Question for the old timers on here.

[Todd Wilson]

I have a question for the old timers on here that drove the Mopar Muscle cars back in the day. Since my dad is gone now I cant ask him..........

I am talking about people here old enough to have bought a 69 Charger brand new off the show room or any of the other cars.


My question is how reliable were these cars back in the day. How well did they hold up on the street running a 440 or a 426 Hemi hard every weekend street racing and stuff? I'm talking about thrashing something brand new and then taking it in for warranty work. Did they hold up well or have troubles after they were beat on a lot?!?!   I read a lot on the Dodge truck forums and I hear the Dodge Trucks have transmission problems blah blah blah  and it got me to thinking these trucks are twisting 600+lbs of tork and are usually tuned up a lot from stock.  What really happened back in the day running a Hemi the same way..............




Todd

[hemi*guy]

 

        My car is A 1970 HEMI CHARGER, I've been around this car since 1971 when I was 8 years old. The man who owned it would use it as his daily driver for years, even commuting to work with it. i don't remember him having trouble with it while he used it, it was when he let it sit that the troubles began. Well my  anyway.

[71 SE3834V]

Interesting footnote, while looking around on the net I found some info where some years, back in the late 60's/70's, there were warranties beyond the 1st year. Now I heard it said certain cars weren't covered cause they knew they were going to be raced but I didn't think extended warranties started until the 80"s  but then again I didn't buy any new cars until 1980. My thought on longer warranties is they are selling points. The company is so confident in their product they'll cover it longer. Maybe I'm wrong.

As far as things like the transmissions etc. Crap happens, my opinion is there are potential problems w/every vehicle. The people w/problems will complain most and they have every right too but whens the last time you've seen a forum/webite dedicated to singing the praises about a vehicle.
Here's my own opinion on Dodge transes. I've bought 6 new trucks since 1983 to be used for snowplowing. I run 'em hard but don't abuse them. It's been exactly 50-50, (3) as far as the trans' needing to be rebuilt and 1 my have been my fault. When you add in 1 other brand that I bought new it swings too 3 rebuilt, 4 not. Also bought 5 used trucks of various brands that I had other drivers use. Again it was 2 rebuilt 3 not during the years that I had it and one of those may have been driver abuse.
Well that's my 

[green69rt]

I bought my first 69  offout of the showroom.   Charger RT 440 auto 323 open rear.   Never did much with it for maintenance, mostly oil changes and tires (went thru tires fast!!)  Drove it from Norfolk Va to Idaho falls Idaho more than a couple of times and never had any problems.  As best I can remember I changed or fixed the following:

Oil/filter.
Trans fluid/filter.
tires
starter
u-joints
brakes/wheel cylinders
misc lights
alternator/regulator
Ignition/starter resister.
horn switch
plugs/points/condenser
shocks

Looking over the list, it looks like pretty vanilla stuff.   I had the car till 76 and then sold it off for parts because everything was pretty much eat up from all the years in Idaho, Connecticut, by the ocean and in central Missouri.  It had about 110,000 miles on it.  At that point I was starting to run into electrical wiring issues from corrosion, especially in the engine bay.  Engine still ran great and I never touched the trans except to put a manual valve body kit in.

[ACUDANUT]

I am talking about people here old enough to have bought a 69 Charger brand new off the show room or any of the other cars.

[green69rt]

Forgot to say I was 23 when I got mine.  Did a little street racing but it was a heavy car with a high speed rear so not much luck but it crazy fun to try.  Also the looks were a hit with the ladies.  I thought the drive train was just about indestructable.   My wife would  commute in it during 1973 and one time (after the manual valve body was installed, with the altered shift pattern) when leaving work and doing about 25 mph she just threw it into reverse .  Trans did what it was told and a bunch of smoke and noise came from under the rear of the car (tires burning) and a bunch of white smoke out of the hood.  Ends up that the engine torqued over so far that the power steering fitting on top of the column had been broken off and pumped fluid all over the side of the block and headers.  That was all that happened.   Did it again about a year later (same result.)  She really didn't like that manual shift pattern!!!

[rick@laysons]

Dealership warranty work was entirely dependent on the service manager at whatever dealership you were at. Some dealerships were most definately better than others when it came to the muscle cars......and some dealerships didn't want anything to do with a musclecar period.

As far as reliability...well, they were pretty decent if you didn't beat on them too awful much and kept things well serviced and maintained.

The wiring was the weakest part of these cars.....

[Scaregrabber]

A guy who wasn't a great driver would probably go through a few clutches. Alternators 60,000 miles maybe, perhaps the same for starters, tires lasted 10,000 miles if you didn't burn them up. The automatic cars had a lot fewer troubles than the four speeds just because of the abuse.
Mopars lasted way better than Fords or GM's when it came to musclecars. GM's would spit up clutches, transmissions, U-joints and rearends at an alarming rate with a big block. Ford's engines didn't seem to handle the abuse that a Mopar could either.
Mopars weren't bulletproof but they were the best of the best.

Sheldon

[odcics2]

Chrysler came out with the '5/50' powertrain warranty in the 60s.

I know for a fact that the 727 Torqueflite could handle numerous neutral drops without a problem.   
Try that today..... 

[Cooter]

Chrysler came out with the '5/50' powertrain warranty in the 60s.

I know for a fact that the 727 Torqueflite could handle numerous neutral drops without a problem.    

That's abuse, not running one hard . To my knowledge, many of the old guys I talked to at the dealership service/sales level said musclecars were NOT a hot ticket for sales. They were more trouble than they were worth. Like the 5.0 litler mustangs of '87-'93. Ford KNEW how to "Design" the rear suspension to keep that "S-10" T-5 tranny in those things and people STILL brought 'em in with 2nd and 3rd gears Crushed. I can only emagine what would happen today if someone bought in a stick car with 3rd gear sheered clean off, and enough NOS solenoids to power a small town on the intake.

Warranty was the key when selling musclecars as I heard it, and NO dealer wanted to have to warranty much. So, they sold the big ol land barges to granny and grand pa.

I did ask one of the state troopers here one time that was around back then if he heard of any of those special "Hemi cop cars" everybody seems to think were widely available....He replied, "The Hemi was a hard engine to keep in top tune and maintain. Cost of maintaining a racing engine wasn't very prudent for law enforcement. Plus, the 440 would run down bout anything out on the higway back then anyway and was cheaper too boot".

[RECHRGD]

I bought my first '68 RT new from Pasadena Dodge on Colorado Blvd..  I got the 440 rather that the HEMI because of the cost difference and the 5year drivetrain warranty.  The HEMI only had a one year warranty.  I only kept the car for about 1 1/2 years and put about 35k miles on it.  I did the usual street race here and there with several trips to the old Erwindale raceway.  The brakes were the "heavy duty" 11" drums and were useless at any high speed.  Tried everything from different drums and shoes but nothing ever fixed the problem.  The 440 had a warped valve at about 25k.  I had to go to several different dealerships before finding one that would fix it, because I had headers on it.  When it started developing a weird noise around the right front wheel, I traded it in on a VW......

[Kern Dog]

I am talking about people here old enough to have bought a 69 Charger brand new off the show room or any of the other cars.

Word to the masses:
NOT EVERY CAR SOLD WAS ACTUALLY PURCHASED FROM THE SHOWROOM FLOOR. SOME WERE ACTUALLY SITTING OUTSIDE THE BUILDING, PARKED ON THE DEALERSHIP'S SALES LOT.

[Todd Wilson]

I am talking about people here old enough to have bought a 69 Charger brand new off the show room or any of the other cars.

Word to the masses:
NOT EVERY CAR SOLD WAS ACTUALLY PURCHASED FROM THE SHOWROOM FLOOR. SOME WERE ACTUALLY SITTING OUTSIDE THE BUILDING, PARKED ON THE DEALERSHIP'S SALES LOT.

No shit Sherlock..............its a figure of speech...........


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

I bought my first '68 RT new from Pasadena Dodge on Colorado Blvd..  I got the 440 rather that the HEMI because of the cost difference and the 5year drivetrain warranty.  The HEMI only had a one year warranty.  I only kept the car for about 1 1/2 years and put about 35k miles on it.  I did the usual street race here and there with several trips to the old Erwindale raceway.  The brakes were the "heavy duty" 11" drums and were useless at any high speed.  Tried everything from different drums and shoes but nothing ever fixed the problem.  The 440 had a warped valve at about 25k.  I had to go to several different dealerships before finding one that would fix it, because I had headers on it.  When it started developing a weird noise around the right front wheel, I traded it in on a VW......

Great info!


Todd

[Kern Dog]

I am talking about people here old enough to have bought a 69 Charger brand new off the show room or any of the other cars.

Word to the masses:
NOT EVERY CAR SOLD WAS ACTUALLY PURCHASED FROM THE SHOWROOM FLOOR. SOME WERE ACTUALLY SITTING OUTSIDE THE BUILDING, PARKED ON THE DEALERSHIP'S SALES LOT.

No shit Sherlock..............its a figure of speech...........


Todd

I get it. Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond old though. Less than 2% of new cars sold ever sat on the showroom floor, but I always hear somebody talking about the 74  440 Hemi Dart 4 door they bought off the showroom floor.

[Todd Wilson]

I am talking about people here old enough to have bought a 69 Charger brand new off the show room or any of the other cars.

Word to the masses:
NOT EVERY CAR SOLD WAS ACTUALLY PURCHASED FROM THE SHOWROOM FLOOR. SOME WERE ACTUALLY SITTING OUTSIDE THE BUILDING, PARKED ON THE DEALERSHIP'S SALES LOT.

No shit Sherlock..............its a figure of speech...........


Todd

I get it. Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond old though.

And I am asking old questions to old timers................


Todd

[odcics2]

Nice thing about being an 'old timer' is that the cars were just cars and we drove the hell out of them, all year long... 

And where I come from, a neutral drop is NOT abuse!       

[RECHRGD]

Yes, it is just a figure of speech.  Actually I didn't get mine off the showroom floor or the lot.  I special ordered it with the options and color of my choice.  But, the real point is that I bought the car new in '68.  Who gives a fart where you picked it up from.....

[Kern Dog]

A friend of mine special ordered his 71 Road Runner. Over the years it has had different wheels, tires, exhaust systems, intake manifolds but still has the original engine and transmission in the car. The motor has been rebuilt as has the trans.  Reliable? he says the car has never left him stranded. The 383 just keeps on running....

[Cooter]

And where I come from, a neutral drop is NOT abuse!    

Certain areas of countries consider cannibalism not to be taboo, but that don't make it right....
I can see the thread title now.....""Guys, why did my 727 come through my floorboard?" As your picking pieces of that thing out of your legs...

Gentlemen, do not do "Neutral drops"..Not a good idea.

[1BAD68]

Back in the 80's when I was in high school, anytime any of us bought a car or truck (always cheap junk around 200-500 bucks) we did neutral drops. It was like showing your friends how good the car was "hey man. lets see how strong the tranny is"
I never saw one blow out of dozens, were we just lucky?

[DixieRestoParts]

I purchased my first '69 R/t in 1982 as a second hand used car. But, years later I tracked down the original owner and spoke to him. I asked him why he chose a 440 instead of a Hemi. He told me that at the time Hemi's were still new and he was afraid if he had a problem he wouldn't be able to find someone to work on it. He also said that he wanted both A/C and a 4-speed, but he couldn't get both so, he opted for the 4-speed. He also chose the F3 Green color because he liked it. He lived in a rural area north of Chattanooga, TN. My dad lives about an hour northeast of Chattanooga, and can't find a good mechanic.  So, I understand why he was concerned with finding someone to work on a Hemi.

I didn't ask the original owner about reliability, but he did daily drive it until the mid 70's and then he traded it. Multiple owners later, I picked it up on a used car lot and daily drove it to High School my Senior year. It was very original, and hadn't been monkeyed with much. It had different wheels and exhaust tips. That's it. All I did during that time was replace an alternator.

[Cooter]

I never saw one blow out of dozens, were we just lucky?

If you've ever seen one scatter, you'd feel that way for sure. People do stupid things all the time and get away with it, doesn't mean the trans was any Stronger or anything, just means you got "lucky"....

[Todd Wilson]

I never saw one blow out of dozens, were we just lucky?

If you've ever seen one scatter, you'd feel that way for sure. People do stupid things all the time and get away with it, doesn't mean the trans was any Stronger or anything, just means you got "lucky"....

A friend of mine back in the day had a 4 door Impala  and we did N drops all the time in it. One night we got the idea if we went backwards as fast as we could stick it in N and floor it and then kick it into L we do do even better burn outs. We did this a few times and got Top Fuel Burn Out results out of it.............3-4 time we heard a pop and a nasty clunk clunk clunk clunk under the car beating the floor...............ripped the pinion right our of the rear end.  One hell of a smokey burn out though!



Todd

[hemi68charger]

Wow, the 1st thread in which I'm not old-enough to reply !!!!  Thanks Todd........... I do remember however my Dad's former '69 Daytona he bought new, I was 5 years old. Does that count? It was great at the Drive-in Movies..

[Ponch ®]

Not an old timer, but just last week I read something (school related) about how up until the early/mid 60's, American car manufacturers had an "agreement" that they would all offer the same warranty on the cars they sold. They would also bury the terms of the warranty in small print somewhere in a two inch thick contract and - i don't remember exactly - but the terms were pretty bad (something like 3 months and only parts).

BTW- it was a lawsuit against Chrysler...

[odcics2]

I never saw one blow out of dozens, were we just lucky?

If you've ever seen one scatter, you'd feel that way for sure. People do stupid things all the time and get away with it, doesn't mean the trans was any Stronger or anything, just means you got "lucky"....

A friend of mine back in the day had a 4 door Impala  and we did N drops all the time in it. One night we got the idea if we went backwards as fast as we could stick it in N and floor it and then kick it into L we do do even better burn outs. We did this a few times and got Top Fuel Burn Out results out of it.............3-4 time we heard a pop and a nasty clunk clunk clunk clunk under the car beating the floor...............ripped the pinion right our of the rear end.  One hell of a smokey burn out though!



Todd

LOL!  So the trans lasted and the rear gear gave out...
We used to go in reverse and then slam it in drive at 5 grand.   It would leave two 'question marks' of tire rubber on the road, if you did it right.   

Looking back, I guess I am Lucky...   

[RedChargerRob]

"Old Timer" ??   I resemble that remark !!   Since I usually only read here, I thought I'd add my voice on this one. I was "of age" back in the late 60's-early 70's. Heavy into the late-night weekend street action. For hot street cars (non "track"-built), Mopar 440's & BB Chevy were usually the best. Reliability-wise, most stuff was pretty stout, but common failures were clutches & u-joints, Ford A/Trans, GM 10-bolt rears. Your best friend was the service manager you tipped well. And cars actually lasted longer than what the odometers stated, clock-spinning was routine. 

[surmanajaja]

Ford's engines didn't seem to handle the abuse that a Mopar could either.

weird since they actually won so much of the nascar races of the 60´s...and their 9-inch rear ends and toploader trannies are commonly known to be the best ever made.

so I beg to differ.

all basic big block engines were mostly dependable, 454 chev,428 ford,440mopar,455 buick and so on..local guy drove his Hemi belvedere all year round, and the engine went south under warranty. in my opinion all musclecars were more dependable that any of the crap they sell today, but not as dependable as a 1987-1998 toyotas. of course there are parts that wear, but so what, they are cheap to replace and anybody can change them in their driveway if they want to , try that with a new Audi or something...electrical issues and rust were the things that stopped most of them at 5-10 years of age,depending on climate and use.

[Cooter]

Ford's engines didn't seem to handle the abuse that a Mopar could either.

weird since they actually won so much of the nascar races of the 60´s...and their 9-inch rear ends and toploader trannies are commonly known to be the best ever made.
so I beg to differ.

While I love a good ole Top loader, I beg to differ on the trans. If you've ever snapped a mainshaft on a Toploader, you'd understand why. the manishaft "Necks down" right behind the rear bearing. I've sold more A833 Chrysler 4-speeds to Ford and Chevy guys than Mopar guys.

[ws23rt]

I bought My first new car in 1970. A 69 super bee 383. I wanted a hemi car but the sales man talked me out of it. He said it was too much trouble to keep in good tune and I could not afford it. He was right about me not being able to afford it. He also had a super bee on hand and didn't want me to walk away.
  It was a 4sp. I had two clutches and two sincro sets replaced on warranty during the 11 months I power shifted that car to 36000 miles. (went back to the finance co. cause I could not afford it).
  Many times I would run to valve float stomp the clutch and pull the shifter at the same time. With 3.23 gears could
get tire smoke in third gear. Once drove Portland to San Francisco at night at 115-120 mph. Pulled into each gas stop
that was open (6 or 7) and that 383 kept smiling.

[HeavyFuel]

This is a good topic.  We all get completely spoiled with our modern cars, and it's a good question as to what should be expected from our classics.

My first car was a '67 plymouth Fury wagon, 318, and it was pretty reliable.    Not a muscle car but the time frame was right, and it held together pretty good.  It was a very used car when I got it, and drove it pretty hard....I was 17.

[FC7 V code]

I never saw one blow out of dozens, were we just lucky?

If you've ever seen one scatter, you'd feel that way for sure. People do stupid things all the time and get away with it, doesn't mean the trans was any Stronger or anything, just means you got "lucky"....

A friend of mine back in the day had a 4 door Impala  and we did N drops all the time in it. One night we got the idea if we went backwards as fast as we could stick it in N and floor it and then kick it into L we do do even better burn outs. We did this a few times and got Top Fuel Burn Out results out of it.............3-4 time we heard a pop and a nasty clunk clunk clunk clunk under the car beating the floor...............ripped the pinion right our of the rear end.  One hell of a smokey burn out though!



Todd

LOL!  So the trans lasted and the rear gear gave out...
We used to go in reverse and then slam it in drive at 5 grand.   It would leave two 'question marks' of tire rubber on the road, if you did it right.   

Looking back, I guess I am Lucky...   

I'm not quite old enough to have bought one new in the late 60's-early 70's(was about 12 at the time). But I had older Cousins and Uncles who did. Most opted for the 440 or 383. Both seemed pretty stout although on the 440 I knew a number of guys who wrecked the cam by getting well over the red-line when they missed a gear with a 4 speed (did that myself in the early 80's racing a motorcycle, not by missing a gear, but by going above a speed where a 4/10 Dana wasn't suppose to go, which put the 440 well over 6k rpm). Never knew anyone who did up a crankshaft, lower end problems weren't all that common in my area. The 383 seemed really reliable and stood up to tons of abuse without much fuss. Not much experience with the Hemi, only knew of a couple and I recall that they were awesome when right but were temperamental beasts. The 727 was really a strong trans and and I felt you probably could beat most guys running a four speed because of the simple fact was most of them didn't know what they were doing or were intoxicated or a combination of both .
As far as doing a burnout in reverse and then shifting to drive at aprox. 5k rpm a buddy did it for roughly an hour in an AAR while he carved what he called "teardrops" onto a state highway after he split up with his cheating girlfriend. Finally the trans blew but the abuse it suffered before going out was unbelievable. Maybe he was just lucky but I did know a number of people the did some seriously abusive driving with 727's. 4 speeds were more problematic and just because of driver abuse or lack of talent most people burnt through clutches at a fairly alarming rate. Also an issue was the occasionally leaking rear main seal which allowed oil to soak the clutch, not a good combination with a powerful motor. Installation of headers caused some problems especially with a 440 where there wasn't tons of clearance to start with, a Cousins 69 GTX went through a starter roughly every 1500 miles after we put headers on it. The pipes were just to close to the starter and there was no room to fix the issue. After cussing out a few starter jobs in about 5000 miles we went back to the stock manifolds. Performance really didn't seem to suffer from what I could tell, the car was still all you needed and then some. 
Warranty work really depended on how tight you were with someone at your dealership in our area. Some pretty wild things were replaced under the term warranty work while other guys that may have had a fairly valid claim were soaked. It was quite an era to grow up in! Things that would land you in jail now were simply assessed a $100 or less fine back then.

[Pete in NH]

Hello Everyone,

I just found and signed up for this very interesting group. I can speak to some of the issues in this thread as I bought my 1971 Charger as a special order back in the spring of 1971. It was my first new car and I still have it. I remember the 1968's sitting on the floor of the New York Auto Show back in 1968 and thinking they were absolutely beautiful. But being in school at the time there was no way I could afford one. I have always loved the styling of the 68-69-70 Chargers but it was 1971 before I could afford a new car, I was 22 at the time. My charger is a 383 2BBL I was going to order a 4BBL  383 but there was an issue with Holley carb. fires and who wants to see their new car go up in flames!

To address the subject of this thread I just looked up my new car warranty in the glove box papers and the original 1971 warranty was 12 months/12,000 miles. The warranty papers also state the 426 Hemi being a race engine is sold as is with out a warranty. As I recall it I never saw a 440 R/T car on a dealer's lot, let alone a 426 which added $1000 to the price of a $3000 car. Most cars you saw where 318's and even my 383 2BBL B block was not too common in a B body car. My car is very heavily optioned, including disc brakes which were not too common at the time. The car went out the door at $4100 and the dealer made me leave a double deposit when I ordered it saying he would have a hard time selling it if I didn't take it. It was just too expensive a Charger.

Also, to the original question the 71 has always been very reliable in the 13 years it was my daily transportation it never left me stranded by the side of the road. The only warranty issues where a leaking ignition coil and a bad A/C compressor clutch. I get a kick out of people who look old these late 60's and early 70's cars as unreliable, they are what we had back then and they did the job quite well. I still have absolutely no problem with a long trip in the 71. Every time I drive it I'm reminded of how much we've lost in terms of pure fun in driving a car. Today's cars, I think have absolutely no personality, they all look the same and while they provide transportation most do it without any excitement.

Well, I've rattled on long enough, I just wanted to introduce myself and my Charger

[HeavyFuel]

Nice first post, Pete.   

Welcome to the site!

[JB400]

Thanks for your post Pete Welcome to the group

[Pete in NH]

Thank you for the warm welcome! I don't have any digital format photos of my Charger. That's some thing I'll have to fix as soon as she comes out of winter hibernation. We had 8 inches of new snow last week and as all the winter snow melts we get into mud season. So, the Charger doesn't come out until everything drys out. which is usually early May. Thanks again for the welcome and I'll be posting more about my car as soon as i get some photos to go with the story.

[71 SE3834V]

I will be interested to know more about your '71 as I have, what I consider to be a pretty heavily optioned '71 SE. I always like comparing cars. So far with decoding the broadcast sheet and comparing it to listed features on all the brochures/dealer info I can come across I have listed 18 options over and above the SE model. Would very much like to learn more about yours!

[Pete in NH]

Hi,

My 71 is a plain Jane Charger. When I took the salesman's 71SE out I found the bucket seats too low to the floor for my long legs. So, I started with the base car. I still have the two page window sticker here's the list-

Built at Lynch Road Assy. June 1971

WH23 Dodge Charger 8 cyl. 2 Dr. Hardtop
C2Y3 Vinyl Bench Seat
AO1 Light Group
A85 Charger Topper Group
B41 Disc Brakes-Front
B51 Power Brakes
C92 Floor Mats
D34 Torqueflite Transmission
D51 Axle Ratio-2.76
E61 383 CID Engine  8cyl.
F25 Battery – 70 AMP
G11 Tinted Glass-All Windows
H31 Defogger Rear Window
H51 Air Conditioning
J21 Clock-Electric
J25 Windshield Wipers-Variable speed
J41 Pedal Dress-up
J52 I/P Mounted Hood Release
J55 Undercoating and Hood Insulation Pad
R11 Radio- Solid State AM
S13 Rallye Suspension
S77 Power steering
W23 Road Wheels W/Chrome Trim Rings
T46 Tires G78-14 WSW

Not like today, back then you built the car from the ground up! I always thought of it as in a base car you got 4 wheels and a milk box to sit on, everything else was an option.

[Iceyone]

Although I wasn't old enough to buy a new mopar in 69, I do remember the new 69 SE my dad bought new. He drove the the hell out of it on a daily basis. I especially remember the ugly ass Thrush side pipes he put on it. They'd burn your legs if you weren't careful. My dad enjoyed showing us kids how the car would run 100 mph. The quarter panels were rusted out by 1973 and the car was sold in 74 or 75. It was still around while I was in high school and a friend of mine actually owned it. It was still running hard in 1979 and sported a new paint job and the quarters were repaired. My friend would smoke the tires at every stop light. I had a chance to buy it back then but turned it down due to the thrashing I new it had gone through. The car disappeared sometime in the early 80s and I haven't seen it since.