69 Daytona 304 miles

[nascarxx29]

I think this is the E D car Ive heard about over years being a low mile 1 owner daytona.Owned by the pedal car museum guy in WI

**Inactive Link Removed**

[Telvis]

I'm only $670,000 shy of being able to buy it.

[694spdRT]

What is the deal with the trunk wheelhouse not being the same as body color. Is that a Daytona thing?

[Charger_Fan]

What is the deal with the trunk wheelhouse not being the same as body color. Is that a Daytona thing?

Oooh, good eye! That is odd, huh?

[hotrod98]

As far as I know, limelight/sublime was not available in 1969. Superbirds had that color but not Daytonas.
Must have been a repaint.

[johntpr]

It was repainted that non stock color many , many years ago....the inside trunk wheelwells are black because if I recall that car was originally a black car from the factory

[nascarxx29]

Its a X9 black 4 speed car

[hemi68charger]

Yeah, you can see the eccentrics have been painted over...... What a shame on the car.... But, a real creame puff regardless....... A wee bit pricey though I'd say....

[694spdRT]

I thought it might be a repaint but, with the comment "Car Driven from Dealership to Storage in 1969" I didn't want to jump to conclusions. I wonder if the dealership resprayed it or the original owner? 

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Why on the VIN decal is the date 9/69?     Should it have been more of 6/69?

Or is the first "6/" missing??



/

[694spdRT]

Why on the VIN decal is the date 9/69?     Should it have been more of 6/69?

Or is the first "6/" missing??



/

I must be having a total brain meltdown. Did the pre-1970 cars get door VIN# decals. 

Regardless, like Chris said, a 9/69 date code should be during the 1970 production run and early Septmeber built cars at St. Louis(only plant in 1970) would have read "September 1969".

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

could be a special paint coded car u know looks pretty cool -MATT

[Shakey]

I am skeptical but that doesn't mean $hit as I have no intentions of buying it.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Why on the VIN decal is the date 9/69?     Should it have been more of 6/69?

Or is the first "6/" missing??



/

I must be having a total brain meltdown. Did the pre-1970 cars get door VIN# decals.  

Regardless, like Chris said, a 9/69 date code should be during the 1970 production run and early Septmeber built cars at St. Louis(only plant in 1970) would have read "September 1969".

The Daytonas got the 70 VIN decals Ty.

As far as the special order color there was only 2 choices Butterscotch Yellow or Rally Green which is a darker shade than that car.
They would have painted behind the VIN decal and in the trunk if it were a special order color......

[69fuchs]

Elmer Duellman bought the car new, and he is the current owner.  He also has a limelight superbird with 11,000 miles-he bought that car new as well.

He has said that the daytona was lime green when he bought it, it was repainted in 1989-1990 because the paint was flaking off around the window plug.

[694spdRT]

Why on the VIN decal is the date 9/69?     Should it have been more of 6/69?

Or is the first "6/" missing??



/

I must be having a total brain meltdown. Did the pre-1970 cars get door VIN# decals.  

Regardless, like Chris said, a 9/69 date code should be during the 1970 production run and early Septmeber built cars at St. Louis(only plant in 1970) would have read "September 1969".

The Daytonas got the 70 VIN decals Ty.

Thanks Chris,

I didn't know that.

[Shakey]

Also, I have an old muscle car magazine from 1989 with a '69 Charger R/T SE article about this car that sat on a dealers lot for over a year.  It was silver.  The only way the guy would buy it is if they painted it the same as his new Duster, lime light or in the case of the Charger, sublime J5.

BTW Chris, looking at the article now, here is the VIN for your registry.

XS29L9B173582 - got that one already?

Current owner, as of the Fall of 1989 - Timothy Winnie of Jeannette, PA.

1969 Charger R/T SE 440 Auto

[nascarxx29]

The story I read in a old newsletter about Elmer D car is was as is was such a early car .He got it off the assembly line direct from the plant

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

BTW Chris, looking at the article now, here is the VIN for your registry.

XS29L9B173582 - got that one already?

Current owner, as of the Fall of 1989 - Timothy Winnie of Jeannette, PA.

1969 Charger R/T SE 440 Auto

I do now Mike!  Thanks

[BigBlockSam]

you think he'll take my trading stamps for the car. give me a break, that price is ridiculous. it's not a real survivor with a repaint.  my hotrod has 0 miles on it. for the last three yrs. i need a new speedo cable. mileage is easy to fake. nice car  but the price is to high . Rene

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

Also, I have an old muscle car magazine from 1989 with a '69 Charger R/T SE article about this car that sat on a dealers lot for over a year.  It was silver.  The only way the guy would buy it is if they painted it the same as his new Duster, lime light or in the case of the Charger, sublime J5.

iahve that issue and to whoever said special paint only comesin butterscotch and rallye green is way off, i know of a special paint 70 runner close to me that was ordered a chevy blue-MATT

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Also, I have an old muscle car magazine from 1989 with a '69 Charger R/T SE article about this car that sat on a dealers lot for over a year. It was silver. The only way the guy would buy it is if they painted it the same as his new Duster, lime light or in the case of the Charger, sublime J5.

iahve that issue and to whoever said special paint only comesin butterscotch and rallye green is way off, i know of a special paint 70 runner close to me that was ordered a chevy blue-MATT

Ummm...the whoever was me and for 1969 Chargers, R/T's 500's & Daytona's (of which this topic was about) there were only 2- 99 99 colors available.  Butterscotch Yellow & Rallye Green.

[hemi68charger]

Why on the VIN decal is the date 9/69?     Should it have been more of 6/69?

Or is the first "6/" missing??



/

I must be having a total brain meltdown. Did the pre-1970 cars get door VIN# decals. 

Regardless, like Chris said, a 9/69 date code should be during the 1970 production run and early Septmeber built cars at St. Louis(only plant in 1970) would have read "September 1969".

Like Chris eluded to, the Daytonas got the door VIN decal.. Actually, they were the first.. One has to remember, the Daytona was slated to be a '70 model...

Troy

[69_500]

I wish Doug Schellinger would weigh in on this car.

E D bought the car new from what I"ve always been told. Car was painted the lime green, I before it was ever sold. I don't recall if it was E D who wanted it that color, or the dealership who painted it. But it was that color before being sold, or at least that is what I've always been told on the car.

I can assure you that the mileage on this car is not a fake. When I was little I remember going with my dad to see this car, and it was super low miles then, and Doug from the DSAC club and the Winged Warriors have all known about this car from very early on. Always been parked.

[694spdRT]

Why on the VIN decal is the date 9/69?     Should it have been more of 6/69?

Or is the first "6/" missing??



/

I must be having a total brain meltdown. Did the pre-1970 cars get door VIN# decals. 

Regardless, like Chris said, a 9/69 date code should be during the 1970 production run and early Septmeber built cars at St. Louis(only plant in 1970) would have read "September 1969".

Like Chris eluded to, the Daytonas got the door VIN decal.. Actually, they were the first.. One has to remember, the Daytona was slated to be a '70 model...

Troy

The door decal is something I didn't know and it is interesting. Were the Daytonas not pulled off of the assembly line and shipped to Creative? If so when were the VIN# door decals added? Because the standard '69 Charger's that went down the line did not get them I would assume the decals were installed after being pulled from the assembly line and before being shipped to Creative?

Still, why is there a 9/69 date code on it?  Maybe it is just a typo.  I don't doubt it is an original car but, these details are fun to talk about.

[Chris G.]

iahve that issue and to whoever said special paint only comesin butterscotch and rallye green is way off, i know of a special paint 70 runner close to me that was ordered a chevy blue-MATT

Hey Matt, I know of that car. The owner also has a rare XP '70 Charger with the XH/SE option. I can't tell you how many times you have corrected me or educated on this wonderful Mopar hobby. Thanks for all the help. 

I sure miss SilverRT. He should be reinstated.

[TK73]

I sure miss SilverRT. He should be reinstated.

What happened?

[69fuchs]

you think he'll take my trading stamps for the car. give me a break, that price is ridiculous. it's not a real survivor with a repaint.  my hotrod has 0 miles on it. for the last three yrs. i need a new speedo cable. mileage is easy to fake. nice car  but the price is to high . Rene

It IS original miles.  I have seen this car dozens of times, and I know Elmer personally.  I bought my 69 rt from him-he owned my 69 between the time my dad had it and I got it.  It took me almost 15 years to get him to sell it.  

I never even looked at the fender tag,  it didn't seem important at the time.  Galen has the documentation on both of his wing cars.

Elmer has a charger 500 or two as well.  If I can find my pics, I will post them.

[Charger_Fan]

I sure miss SilverRT. He should be reinstated.

What happened?

I dunno, but Mefirst got in the last laugh; http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,9150.msg113368.html#msg113368 

Odd...I didn't notice he had gone.

[hemigeno]

Mr. Duellman's car was listed in the '79 WW newsletter as a black exterior color car.  I wonder if they were logging the fender tag information that was reported, or if the car was still black then?

You can see the rough outline of the tape job they did around the door VIN tag, and there's visible green overspray in several locations - like on the steering wheel, radiator, etc. 

This is a low-mileage car that in some areas would have to be restored to look as low as the miles really are.  $675k...     Will the madness ever stop??

[Ghoste]

Asking and getting are two different things.  Although given all that has transpired of late, someone will likely pay that much.

[69_500]

Gene I was under the impression that his car was painted that green the day or shortly after he purchased it new in 1969. I could be wrong, but remember going to see the car with my dad in the early 80's and it was green then.

[hemigeno]

Gene I was under the impression that his car was painted that green the day or shortly after he purchased it new in 1969. I could be wrong, but remember going to see the car with my dad in the early 80's and it was green then.

Well, I have no real idea myself.  I was only questioning based on the '79 owners list, when the car was shown as being black.  That doesn't mean it definitely was black at that time, it just made me wonder.

[BigBlockSam]

it's a shame, that car hasn't been driven. it was made to go 200 mph not sit in a garage. Rene

[69_500]

I think that most of the cars listed on the 1979 list, were supposed to show what the car came from the factory as.

Case in point is Charger 500 224396 which in 1979 had already been converted to a 4 speed console car, but is listed as it came from the factory as an AUTO no console.

[hemigeno]

I think that most of the cars listed on the 1979 list, were supposed to show what the car came from the factory as.

Case in point is Charger 500 224396 which in 1979 had already been converted to a 4 speed console car, but is listed as it came from the factory as an AUTO no console.

Danny,

That's the answer to the question I was hoping for -  that the Owners List was logging what they knew or thought to be the factory configuration of a car.

Thanks for clearing that up!!!

[69_500]

I'm not positive on that one Gene, but I know on a few cars that to be the case. There is a few others that I know of a color change early on, but are listed with origional colors.

[nascarxx29]

This is the lowest mile daytona to date.But not original color though .But still a original black X9 4 speed car with 304 miles .Earlier in this post I had it showing 309 miles.
Posts: 331


  1969 daytona low mileage recorded cars & Sold to state totals
« on: January 31, 2006, 09:55:40 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive heard about this one in WI of Elmer D from years of being in my club suppose to have close to original low 500 miles on it on this 440 daytona.Then I found this quote on the other mopar board((The Elmer D original owner, [[[[[[[[[[[[[[original 309 mile Daytona]]]]]]]]]]]] was delivered to the dealer in F6 green w/white wing, strange thing is that the fender tag says it's X9 black w/red wing!)) .Then I have a Pa car of Dennis S thats a 440 1700 mile car and being used as reference in a car magazine.Tim S of PA old 440 daytona now Bob M in Ohio was a MCG low mileage feature car 1700 miles or some.Followed by the Otis Chandler Brown 4 speed hemi daytona with 5000 miles on it .Formerly owned by Pa Don K then to Greg J to Otis Chandler hands .Restored by Roger Gibson.Now Tim W car of ALThen the Va dealership Dressler motors 6000 mile 440 daytona was also a magazine reference story car feature.Then Larry B of IN his old 440 dealer installed 6 pack daytona now in MI of Browney M has 6700 at the time it was sold and later repainted and restored back to R4 red.Then NJ Chris S MCG featured daytona had 17'000 miles on a Vance Cummings of Mi restored 440 daytona .About the same miles for PA Barry Kanicks daytona 17'000 440 daytona.My 440 daytona has 22.000 on it.The NY B5 blue MCG featured car of B Cards had 23'000 miles on it.Followed by a Y2 440 daytona from NY with 22'000 Same goes for another NJ car of Joe G all chromed 440 to a 426 22'000 miles or so .Then a B5 Newport RI 440 car I think has  11'000 miles on it as described here on the board in the daytona with vinyl top post.These are recorded in my notes over the years and shows .Ive been to so the may have changed hands and mileages may have varied since I recorded them last So if you can furnish anymore or update with a new one.So I have one 5000 mile hemi daytona and the rest are 440-s. The other daytona related compilage. I did a while ago was daytona per state totals
69 Daytona list per state totals going from the current standing list number to date #501 cars from pages supplied in my club newsletter that shows the new car shipments for 69 daytonas and locations shipped to Including serial numbers and dealer number and dealer location. Also shows what states did and did not recieve a 69 daytona .Starting with the 440s AL-11 AZ-5 AR-2 CANADA 45 CA-38 CO-12 CON-2 DE-1 FL-16 GA-16 HAWAII-2 ID-1 IL-22 IN-21 IA-3 KAN-7 KEN-5 LOU-7 ME-1 MD-2 MASS-5 MI-26 MINN-3 MISS-1 MO-21 MONT-1 NEB-4 NV-2 NH-2 NJ-6 NY-26 NC-13 NDKT-1 SDKT-4.OH-25 OK-9 ORE-7 PA-23 RI-3 SC-4 TN-5 TX-20 UT-1 VT-1 VA-13 WA ST-7 WA-DC-2 W VA-1 WI-9-The 426 states AZ-1 CANADA-5 CA-7 CO-3 GA-1 IL-1 IN-1 KAN-1 MD-1 MI-2 MO-1 NY-1 NC-1 OH-3 PA-1 SC-1 TX-3 WVA-1 WI-1 .Total #501 465- 440 Hemi-36 for the 47 states 1 line was unreadable unknown state. 2 cars were 440 dodge exec cars with no dealer location in house cars and figured in with the MI total.Only #3 states didnt recieve 69 Daytona on this current list Alaska-New Mexico-Wyoming .

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,9246.msg111181.html#msg111181

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Anyone with any input on the door decal?  Why the 9/69 date?  Geno, does your Daytona have a full date or just the month/year like that one??

[nascarxx29]

I dont think my car has the door decal on it.And its a very original 22.000 mile car either it was forgot at the factory or fell off. I didnt see no old outline of it being there. When it was new picture circa 70-s.And how it stands today as seen on carsinbarns like something like 35 36 years later below

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Mmmmm is that R6? 

[nascarxx29]

http://www.carsinbarns.com/Superbirds%20&%20Daytonas/pg22.html


No its R4 red not the R6
Somewhere like 35 36 years later

[PocketThunder]

http://www.carsinbarns.com/Superbirds%20&%20Daytonas/pg22.html     Somewhere like 35 36 years later 

  Wanna trade for a 500?....??  ....

[nascarxx29]

[[[[Elmer Duellman]]]] still owns this ultra low mileage original Superbird.   This photo was taken in 1975 wth 11,000 miles.  When I saw the car a year ago, it only had 13,000 miles on it.  It still wears its original paint with the advertising for Elmers Auto Salvage.  .This is the guy who own the daytona a superbird on this link and 69 charger 500s.
http://www.superbirdclub.com/customaero.html    He also has a large collection pedal car museum

[hemigeno]

Anyone with any input on the door decal?  Why the 9/69 date?  Geno, does your Daytona have a full date or just the month/year like that one??

Chris, my original decal was removed.  I can see where the outline of the adhesive was, so I know it had one.  When they do have one, it did not have a full date - just the month and year.  Jim (3--daytona) probably has one on his green car.  ECS Automotive Concepts makes spot-on repros of the VIN stickers.  I think the Daytona sticker fonts are just a little different than most, from talking with Dave Walden (owner of ECS Automotove).

ECS Automotive VIN Tag page

David Patik (Performance Car Graphics) has pointed out before that not all Daytonas came with the VIN sticker, so it's not unheard of for an original unrestored Daytona to be stickerless.  Could be that the line workers just plain forgot to put them on some cars.

Dave B. - I don't recall what your VIN is, but I would be curious to know its build date - if it's an early car, that might lead us to believe that only the later-built cars got the stickers.  Mine is a 6/9 car, which is fairly late in the run, and it had a sticker.  That's still just a guess though.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

OK Geno so if its the month & year why is this one 9/69?    That would be for a 70 model year no?

Could this be a "70 Daytona"    

[nascarxx29]

606 June 6th car built on a Fri. Its was purchased and picked up 4 -25-70 Shipping date is 8-30-69 .The car above mine is this california dealer sold hemi daytona.

[PocketThunder]

[[[[Elmer Duellman]]]] still owns this ultra low mileage original Superbird.   This photo was taken in 1975 wth 11,000 miles.  When I saw the car a year ago, it only had 13,000 miles on it.  It still wears its original paint with the advertising for Elmers Auto Salvage.  .This is the guy who own the daytona a superbird on this link and 69 charger 500s.
http://www.superbirdclub.com/customaero.html    He also has a large collection pedal car museum

I was there in 1994, he's just down the river from me.  I saw the low mileage bird but not the Daytona.  Here is his link www.elmersautosalvage.com

[hemi68charger]

606 June 6th car built on a Fri. Its was purchased and picked up 4 -25-70 Shipping date is 8-30-69 .The car above mine is this california dealer sold hemi daytona.

Oh my goodnesss !!!!!   Schwing !!!!!

Troy

[nascarxx29]

I had contacted the white hemi daytona guy .As our cars are the same vin sequence except for the last number.Its just like the lottery I missed it by 1 number.

[hemigeno]

606 June 6th car built on a Fri. Its was purchased and picked up 4 -25-70 Shipping date is 8-30-69.

Well, there goes that theory.  It was just a guess anyway, but that's probably why David Patik and others have just flatly said some got the stickers, some didn't.  No apparent rhyme or reason.  Mine was scheduled to be built the next working day (yes, I know it's a Monday car   ), but shipped from Creative three days earlier on 8/27 and it had a sticker.

Another question for you Dave, while we're talking about your car - what is the assembly date on your engine?  My bet is that it is REAL close to if not on your car's SPD.  I know of a Daytona with an SPD of 6/4 whose numbers-matching engine has an assembly date of 6/6 - two days after the SPD.  I think there's a pattern with Hamtramck cars built around then, which is why I'm trying to find an engine block for my car with an assembly date so tight to the SPD.  Sorry for the hijack...

[nascarxx29]

Motor is 5-20 69 for a 606 build date car .Car in number #381 it was a unknown car to both clubs even as far as the79 records .Before I disclosed it.Dave Patik has seen and pointed out many unique details to me on it.Whats odd to me as it was shipped 8-30 69.And never lanqiushed at the dealership.And was sold 4-25-70  were it was ordered and shipped to

[hemigeno]

Dave, is that the casting date, or the assembly date stamped on the ID pad?  The 5/20 date seems more like what the casting date would be.  Just double-checking...

I've also learned a ton about the fine details of Daytonas from Mr. Patik - he's a treasure trove of information.

[nascarxx29]

casting date 5-20 -69 the Id pad had the inverted A for 0.20 overbore.Dave borrowed my original stamped fan belts .And copied the original heater hoses graphics .Showed me the original plug wires date H2-69.We had a headlight out it was date coded.And we went all over the car for reference original type details to record.And compare

[694spdRT]

So did Creative then put the door stickers on prior to shipping out...if they put a sticker on at all? That is the only way I can see a 9/69 date on it from what you guys are saying. They would have left the Chrysler plant long before that IMO.

[hemigeno]

casting date 5-20 -69 the Id pad had the inverted A for 0.20 overbore.Dave borrowed my original stamped fan belts .And copied the original heater hoses graphics .Showed me the original plug wires date H2-69.We had a headlight out it was date coded.And we went all over the car for reference original type details to record.And compare

Do you remember or can you confirm what the assembly date was on the ID pad?  Lower left corner, to the left of where it says "HP"?

Those plug wires are almost irreplaceable.  The reproduction '69 plug wires are made with Q1 and Q3 dates only, so a car built in May/June (such as yours and mine) is left with no choice but to use Q1 dated wires.  I have only heard of one guy with an NOS set of Q2-69 plug wires, and he (understandably) wasn't interested in selling.

I love studying the details on original cars.  There are still some significant untouched and undamaged areas on my car that give me a lot of reference material, but nothing like a complete car such as yours, Jim McCauley's, or Mr. Duellman's (except for the questionable color change) and others.  Lots of good stuff to see and take note of.

Ty & Chris, Mr. Duellman's car is shown as having been shipped out from Creative on September 3.  Could have been a tie-in to the ship date, I just haven't paid attention enough to that topic to say one way or another.

[69_500]

I was figuring sooner or later in this thread Dave would be posting a picture of his rear seat in his Daytona, and how it is missing the buttons.

I'm confused on the whole VIN sticker subject. Haven't had a Daytona of my own to study in depth. I don't know if there is any rhyme or reason for many things on the Daytona's and the VIN stickers certainly fit in the categorie of no set rules.

[nascarxx29]

My car was built on a fri one side of seat never had buttons .And a few more factorys slip ups

[nascarxx29]

Some neat details was the primer line under the backside of the hood.and very little paint under battery tray.The other stuff was poor workmanship due to lack of quailty control .No holes holding the retainer for the headlight vacuum hoses.On the original numbered rad support.Nicks from a drill bit on window frames while attaching a pillars.Screws in windshield gasket showing from a pillars.Along with finger prints from smoothing the caulk hiding those screws.Overspray on nose seals and poorly masked and taped out black out tail light area .Headlight doors are engraved with SAE-XX29

[nascarxx29]

 Nov 91 GG paint break down A4 silver #2 B3 lt blue #2 B5 Bright Blue #23 B7 Med Blue #2 F3 Med green #2 F5 Med Green #1 F6 Bright Green #43 F8 dark green #10 Q5 Torquoise #2 R4 bright Red #75 R6 Red#6 T3 Lt Bronze#2 (T7 dark Bronze #1)V2 hemi Orange #72 W1 Egg shell White #9 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[X9 Black#9]]]]]]]]]]]] Y2 Cream Yellow #24 Y3 Cream #0 Y4 Light Gold #2 #99 special order paint #1 #306 total colors known daytonas

As it has 304 mile car and its a 1 of 9  X9 black daytona  And a 4 speed.It shouldnt be around long

[hemigeno]

As it has 304 mile car and its a 1 of 9  X9 black daytona  And a 4 speed.It shouldnt be around long

At $675,000 ??  If it sells quickly then the market for Daytonas has taken another huge leap higher IMHO.

I was reading again last night about the Black/white/white 4-speed HemiDaytona that sold for +/- $250k not all that long ago.  Wouldn't that be a bargain today?

[nascarxx29]

 What ever became of the left over never sold Dressler motors daytona from VA

[69_500]

Gene are you refering to the HEMI Daytona that went over to England? If so then yes it is a bargain in todays dollars, but at the time it was a big price to pay for even a HEMI Daytona even if it was Black.

[hemigeno]

Gene are you refering to the HEMI Daytona that went over to England? If so then yes it is a bargain in todays dollars, but at the time it was a big price to pay for even a HEMI Daytona even if it was Black.

Yes, that's the one, and I know it was considered a lot for a car back then.  Here's the link to the article I was reading for the umpteenth time:

http://wwnboa.com/mmfr.htm

If 440 Daytonas are indeed selling for almost 3 times what a HemiDaytona was selling for just 5 years ago, saying the market has gone up is a huge understatement.  Granted, Mr. Duellman's car is very low mileage, but it is not its original color and the "wrong" color paint job has been re-painted once already.

Just my observation anyway...

[nascarxx29]

The hemi black daytona went to Monteverdi in England.I believe it was one of  Radkes old cars

[65post]

Is this the one?

[69_500]

I would say yes, but without being able to see the rest of the car I can't say for certain. However it wasa black HEMI Daytona 4 speed with a white wing.

[BigBlockSam]

looks like my wing car

[Brock Samson]

 question:.


What is the speaker lookin thingee on the dash in this pic?.... 


**Inactive Link Removed**

thanks in advance.

[nascarxx29]

 R22 Am 8 track cars get dash mounted speakers.

[hemi68charger]

R22 Am 8 track cars get dash mounted speakers.

Agree,, the R22's get the standard middle one and two outer ones........

Troy

[Brock Samson]

i didn't know that..