronic distributor. so, you would be all set to go with the Chrysler Orange box ECU system or the GM HEI conversion system. For the Chrysler system you can get your new engine wiring harness with this built in. Then you will need a P4120505 ECU, 1.2 ohm ballast resistor and a stock ignition coil. For the GM HEI system you would need the 4 pin ignitor module, E core coil,a heatsink for the ignitor module and make up a wiring harness. One advantage with the GM system is no ballast resistor.
From the looks of the picture that rotor has seen better days and if the cap is in similar condition I would change them both. Also, if the spark plug cables are old replace those too.
ok, so i found the Chrysler Orange box ECU P4120505(and with no harness), but every ballast reisitor i find doesnt state the ohms. is it just stock. and where can i get a stock coil, or can i run an aftermarket one, or does that require to change things
The ballast resistor is P5206436 which is a 1 ohm. These resistors increase in resistance as they warm up so whether you call it a 1 ohm or 1.2 ohm it's all the same. On the coil what I meant by a stock coil is any coil that would have been used on this car. It can be a Mopar coil or an after market one. For example the coil I now have on my 71 383 is a NAPA/Echlin unit and it works just fine with the orange box. I say NAPA/Echlin because these days NAPA and everyone else has a lower cost line of parts, mostly from China. Best to stay away from that stuff because you never know how good the quality is. Echlin is an upper line part. It may cost more but it's decent stuff.
Since some one really changed the ignition system on your car, you may also need a coil mounting bracket to mount a stock type coil. The coil mounts slightly to the rear of the distributor on your B block engine.
Quote from: Pete in NH on May 30, 2013, 12:51:14 PM
The ballast resistor is P5206436 which is a 1 ohm. These resistors increase in resistance as they warm up so whether you call it a 1 ohm or 1.2 ohm it's all the same. On the coil what I meant by a stock coil is any coil that would have been used on this car. It can be a Mopar coil or an after market one. For example the coil I now have on my 71 383 is a NAPA/Echlin unit and it works just fine with the orange box. I say NAPA/Echlin because these days NAPA and everyone else has a lower cost line of parts, mostly from China. Best to stay away from that stuff because you never know how good the quality is. Echlin is an upper line part. It may cost more but it's decent stuff.
Since some one really changed the ignition system on your car, you may also need a coil mounting bracket to mount a stock type coil. The coil mounts slightly to the rear of the distributor on your B block engine.
thanks for the info pete... so i looked all this stuff and i found it all, but now its the hard part---- the wiring up part. is there a diagram i can use. i do have my big book with all the diagrams in it... would it be in there. i'll look when i get home
luke
You won't find anything in your 69 shop manual about these electronic ignition systems as they didn't arrive until 1972. Will you be using a new engine wiring harness like from Evan's with the electronic ignition wiring built in or a separate wiring harness from Mopar Performance? Here's a link to the wiring for the orange box conversion kit from mopar- http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/elecignconv.pdf There's a lot of information here about installing these systems
Quote from: Pete in NH on May 31, 2013, 08:13:15 AM
You won't find anything in your 69 shop manual about these electronic ignition systems as they didn't arrive until 1972. Will you be using a new engine wiring harness like from Evan's with the electronic ignition wiring built in or a separate wiring harness from Mopar Performance? Here's a link to the wiring for the orange box conversion kit from mopar- http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/elecignconv.pdf There's a lot of information here about installing these systems
I got my harness from yearone. With out it built in. Thanks for the link.
Luke
try this
Thanks bud.
Luke
You can also use the ready made Mopar Performance wire harness P3690152 and follow the hook up instructions from the Mopar Performance kit if you don't want to make up your own wiring. It might not be too easy to find the 5 pin moulded connector for the orange box ECU unless you do a little junk yard shopping. I don't know if you can still get new connectors from Chrysler like you could in the past.
Can someone post pics of how the battery tray is mounted. I just got mine in but need to know how it goes in. Thanks. Also. How does the vacumm canister mount.
Quote from: lukedukem on June 07, 2013, 01:03:08 PM
Can someone post pics of how the battery tray is mounted. I just got mine in but need to know how it goes in. Thanks. Also. How does the vacumm canister mount.
Anyone
Dayyammmm, we don't even get 24 hours... wow..
1) So here we have the vacuum can (black ribbed cylinder on right of shot) and rear upper inboard corner of the battery tray, the rear of the car is to the left. Those hoses run from the can through bulkhead to headlight switch. Black strap with bolt at rear end on yellow surface is mount of vacuum can to frame. Red object going down from battery tray to the frame is the battery tray support.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e77/pauldewing/Charger%202012%20pics%20Cayman/New%20Charger%20Fine%2069/battery%20and%20vacuum%20can/DSCN8445_zps20c9084e.jpg)
2) Here we have the front end of the vacuum can. Again, flat strap bolts it to frame.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e77/pauldewing/Charger%202012%20pics%20Cayman/New%20Charger%20Fine%2069/battery%20and%20vacuum%20can/DSCN8446_zpsda7bfa39.jpg)
3) Upper inboard forward corner of battery tray looking forwards towards the 'engine side' of the radiator 'bulkhead'. Coolant overflow bottle above, radiator shroud to right.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e77/pauldewing/Charger%202012%20pics%20Cayman/New%20Charger%20Fine%2069/battery%20and%20vacuum%20can/DSCN8447_zps69dac1f5.jpg)
4) Looking down on rear outboard corner of battery tray. You can see the top of the captive coach bolt going into the inner wheel well. I have not checked what's the other side of this. Check your car carefully.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e77/pauldewing/Charger%202012%20pics%20Cayman/New%20Charger%20Fine%2069/battery%20and%20vacuum%20can/DSCN8448_zpscdd1b803.jpg)
5) Forward side of radiator bulkhead. This is the other end of the bolt shown in (3) above:
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e77/pauldewing/Charger%202012%20pics%20Cayman/New%20Charger%20Fine%2069/battery%20and%20vacuum%20can/DSCN8449_zps4634af62.jpg)
Not terribly clear, but the red/orange item in the centre of the shot by the rear end of the vacuum can is the mildly 'S' shaped diagonally positioned support for the battery tray. Bolt at each end.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e77/pauldewing/Charger%202012%20pics%20Cayman/New%20Charger%20Fine%2069/battery%20and%20vacuum%20can/DSCN8450_zps3aa94213.jpg)
Hope this helps. Now, patience glasshopper..... :rotz:
CS
It does help. A lot.
I know, I only gave 22 hrs and I am sometimes impatient. My wife keeps telling me that. Only when it dells with car stuff. Thanks for the pics. Again sorry
Luke.
Relax buddy, I was only teasing you. :yesnod: Let me know if you need anything else. BTW, I can only say this is how MY CAR is. She's 44 years old now, so others may be different.
Enjoy..
CS
Quote from: CaymanSublime on June 08, 2013, 09:43:34 PM
Relax buddy, I was only teasing you. :yesnod: Let me know if you need anything else. BTW, I can only say this is how MY CAR is. She's 44 years old now, so others may be different.
Enjoy..
CS
Lol. It all good. My battery was relocated by PO and I had now clue how that stuff mounted. These pics will surely help out.
Luke
No worries brother. Question. Where was the battery relocated to, and why do you want to move it back? Can't help thinking that if the battery is now in the boot (trunk) then that may solve a whole load of issues you may have with the car. For example, if the battery +ve wire is traveling from the rear of the car to the starter relay, wherever you decide to put that if you move it, then you could have a battery isolator switch permanently installed inside the car, allowing you to simply switch off the battery current (good thing IMO) whenever you leave/park the car. In fact, I may do that to mine to save running a battery cable in, then back out of, the cabin.
I understand if you want the car to be all original spec, but I think you have to bear in mind 40+ year old wiring too, unless that's all new as well, in which case I'll shut up... :eyes:
CS
It was in the trunk. Yeah, I bought all new harnesses for the car and I'm relocating it for simplicity. Easier for me too put it all back together if its close to factory. Hopefully anyway.
Luke
Where'd you get your harnesses from please? I may well just replace my dash harness...
CS
Quote from: CaymanSublime on June 09, 2013, 07:51:24 PM
Where'd you get your harnesses from please? I may well just replace my dash harness...
CS
M&H, but you have to go though yearone.
Thank you.
PETE IN NH can you supply the link to the online wiring diagram you mentioned for the '69 please? I tried but didn't find a useful one.....
CS
Hi Cayman,
The links for the 69 Charger wiring diagrams are : http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1969/69ChargerA.JPG and http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1969/69ChargerB.JPG Hope they are helpful.
Nice. Thank you Sir.
CS
Can anyone tell me where the negitive wire from the battery goes. I tried using some pics but cannot tell from them.
Luke
Hi Luke,
It will connect directly to the engine block. I don't have a 69, but on my 71 383 it is bolted under the very front intake manifold bolt on the driver's side. I'm sure someone with a 69 big block will jump in and tell you where it bolts on.
Thanks Pete. I thought that's where it goes. But instead that's where they decided to put the Engine ground, then it goes down below the power steering pump to the frame. I know that doesn't belong there. That one goes back side I believe.
Luke
can anyone tell me how the engine harness is routed. does it go clockwise over the driversdie or toward the passanger side then around to the horns... i removed everything cause it was wrong and i'm starting from scratch.
luke
From the bulkheads across the firewall then forward along the passengers side between the intake and valve cover to the coil, then dizzy, down to Alt. and out past it to the horns. At least that's how on my 70. :2thumbs:
Quote from: b5blue on June 17, 2013, 05:36:28 PM
From the bulkheads across the firewall then forward along the passengers side between the intake and valve cover to the coil, then dizzy, down to Alt. and out past it to the horns. At least that's how on my 70. :2thumbs:
Thanks b5. I thought that was the way.
Luke
made progress last night. got my battery tray installed and coil and orange box...
can anyone tell me if those two holes by teh bulk head is where the starter solinoid goes?
luke
Who's burt?
i test fitted the 120amp alt. i got from macini... it looks to be a good fit. progress :2thumbs:
luke
You oly just oticed it? Ha!, makes me smile everytime I read it. Do't you dare chage it! Who eeds 'n's ayway?
I assume the starter soleoid is on the starter itself, did't check my car yet. Let me know if you eed me to.
Which two holes you talkig about? Arrows on the pictures you must put, Luke. (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/star-wars/smiley-vault-star-wars-006.gif)
CS
i circled them in red. i ment Starter Relay
Hey Luke. Not checked my car yet (it's a wrapped up pending the loom repair) but if you mean starter relay as opposed to starter solenoid, is it just where the relay mounts to the firewall? If not, hit me back and I'll go and uncover my car and check it. I can imagine it's just holes to bolt the relay to the firewall, but let me know and I'll check if you need me to. :2thumbs:
CS
Quote from: CaymanSublime on June 19, 2013, 01:06:12 PM
Hey Luke. Not checked my car yet (it's a wrapped up pending the loom repair) but if you mean starter relay as opposed to starter solenoid, is it just where the relay mounts to the firewall? If not, hit me back and I'll go and uncover my car and check it. I can imagine it's just holes to bolt the relay to the firewall, but let me know and I'll check if you need me to. :2thumbs:
CS
na. thats what i was wondering.... just need to find bolt to go there.
luke
Hi Luke,
Yes, those look like the starter relay mounting holes. The factory usually used something like #12 sheet metal screws. You might want to use real 1/4 - 20 bolts, nuts and lockwashers as so many times on old cars those holes get stripped out.
Quote from: Pete in NH on June 19, 2013, 01:15:34 PM
Hi Luke,
Yes, those look like the starter relay mounting holes. The factory usually used something like #12 sheet metal screws. You might want to use real 1/4 - 20 bolts, nuts and lockwashers as so many times on old cars those holes get stripped out.
thanks pete.
luke
While we're talking electrics and protection Luke, did you see this post?
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,168.0.html
CS
Quote from: CaymanSublime on June 19, 2013, 01:27:29 PM
While we're talking electrics and protection Luke, did you see this post?
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,168.0.html
CS
NICE!
i do have a relay for my electric fuel pump already, and i did think about doing this also for lights. thanks for that link too. it does seem like it will be easy to follow :2thumbs:
luke
so i have my new alt. from amncini installed and i started to install my new engine harness. when i got to the alt. it got confusing and i hope that b5 can help since he has one too. it says to get rid of the voltage regulator. now is this the same as alt. regulator? i have posted a pic of what i think they want me to do away with. then the wireing of the alt. is diff. too. b5 can you help me out.
luke
OK were going to be adding 1 wire and a solid state (70 up style.) voltage regulator so we'll need a connector for that also. I'll get into my FSM and check the exact tie-in points to your harness. PM sent :2thumbs:
Hi Luke,
That highlight relay upgrade is a good one to make and I'll be doing it on my 71. It will give brighter lights and takes a big current load off the bulk head connector pins and dash board highlight switch.
The Chrysler voltage regulator your looking for if it's a stock electronic type is 4529794. That's a really big alternator at 120 Amps. The stock wiring harness may not be up to dealing with all that current. The stock wiring harness used something like #12 wire for the alternator output. You're going to want something like #6 to handle that big alternator. Also, at that current level you're going to want to go to a voltmeter as the stock dash board ammeter will never handle all the current even with the bulk head connector bypass.
Quote from: b5blue on June 20, 2013, 05:46:43 AM
OK were going to be adding 1 wire and a solid state (70 up style.) voltage regulator so we'll need a connector for that also. I'll get into my FSM and check the exact tie-in points to your harness. PM sent :2thumbs:
thanks neil, i sent you your request.
Quote from: Pete in NH on June 20, 2013, 08:39:29 AM
Hi Luke,
That highlight relay upgrade is a good one to make and I'll be doing it on my 71. It will give brighter lights and takes a big current load off the bulk head connector pins and dash board highlight switch.
The Chrysler voltage regulator your looking for if it's a stock electronic type is 4529794. That's a really big alternator at 120 Amps. The stock wiring harness may not be up to dealing with all that current. The stock wiring harness used something like #12 wire for the alternator output. You're going to want something like #6 to handle that big alternator. Also, at that current level you're going to want to go to a voltmeter as the stock dash board ammeter will never handle all the current even with the bulk head connector bypass.
well that sucks, i guess i should've chekceedd that before ordering it. well, i'll see what neil sends me. but i have nachos upgrade done and ready.
thanks
luke
/\ +++ what they said. Luke, to be honest, I'm worried about the output of your alternator. it's easy to sit on the outside and criticise, but please know my concerns are for you and your car, not some forum posturing. If I understand correctly, you have all new wiring, which is a good thing, but please, please think safety and 'capacity'. You have more than doubled the amperage of the alternator, in a system that we know already can struggle. I think that the 'MAD' upgrade, and headlight relays will go towards protection. If I was in your situation, I would definitely fit a battery kill switch of some description. I'm going to relocate my battery to the trunk, and have a kill switch next to the drivers' seat inside the car. I just can't bear the thought of loosing my (or yours) car to a preventable fire.
B5 and Pete in NH definitely have a lot of knowledge and are very welcome and very generous additions to the forum, complimenting and adding to Nacho's previous posts.
safety, safety, safety brother.
CS
Luke,
I think we can work out a way to use that big alternator but, we're going to have to think it through and design it in as a total system. As Cayman said that alternator is over twice the current of a stock system so ,some upgrading will be required to make it safe. By the way you will need a connector for that Mopar type electronic voltage regulator. Chrysler used to sell them but I can't seem to find a current part number. I'll have to do some more looking or you might have to do a little junk yard shopping.
Quote from: Pete in NH on June 20, 2013, 12:36:29 PM
Luke,
I think we can work out a way to use that big alternator but, we're going to have to think it through and design it in as a total system. As Cayman said that alternator is over twice the current of a stock system so ,some upgrading will be required to make it safe. By the way you will need a connector for that Mopar type electronic voltage regulator. Chrysler used to sell them but I can't seem to find a current part number. I'll have to do some more looking or you might have to do a little junk yard shopping.
yeah, neil is actually drawing me up something similar to what he has. i sent him my info on it along with a wiring diagram for my car
luke
PM sent. No worry on the Denso Max output guys, it outputs what is needed to match demand, no more. The key here is "Idle output capacity" as I've tried to explain several times.
Poor idle output causes the car to siphon amps off the battery and when RPM's increase alt. output, the charging system, along with running the cars needs tries to replace amps lost at idle to the battery. (Seen as a voltage drop at the battery.) This is why you'll see the "ALT" gauge swing to -20 or -40 at a stop light then swing back up as you raise RPM's by pulling away. In that scenario the battery is acting as a voltage/amp "buffer" feeding the system's output what it lacks then replacing it when capable. The problem for the gauge is in monitoring this constant flow back and forth it builds up heat. Bypassing the gauge (As many recommend.) by connecting the two gauge wires just hides the issue from sight, yes this will increase the amount of heat the system can handle but the PROBLEM is still there! You can still fry the wires after enough (Now unseen.) draw accumulated off the battery.
The battery is meant ONLY for starting the engine, that is why in your FSM it is often referred to as a/the "starting battery". Any fix other than having proper "idle output" run into the "RUN" side of the wiring is NOT how the car was engineered. SO a bigger battery or a "fed to the battery alt." will still "back feed" the entire system and heat up the same wires. (Again I want to make clear...No car was EVER made to charge a dead or badly discharged battery! It is only designed to replace the small amount used for "normal starting of the engine".) The wire from the gauge to the battery is rated for that amount and no more.
The Denso 120 amp has run just fine in my 70 Charger for years now. I am very careful to NOT run my car with even a slightly over-discharged battery to not stress the original harness and gauge. All you need is a 29.00 battery charger and some common sense.
Neal, excellent knowledge/information. Thanks for sharing. I guess that makes more sense now :yesnod:. I've actually elected to replace the whole car's harness, and will be relocating the battery to the boot (trunk) area. This will allow me to put a battery kill switch in the car so that I can even just isolate the battery when the car is parked (short term. I'll take it out when the car goes away for the winter.) or if there is another problem. :2thumbs:
CS
I couldn't find an icon that has a lightbulb above his head cause it just all of a sudden hit me. After reading your last post Neil, I got it. I ordered the parts suggested. They will be here on the 27th. I will update progress. But I'm glad I replaced all my harnesses too. All I will be running will be a an electric fuel pump from the fuse panel with relay. Maybe a radio later. Thanks guys
Luke.
Consider running a feed off a fused "IGN. on" to activate a relay that is fed for "power to" the pump off ALT output. (That is also fused before the relay for the pumps rating.) Modern cars with electric fuel pumps have a built in impact sensor that will disable the pump in a wreck, I advise pirating one from a junk yard for safety. (Mid 80's Thunderbirds had them in the trunk, they had a small reset button exposed.) (Don't ask how I know... :eek2:)
Alt output------fuse-----relay-----impact sensor-----pump
IGN. on (Fused)-----------^
(relay on)
Okay, here's my take on all this. Today's cars need a heavy duty electrical system. They have air conditioning, power windows, seats, electric fuel pumps and electric cooling fans for the engine. Added to the mix are electrically heated glass and mirrors as well as an incredible amount of on board electronics. To save weight a small battery is used. It's little wonder these cars carry 120 amp alternators that produce a usable at lower engine speeds.
In contrast my 71 Charger which carries a fair number of options for its day has A/C, radio, and a rear window defogger that is a small blower motor, not heated glass. I provide the power for the windows and seats while the engine drives the cooling fan. There's a mechanical fuel pump and no on board electronics. It makes do with a 45 amp alternator which doesn't provide much out at idle but, also caries a big group 27 battery that can provide a few spare amps when the alternator can not.
I understand the idea of providing alternator output at lower engine speeds to keep the ammeter dancing down and not needing the battery to make up for electrical loads at low engine speeds and then having to put it back. All engineering design is a trade off and you almost never get everything you might want in a design. Our older cars made a trade off in letting the battery provide the current when the alternator can not. I think it was a reasonable trade off.
The weak points in the design are that the wiring could have been a little heavier and running 45 amps through those bulk head connector pins was a really bad idea from day one, let alone 40 + years later with corrosion on them. I'm sure it was done to provide ease of assembly on the assembly line. Chrysler knew how marginal this system was and for cars with 60 amp alternators the "fleet bypass" wiring modification added heavier wiring and bypassed the bulk head connector entirely. I think that's all we really need today, bypass the bulk head connector, heavier wire, and good clean tight connections on the ammeter. I would also replace the fusible link with a more modern fuse type. Also, a stock type alternator of no more than 60 amps. Then let the ammeter do its dance and nothing will be harmed.
Like I said, everything in the engineering world involves trade offs and there are often multiple solutions to problems. I think each individual car owner is going to have to decide how they want to tackle the electrical issues in their cars and decide what fits best in the way they choose to use their car.
Neil, great idea about adding the impact sensor for the fuel pump wiring. Hope it never gets used but a good safety feature to have just incase.
Any one else have issues with their new harnesses. There is some foam in the plug where it goes to the bulk head and its making it a pain to plug them in. Am I suppose to take out the foam?
Luke
Not sure Luke. I bought a Rebel Wiring harness. I'll let you When (if lol) it turns up... It has no 'bulk head connector' so I suspect I won't have your 'foam' issues tho....
CS
Thanks CS. Someone around here's bound to have a new engine harness they can look at.
Luke
For sure. If I remember rightly, my 'engine side of the bulkhead' harness had foam in it, presumably to keep the water out. I'm not sure though. See what the other guys come up with, and let me know if you need me to uncover my car to check if you don't get anywhere... ;)
CS
Quote from: CaymanSublime on June 26, 2013, 05:42:09 PM
For sure. If I remember rightly, my 'engine side of the bulkhead' harness had foam in it, presumably to keep the water out. I'm not sure though. See what the other guys come up with, and let me know if you need me to uncover my car to check if you don't get anywhere... ;)
CS
Your right the 'engine side of the bulkhead' has the foam. It's a biotch to get them on there. But I did. The old harness didn't have foam in the connections. That's why I was checking. If you Have it then its all good. Thanks CS
Luke
Are you using Caig Labs DeOxIt Gold to protect and make sliding connectors together easy? :scratchchin:
Quote from: b5blue on June 27, 2013, 06:10:58 AM
Are you using Caig Labs DeOxIt Gold to protect and make sliding connectors together easy? :scratchchin:
no, i'm using something else. got it from summit. i'll have to find it.
luke
Ok, so I hooked everything up and got the car started after realizing I forgot to plugin the orange box to dist. Anyway, after it started the ammeter was at +20, now my battery might have been low from the cranking, so would this cause it. Plus I smelt something weird and after turning the car off I touched the ballast resistor with the back of my hand and it was so hot it Burnt my skin. I know that's not right. So if anyone can help me out I think I have some wired wrong.
Luke
If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running! :2thumbs: (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)
Quote from: b5blue on June 29, 2013, 06:34:32 PM
If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running! :2thumbs: (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)
So the hot ballast resistor and smell was ok.
Luke
Hi Luke,
Sounds like you're making progress! On the ballast resistor, you can hold onto something that is about 130 to 140 degrees F much more than that and you'll pull your hand away quickly. Those ceramic encased resistors can run much hotter than you can touch. Some time ago I sent you a link for instructions on wiring up the orange box systems, if you folowed that you will be okay. You might want to double check the wiring. You might be smelling some oils from handling the resistor burning off and that should stop once they burn off.
De-Oxit is the best contact cleaner I have even seen, really amazing stuff!
Quote from: lukedukem on June 29, 2013, 09:12:40 PM
Quote from: b5blue on June 29, 2013, 06:34:32 PM
If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running! :2thumbs: (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)
So the hot ballast resistor and smell was ok.
Luke
Your gauge will tell ya what's going on. It's normal to see + reading as it tops up the battery, with the battery charged and the car running as you turn stuff on you'll just see a reaction bip on the gauge and it will recenter as the regulator adjusts to the new load. It does not measure output like how much extra your headlights, wipers and blower are asking for, it monitors for operational unbalance. If it were to stay in the negative or positive for long it's telling you "something is wrong".
Funny how if your OIL gauge read 0 or 3lb or TEMP read 250 you'd shut down quickly but many see the AMP gauge telling them something is wrong and they bypass the gauge or attempt to "fix" without a proper repair. Many hate on that gauge and I would not run without it.
Quote from: Pete in NH on June 30, 2013, 08:54:22 AM
Hi Luke,
Sounds like you're making progress! On the ballast resistor, you can hold onto something that is about 130 to 140 degrees F much more than that and you'll pull your hand away quickly. Those ceramic encased resistors can run much hotter than you can touch. Some time ago I sent you a link for instructions on wiring up the orange box systems, if you folowed that you will be okay. You might want to double check the wiring. You might be smelling some oils from handling the resistor burning off and that should stop once they burn off.
De-Oxit is the best contact cleaner I have even seen, really amazing stuff!
Thanks Pete. I'm gonna clean it up and charge the battery and try again. I was confused about the wiring for the black voltage box. But if it started I guess I got it right. That ballast just got really hot. It conserned me.
Quote from: b5blue on June 30, 2013, 09:40:13 AM
Quote from: lukedukem on June 29, 2013, 09:12:40 PM
Quote from: b5blue on June 29, 2013, 06:34:32 PM
If you do a bunch of cranking recharge the battery before running! :2thumbs: (1 or 2 minutes of running is OK, but keep the battery topped up before more than that.)
So the hot ballast resistor and smell was ok.
Luke
Your gauge will tell ya what's going on. It's normal to see + reading as it tops up the battery, with the battery charged and the car running as you turn stuff on you'll just see a reaction bip on the gauge and it will recenter as the regulator adjusts to the new load. It does not measure output like how much extra your headlights, wipers and blower are asking for, it monitors for operational unbalance. If it were to stay in the negative or positive for long it's telling you "something is wrong".
Funny how if your OIL gauge read 0 or 3lb or TEMP read 250 you'd shut down quickly but many see the AMP gauge telling them something is wrong and they bypass the gauge or attempt to "fix" without a proper repair. Many hate on that gauge and I would not run without it.
Thanks Neil, I'll charge the battery then. Try again. I had it outta the car for awhile and used it once to jump off my lawn mower. So it needs a good charge before I try again.
So if I start the car the needle should read positive for a couple of minutes then go to center after it recharges battery for the cranking part?
Luke
I can't stress enough how after all you have been through YES!! ALWAYS start with a battery at 100% no less!!! :RantExplode:
Quote from: b5blue on June 30, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
I can't stress enough how after all you have been through YES!! ALWAYS start with a battery at 100% no less!!! :RantExplode:
Got it. It's on the charger now :2thumbs:
Luke
Ok, I put the fully charged battery on and started it. The needle read about middle for about 30 sec. Then it was down the middle, I would rev the motor and still Middle. Turn on parking lights and blip, then dead center.
I think I got it. It seams snappy with this orange box, but that Jacobs box was old and corroded.
I'm still worried about the ballast getting so hot, it still did it. I let the temp gauge come up and then after I shut it down it was still hot. Any one else have this, I know some heat is normal but man I can't touch it with back of my hand. I will do a test drive this week and hopefully I don't burn anything up
Luke
I would not be surprised if the car ran better overall. (Mine did.) With constant voltage/amps to all ignition parts you get a better spark at all RPM's. :2thumbs:
I invested in this http://batterytender.com/products/automotive/battery-tender-junior-12v-at-0-75a.html and also have a battery isolator from moroso and never leave my battery on whenever it's in the garage.
:2thumbs:
I was just looking for one of those. Thank you
Luke
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-74103/overview/
Walmart has them for about 5.00. :2thumbs:
Ok so Thursday I took my car on a trip and it was 30 miles total. This new wires and stuff I put on kicks ass. I'm so glad I went and did all of it. It drove great. So I just wanted to share that with you guys and thank everyone that helped me out. Big thanks.
Now I have a thermostat housing issue that I have to address. I went to take the hose off and it broke the neck off.
But that a different thread.
If any one has any questions. After reading this PM me and I'll try and help. Later
Luke
Hey Luke, glad the drive went well. I have my new harness to put in, so hopefully she'll be back up and running again soon. I'm going to move my battery to the boot (trunk) I think, primarily so that I can have a battery kill switch on the 'hot wire' as it runs past the drivers' seat. That way I can just turn the power off every time I park it. I accept that I cannot isolate the battery from the wire up to the kill switch this way, but that's a compromise I'm willing to accept. I have a disconnect on the battery up front at the moment, like the one pictured above, but getting the bonnet (hood) open and getting the disconnect off in a hurry still proved tricky....
CS
:2thumbs: to you both!
Hi Luke,
Great to hear your car is back on the road and in good running condition. Sounds like all your hard work and at times head scratching paid off!
Quote from: b5blue on July 05, 2013, 04:50:00 AM
Walmart has them for about 5.00. :2thumbs:
These are junk. Just went and bought two of them. Tried both and even with the knob backed all the way and completely removed I still had voltage across the terminal.
Quote from: chargd72 on July 16, 2013, 02:00:54 PM
Quote from: b5blue on July 05, 2013, 04:50:00 AM
Walmart has them for about 5.00. :2thumbs:
These are junk. Just went and bought two of them. Tried both and even with the knob backed all the way and completely removed I still had voltage across the terminal.
I must have gotten lucky, mine is going on 18 years old and fine! :scratchchin:
Quote from: b5blue on July 17, 2013, 05:52:02 AM
Quote from: chargd72 on July 16, 2013, 02:00:54 PM
Quote from: b5blue on July 05, 2013, 04:50:00 AM
Walmart has them for about 5.00. :2thumbs:
These are junk. Just went and bought two of them. Tried both and even with the knob backed all the way and completely removed I still had voltage across the terminal.
I must have gotten lucky, mine is going on 18 years old and fine! :scratchchin:
If yours were made 18 years ago they were probably made before cheap outsourced ones tooke their place.
omit the ammeter....it's outdated and a fire hazzard...check out MAD electrical and get educated.
Quote from: lukedukem on July 07, 2013, 09:24:38 PM
Ok so Thursday I took my car on a trip and it was 30 miles total. This new wires and stuff I put on kicks ass. I'm so glad I went and did all of it. It drove great. So I just wanted to share that with you guys and thank everyone that helped me out. Big thanks.
Now I have a thermostat housing issue that I have to address. I went to take the hose off and it broke the neck off.
But that a different thread.
If any one has any questions. After reading this PM me and I'll try and help. Later
Luke
Cool stuff, it worked out for ya
Quote from: lukedukem on July 07, 2013, 09:24:38 PM
Ok so Thursday I took my car on a trip and it was 30 miles total. This new wires and stuff I put on kicks ass. I'm so glad I went and did all of it. It drove great. So I just wanted to share that with you guys and thank everyone that helped me out. Big thanks.
Luke
it's been almost a year since i did this update, and now i'm having issues again. from this thread you can see i upgraded my car to 70's style stuff with pete's help. kept the amp gauge and did nachos upgrade too. all new harnesses. now what my car is doing is this. when i start the car and drive it the
amp gauge bounces back and forth, it used to sit dead middle after charging battery power it used to start car. saturday night i drove a night and the
lights where surging. sunday morning i put my meter and the battery and it read 13. something volts. i started the car and it jumped between 15 something to 14 something, back and forth. can't figure out what is going on now. is the voltage regulator going on this.
luke
That's what my first guess would be: the regulator...
Hi Luke,
I went back through this thread and as far as I can tell you're running a big Denso 120 amp alternator with a Chrysler electronic regulator. It could be a bad regulator but, I've not seen many failures with the real Chrysler part they seem to be quite reliable.
I would check around the system for a loose connection before changing the regulator. Make sure the following connections are clean and tight wire on the alternator output stud, Wires on the ammeter studs, and wires on the battery stud on the starter relay. Also make sure the grounds are good in the system. The alternator case to the engine block and it may help to run a ground bonding wire here from the alternator case to the engine block. The voltage regulator case to the firewall make sure the mounting screws are tight with no rust or paint in the way with external or internal tooth lock washers to bite into the metal. Make sure both the battery terminals are clean and tight.
I know you have bypassed the bulk head connector pins but, trace along the new wiring and make sure everything is connected well. Did you use a fusible link or Maxi-fuse in a holder? Make sure those connections a clean and tight as well.
Good luck and let us know what you find.
Quote from: Pete in NH on June 09, 2014, 03:07:25 PM
Hi Luke,
I went back through this thread and as far as I can tell you're running a big Denso 120 amp alternator with a Chrysler electronic regulator. It could be a bad regulator but, I've not seen many failures with the real Chrysler part they seem to be quite reliable.
I would check around the system for a loose connection before changing the regulator. Make sure the following connections are clean and tight wire on the alternator output stud, Wires on the ammeter studs, and wires on the battery stud on the starter relay. Also make sure the grounds are good in the system. The alternator case to the engine block and it may help to run a ground bonding wire here from the alternator case to the engine block. The voltage regulator case to the firewall make sure the mounting screws are tight with no rust or paint in the way with external or internal tooth lock washers to bite into the metal. Make sure both the battery terminals are clean and tight.
I know you have bypassed the bulk head connector pins but, trace along the new wiring and make sure everything is connected well. Did you use a fusible link or Maxi-fuse in a holder? Make sure those connections a clean and tight as well.
Good luck and let us know what you find.
oops i left that out. i didn't go with the big 120 amp alt. i stuck with a 70's one. i think they are at 65 amps? yes i did use a fuseable link as well. i'll take a look tonight and see what i find
luke
Ok Pete, I checked all the connections and plugs. But found nothing. I have a video of what is going on.
http://youtu.be/86-_Jiz8Gjs
I hope the link works. Before start up I read 13.05 volts on the battery, see what you think.
And the guage bumps down when I turn the key because of the electric fuel pump
Luke
Luke I'd check out the gauge at this point, that's some wild crap going on! :scratchchin:
Quote from: b5blue on June 10, 2014, 05:32:40 AM
Luke I'd check out the gauge at this point, that's some wild crap going on! :scratchchin:
That gauge is f'd!
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on June 10, 2014, 06:06:01 AM
Quote from: b5blue on June 10, 2014, 05:32:40 AM
Luke I'd check out the gauge at this point, that's some wild crap going on! :scratchchin:
That gauge is f'd!
but what about the lights. why are they doing that. can't be caused by the gauge, can it? i can try to bypass the gauge when i get home to see but i'm thinking the lights will still do what they currently do in the video. i like having the gauge because it tells me what is going on in the car with my charging system, tells me something is up.
luke
Luke,
I don't think the ammeter gauge is the problem. I agree with you it is only trying to report what is happening in the charging system. The voltmeter is all over the place too. I would bet if you had an analog voltmeter on it, it too would be swinging as wildly as the ammeter. Your digital voltmeter can not keep up with the very rapid changes.
I still think it looks very much like a bad connection somewhere. I would check one more thing since you said you have looked at the wiring closely for a loose connection. You may have to take the alternator off to do this but, take a really close look at the brush holders and brushes on the back of the alternator and make sure the brushes are free to move in the holders and that the holders are not cracked and the round insulator on the mounting screws are intact.
If that all checks out, unplug the voltage regulator. If the system voltage continues to swing around wildly there is a wiring problem some where. If the voltage settles down and the ammeter shows a steady discharge, I would replace the voltage regulator. There may be a break on the printed circuit board internally in the regulator
Quote from: Pete in NH on June 10, 2014, 07:38:42 AM
Luke,
I don't think the ammeter gauge is the problem. I agree with you it is only trying to report what is happening in the charging system. The voltmeter is all over the place too. I would bet if you had an analog voltmeter on it, it too would be swinging as wildly as the ammeter. Your digital voltmeter can not keep up with the very rapid changes.
I still think it looks very much like a bad connection somewhere. I would check one more thing since you said you have looked at the wiring closely for a loose connection. You may have to take the alternator off to do this but, take a really close look at the brush holders and brushes on the back of the alternator and make sure the brushes are free to move in the holders and that the holders are not cracked and the round insulator on the mounting screws are intact.
If that all checks out, unplug the voltage regulator. If the system voltage continues to swing around wildly there is a wiring problem some where. If the voltage settles down and the ammeter shows a steady discharge, I would replace the voltage regulator. There may be a break on the printed circuit board internally in the regulator
thanks pete, i'll check the alt.when i get home today. if nothing there i'll unplug the voltage regulator. should i do this before or after starting the car. or does it matter?
luke
I would unplug the regulator before staring the car.
That rate of swing is faster then the volt regulator can react. My idea was if the gauge was failing it would pulse the lights, that is a really weird gauge swing! :eek2: You can make a gauge adapter by feeding a gauge off the lighter socket. Use a cigarette lighter powered plug that plugs into the lighter socket to draw power hooked to a gauge. Jump the back of the dash gauge, plug in the test rig and see what happens. :shruggy:
Ok, so here's my report. Got home and removed alt. and looked at brushes and just looked it over. Then I removed my air cleaner cause I needed to adjust my electric choke also. It was idling to high when cold. Then I unplugged my voltage regulator and started the car. The cold idle was good and the needle of the amp meter was not jumping around. So that tells me I need a new voltage regulator. BUT then I plugged it back in and fired it up and it seams to be working now. It still bumps when I use brakes or lights. The tester on the battery stays at 14.5 on the dot. And the lights still might have a pulse to them. But not as bad. Maybe that was it. And maybe doing the relays for the lights will cure this. Although it does it to the dash lights inside. Hmmm. Not sure, but I need to test drive it this week and see what the guage does.
Any thoughts.
Luke.
Great news! :2thumbs: Possibly not so good contact in the connector plug to the regulator? I use Caig Labs D100L DeoxIT on all/any connections, it may help. (Radio Shack.)
Hi Luke,
I think you found the problem. As Neal said it is likely the connector to the regulator was not making a good connection. De Oxit is the best contact cleaner I have ever found and a little bit on those two connector pins may take care of the problem. If not perhaps just replace the connector on the wire harness. At least you know where to look if it happens again.
yeah, thanks guys. i'll pick some up.
what do you think about the dash lights pulsing like that. they still do it, slightly
luke
I'd get the DeoxIT every where next and see. Years ago I bought a "big" bottle...25ml. and have gone through every connection, even light bulb sockets on my Charger along with bunches of stuff for my home. As the bottle has a needle type tip that lets you coat just where it's needed I still have 2/3 of a bottle left. It even helps connectors slide together or apart as it lubes but won't harm any rubber or plastic. (I hate to sound like an ad but the stuff works.)
Do you guys use it on the bulkhead connectors as well? I'm about done with the electrical on mine so I thought to smother the connectors in dielectric grease before I pop them on for the last time.
Yes Dino, I treated my bulkheads with salt and vinegar to clean, flushed with 91% alcohol in a spray bottle very thoroughly, let then dry out then coated with DeoxIT. The grease is a fine protector as it blocks oxygen and water but will not clean. :2thumbs:
Caig Labs has a protector also called "Gold".
Quote from: b5blue on June 12, 2014, 05:24:25 AM
Yes Dino, I treated my bulkheads with salt and vinegar to clean, flushed with 91% alcohol in a spray bottle very thoroughly, let then dry out then coated with DeoxIT. The grease is a fine protector as it blocks oxygen and water but will not clean. :2thumbs:
Caig Labs has a protector also called "Gold".
If something's better than the grease then I'm all for it. I'm taking no chances after all this work! :2thumbs:
Quote from: RIDELIKEHELL on July 03, 2013, 04:13:19 PM
:2thumbs:
Those battery shut off swithes is something you have to use over here in sweden
You dont get any insurance if not using one of those