ECS REPRODUCTION BUILD SHEET LIST

[706pkvert]

Who feels ECS owes it to the hobbyists to divulge the reproduction buildsheets he had made over the past few years to the public? The reproduction buildsheets are a black eye on the hobby and ECS should aid in preventing future fraud by divulging his list.

[69CoronetRT]

Legally, they are no different than any other reproduction part.

Would you expect all makers of all aftermarket parts to divulge the same information?

Unless somone uses a remade BS to perpetrate a fraud, there is nothing wrong with them. "Sold for novelty use only".

"But they are used to make people think something that may not be true."

OK...are you going to make owners pull stripes and emblems that don't belong there off of their cars?

Slippery slope....

[ECS]

After this thread runs its course, lets start one about Sporting Goods Stores that sell Baseball Bats.   Should they disclose EVERY person who has purchased one because a handful of crooks to use them as their weapon of choice to commit their crimes? 

One of these days Mike, you will look back and regret the path and/or "click" you have chosen to side with.  I hope somewhere down the line you smarten up and become the person you pretend to be.  Best of Luck!

[706pkvert]

I haven't sided with anyone. I am an independent Dave!

About that list, it would be great if you would help the hobby by exposing the reproduction sheets you have made...why hide them? It may only lead to future deception, lies and fraud.

[JB400]

Considering the cars are owned by someone else besides ECS, wouldn't that be the decision of the owner of the car to release any information pertaining to that particular car, instead of ECS?




                                                   

[69CoronetRT]

It may only lead to future deception, lies and fraud.

I do not think it is wise to limit liberty and commerce because of something someone MIGHT do.

But that seems to be the trend.

Slippery slope.....

[Rolling_Thunder]

....Personally....           I don't have an opinion....         You can post a list or not...      have any frauds occurred thus far?  If so...   that's a shame - but you can't control everyone and everything...       

[68X426]

  have any frauds occurred thus far?         

x2.

Here we go again.

This was fought over, and over again, the last 2 years at Moparts. Hundreds of posts, eventually several combatants lobbing nuclear bombs. Mike, you and many others are obviously opposed to how Dave does business. Can you let it go? Or are we stuck with a long, boring, month or more of insults, only to be left with a very beaten dead horse?

[4cruzin]

 

[hatersaurusrex]

Who feels ECS owes it to the hobbyists to divulge the reproduction buildsheets he had made over the past few years to the public? The reproduction buildsheets are a black eye on the hobby and ECS should aid in preventing future fraud by divulging his list.

Whiny drama queens who troll forums looking to start shit are a worse black eye to any hobby than some pieces of paper with imaginary numbers on them.

[Tilar]

To me it's just like that list of gun owners that newspaper put out. It's nobody's damn business who I or anyone else does business with.  If they have a VIN and fender tag to match, why would you spend the energy to care if it is a reproduction?

[706pkvert]

This poll isn't about fights. If you took the time to read ECS's posts over the past 2 years on multiple mopar forums, you would realize I am the one who has beared the brunt of his misinformation and strategic spins.

What I am suggesting would allow people to have the best of both worlds. ECS would be able to freely make reproduction buildsheets for display/novelty use only but a public list of the repros should be available to keep the unscrupulous folks in check and prevent possible fraud down the line.

This all came about because fraud may have already happened with one of his sheets! He made a display sheet for one of my customers car who had misplaced his original. 2 new owners later, the car is on ebay with a picture of the repro sheet!

A list disclosing the repro sheets he's already made would most certainly help negate any thoughts of trying to "fake" anything!!

This is a positive thing, we just need to get ECS on board. This would be for the good of the hobby and help defend the value a true original sheet adds to a vehicle.

[Tilar]

This all came about because fraud may have already happened with one of his sheets!

May have already happened? not already happened? Sounds like a knee jerk reaction to something that might happen. Like I said above, if the VIN and fender tag match, what makes any difference? 

Someone tell me honestly, if you have a car and the vin and the fender tag matches the title (or in the case of a 68 where the fender tag matches the order number) but you have NO build sheet, are you really going to get any less than what you would if you had the build sheet? And if so, what would the perceived percentage difference be? I'm betting if the truth were known, it would matter on less than a 1% of all sales if any. If someone wants the car, they'll buy it.

[AKcharger]

I want a broadcast sheet for my car!

[TUFCAT]

The concept was flawed from the beginning.  I can't find any upside to manufacturing or possesing a "perfect broadcast sheet" indistinguishable from an original.  The only benefit to anyone now or in the future is to mislead...

ECS should have used a watermark, trademark, company logo or something to distinguish their reproduction from the original. MY two cents. 

[Nwcharger]

I have my broadcast sheet for my 68 rt and its readable but its super fragile. I wouldn't mind having another made to match the original. I don't see a problem with something like that. Now a custom build sheet that has options that where not on the car originally is a different story. 

[AKcharger]

Went to ECS web site but coulnd't find broadcast sheet advertised...where are they?

[TUFCAT]

I have my broadcast sheet for my 68 rt and its readable but its super fragile. I wouldn't mind having another made to match the original. I don't see a problem with something like that. Now a custom build sheet that has options that where not on the car originally is a different story.  

The key is perserving the original. Who cares if its tattered. Nobody but you and the next owner need to see it.

If you decide to have a replacement broadcast sheet made for display with an additional watermark, logo, or trademark distinguishing it as a reproduction that shouldn't make any difference.

I'm not worried about guy's like you.  There's no deception because your original sheet is safely tucked away, and can be validated should you ever decide to sell.

The problem is what to do with fake ones indistinguishable from originals...??  and then what happens to the hobby if passed to a future owner as original documentation?

Any reproduction piece of original vehicle documentation should always be distinguishable from the original. That's where ECS has made a mistake - - in my opinion.    

[hemi68charger]

...

Any reproduction piece of original vehicle documentation should always be distinguishable from the original. That's where ECS has made a mistake - - in my opinion.    

Just an observatoin:

This is a case of:
Danged if you do, Danged if you don't.... I'm glad AMD strives to be as close to the former than the later. If they weren't, no one would buy their product and their business would be akinned to JC Whitney..... In all honesty, most businesses strive to be as close to perfection as possible. I believe ECS has come as close as someone could possibly be.. I'm personally glad I strive to be as perfect as I can possibly be when I load bombs on Fighters. Technology is the perfect example of an initial intended use and then someone using it for their own diabolical reasons. Granted, 'documentation' isn't in the same field as loading bombs,,,, Thank God......

[A383Wing]

[RJS]

STOP THE NONSENSE, before we all buy Hugo's

[resq302]

Honestly, weren't buildsheets lucky to even be with the correct car since they were garbage once the part(s) was installed and supposed to be tossed?  I would say that 95% of the cars do not have them or do not have the correct one so what is the big deal?

Regarding the pole..... I could care less if Dave makes a list or not.  I am sure that if someone will fraudulently do something with it, he will let everyone know.  (if he hasn't already)

[TUFCAT]

In this hobby, when all else fails, people look for a solid paper trail. Its all about having a rock solid paper trail and documentation to have a valuable collector's item.

There, I said it again... PAPER!! PAPER!! PAPER!!

Troy, you of all people should realize how much money is needed to have rock solid paperwork on an aero car.  If it doesn't matter, you'll pay less for your investment.

Generally speaking people who don't care about original paperwork, are the same people who don't have it.  

[resq302]

Actually, we have the  build sheet and other paperwork on our chally vert but not on my charger so, again, for me, it really doesn't matter.

[ECS]

Actually, we have the  build sheet and other paperwork on our chally vert but not on my charger so, again, for me, it really doesn't matter.

What I can't figure out is what makes Mike think that anyone other than he and Tony have received these sheets!?!  Maybe he should start a list of recipients that he "feels" might have received one.  Coming from a restoration guy who won't show a single "Before" picture to substantiate his OE work, I find HIS request comical at best!  

Mike is asking the wrong question in this poll.  What he should be asking everyone is:

Does ECS give a rats ripple what Mike Mancini thinks they should or shouldn't do?