Introduction & buying advice

[DAmatt]

Hello from across the pond in Europe!
My name is Matt, I'm kinda young (27), at the beginning of my career as a prosecuting magistrate - I think it's DA in the US, right? I do, however, and always have loved classic, minimalist designs, and somehow the '68-'70 Charger ticks all the right boxes in what I wish from a car - except safety & perhaps mpg - and I think a black r/t would be kind of suited to my profession, don't you think? I currently have an '05 Jag Super V8, which I've had for 7 years, and which is a great automobile - looks extremely classy, however it also does the quarter in 13.7 @ 105 (no lsd, 235 tires), the lines are from 40 years ago, however on the inside everything's modern. But I feel it's time to part ways, and get from something that I am really fond of to something I could really love.
I admit, I am very scared about safety when thinking of the Charger, comparing it with the Jag. 2 point seat belts, manual drums, non-collapsible steering column... not even mentioning the lack of stability control or even abs. how safe do you feel behind the wheel of your Charger? I must point out that 99% of driving here is on single lane carriageways twisting up and down hilly & mountainous terrain - no straight, 100 lane highways here. How fast do the drum brakes fade when e.g. descending a mountain side? Is there a particular strategy like stopping every 10mins to let them cool down?

Sorry, I've hit Enter at this point

Having said my woes about safety, the thought of a black on black r/t shining at sunset makes me overlook those insignificant details about death or serious injury bla bla, and I am as of last month actively searching for a 440, '68 through '70. Been looking at mobile.de & autoscout24.de, found a few Chargers, but I wonder if I wouldn't have a broader search area if I include the US also. Taxes are killing me, but still, there may be deals out there. I am looking for ideally a #s matching r/t with the 3spd auto (almost everything that I find in America is 4spd, is it really that hard to find an automatic in the US? Who would have thought:) ), or if it is a 4spd, how hard would it be to convert to an automatic?

I've read, and heard prices starting from low 20s to high 60s for a non-hemi r/t, could somebody please clarify how much would a numbers matching r/t in good shape would cost me in the US? It need not be in concours condition, but it musn't be a rust bucket either. Could you point me to where to look online for a Charger in the US? Besides ebay.com
If there are other things you feel I would need to be aware of, please do share your thoughts.
PS: if a non-matching r/t comes at a nice price, it would also be considered, just that the engine & gearbox need to be from '68 to '70.
Regards,
Matt

[Marck]

Welcome aboard.. 

Check www.cars-on-Line.com

There are many ways to improve the handling and braking ability of a Charger.. My Charger stops as good as any modern car, I've converted it to discs front and rear, several companies make bolt on kits.. Handling wise, I've upgraded the torsion bars, swaybar and bushings.. Like day and night from before I started upgrading it..

The chance of finding just the right Charger in Europe is slim, I looked for quite a while, and ended up finding one in the US..

-Marck

[Fred]

Hello and welcome.  

The first thing I'd do is change the drum brakes.

[69rtse4spd]

Welcome from the colonies.

[70 sublime]

Maybe a better question is what is your budget for such a car and in  your driveway ??

[twodko]

Hello Matt and welcome! The knowledge base here is vast and a great bunch of gear heads. Your chosen career will absolutely demand some form of elixir to smooth the edges.

Marck mentioned easy modifications to make these cars as responsive as a modern car the same size. Just remember what your buying. A beauty 69 Charger is a fantastic car to own and drive but its vastly different than your Jag. The expectations have to be different.

You will find the right car just be patient. All the knowledge you need to buy your Charger in right here in the membership. Ask questions.....there are no stupid ones. You've taken on a spendy hobby but the sound of your own 440 is worth it. Good luck.

[Mike DC]

     

--  By the way, the steering column on a '68-70 Charger is built to collapse.  In two places, actually.  The US government mandated that feature in about 1967.  It collapses between the steering gearbox and the firewall to deal with the car frame crumpling in a wreck.  It can also collapse between the firewall and the steering wheel if a passenger gets thrown forward and hits the steering wheel (this was more common back when few people wore seatbelts.)


The 1960s brakes aren't great but they can be upgraded without too much trouble.  It is a popular change to make on these cars now. 

The seatbelts are the same story - there are aftermarket companies offering kits to put modern 3-point seatbelts into old Chargers.  The factory originally built the cars with mounting bolts for 3-pt belts even though not everyone used them back in the day.   

[DAmatt]

Thanks for the replies, guys!
I've looked into what you've said, my worries went down a bit. It's a relief I can mount 3 point seatbelts, however that's as far as I want to go. If I get a numbers matching car, I really don't want to modify anything. That's why I asked if one could use the car with original manual drum brakes without getting killed.
Nice cars here are viewed as the devil, so for a 7,2 liter Charger, I'd have to pay around $5000 as first registration tax, then $3000 every year just for the privilege of owning it. Keep in mind that minimum wage here is $250 / month, or ~$3000 / year. Oh, and gas is $8/gallon, so stop complaining about gas prices in America
A way to go around this is to register it as a historic vehicle, which means keeping it as original as possible. So no upgrading the suspension/brakes etc.

70 sublime, to answer your question, my budget for this undertaking is $50.000 max, that's for the car, shipping, and import taxes. Is it realistic to find a '68 or '69 440 car in good shape to use regularly for around $30-35k? If not #s matching, at least with correct period drivetrain + trim. That would be great, as it gives me a comfort zone, financially speaking.

I am a bit frustrated, because I keep reading posts about acquiring an r/t in decent shape for like $25-35k, but whenever I try to find something online,prices start from $40k and hit the stratosphere. I want something that wont break down at first opportunity, looks in decent shape and doesn't require something fixed every week. I made an image of the Charger as a simple, reliable car that, with care, can stand by you on the long run without being fickle as classic European exotica. Are my expectations realistic, or was I misinformed?

Speaking of expectations, in no way do I have the same demands as from a modern car. I know, accept and welcome the fact that a car from 45 years ago behaves differently; I'm not shooting for 0-60 times, 2.0 G cornering or 20ft 60-0 stopping distance; Of course I want that once-in-a-while punch when you hit the throttle, but that's more for the pleasure of driving than for on-paper bragging rights. I only wish to know how safe I am in this car when driving safely. If all goes well, I plan to do a grand tour of Europe this summer, as XVIIIth century nobility used to do, that means thousands of miles of highway / single lane road, is a car this old up to the task? Have any of you taken your Charger on long road trips to know whether the car is ok with this?

And one more thing, is there anyone from Europe that has bought his/her car from the US? Any details on the procedure/cost?

[Dino]

Matt, my car is an R/T clone so it has the entire drivetrain, suspension and brakes as an R/T would have.  I have power drum brakes and once they were dialed in, the car stops very nice.  At high speeds the brakes are not so good simply because of the weight of the car, it's a lot of car you're trying to stop.  That said I drive my car to work all the time and have no problem in city or highway traffic at all.  The 440's have plenty power to have a lot of fun and break a law or two while you're at it.  I used to live in Belgium and had a '68 with 383 that ran on lpg only and apart from having to change the waterpump I never had a single issue with that car in the 5 years I drove it.

One of the things to consider is the gear ratios, the Charger's are 3 speed auto or 4 speed manual and if you have 3:55 or lower in the axle then you'll be doing high rpm's on the freeway.  I changed my gears to 2:94 just to have a lower rpm cruise but I also run the original 14" wheels so it would help my case to stick bigger wheels under there.

Charger's are very reliable once setup right but as with any old car you have to keep them running.  I wouldn't hesitate to drive my Charger across country as it sits right now. 

Taxes in Europe are going to be high, shipping is going to set you back anywhere from $1500 upwards, depending on how you want it transported.  There's companies in Europe that specialize in doing this but expect to pay 3-4 grand for the whole process.

[Blusmbl]

I am a bit frustrated, because I keep reading posts about acquiring an r/t in decent shape for like $25-35k, but whenever I try to find something online,prices start from $40k and hit the stratosphere. I want something that wont break down at first opportunity, looks in decent shape and doesn't require something fixed every week. I made an image of the Charger as a simple, reliable car that, with care, can stand by you on the long run without being fickle as classic European exotica. Are my expectations realistic, or was I misinformed?

They are not going to be as finicky as an Italian or British automobile, but if you daily drive a classic car expect it to require significantly more maintenance than something modern.  On the plus side, they're cheaper to fix when they break. It isn't that the components are any less reliable... but what you're fighting is 40 year old parts.  Older stuff wears out and stops working.  If you rebuild one from the ground up it will be fine for years but your budget of 50k with shipping is a bit of a stretch for a car in that condition, if you have to have a real R/T. 40-45k gets you a decent R/T in that condition, but it isn't going to be perfect.

[Mopar Nut]

Welcome aboard.

[duanesterrr]

Welcome to the site and good luck with your search.  Here is a car I saw on Craigslist the other day that peaked my interest.  Note: I have not called about it and know nothing past what is said on the add.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/3530483037.html

[Mike DC]

       
I agree with what has been said about "needing more maintenance than a modern car."  That is definitely true.

Look at it in simple terms - if you buy a brand new 2013 car today, and drive it regularly . . .  it will start showing wear & tear in only a few years.  My point is that just because an old car has been restored, that does not shield it from the effects of wear & tear forever after that.  Also, old cars wear out A LOT quicker than modern ones just because of their cheaper design.   If you drive an old car on a regular basis then you will be spending money to maintain it.  And even if you take care of it, you cannot expect to put 50,000 miles on it without having to do some re-restoring work.

Another thing to be aware of - the reproduction parts industry tends to focus on making parts look perfect rather than be long-lasting.  The consequence is that some of the replacement parts are really not made to be used very much before the wear will show.  (particularly interior parts.)   The pieces won't necessarily FAIL quickly, but they will lose the perfect brand new look quickly. 

[70 sublime]

70 sublime, to answer your question, my budget for this undertaking is $50.000 max, that's for the car, shipping, and import taxes. Is it realistic to find a '68 or '69 440 car in good shape to use regularly for around $30-35k? If not #s matching, at least with correct period drivetrain + trim. That would be great, as it gives me a comfort zone, financially speaking.

You should be able to find something in that price range but it will come down to being able to act on it when the opportunity presents itself (as in first come first served)
You will have to figure out how to get it home first and from where and then start really looking
There are lots of eyes on this site that see things pop up in their area that you might not come across if you put the word out

[tan top]

 Hello & welcome Matt    

like all what the guys have mentioned above  

, i can see what your saying Matt !
safety features with the modern cars !! , all true  , but cars never had all that stuff , & even up & till the late 80s , some models never had half the stuff the cars are built with now , these chargers  wont forgive poor driving & car control at any speed  , like modern cars do when you loose control , by maxing out the suspension , tires , driver skill with modern cars ,    your all ready going fast in a modern car , & its too late &  end up in a tree or  up side down in a field  or both or worse, obviously ( unless your a complete idiot & you will wreck at any speed   ) , in a charger  your be going much slower  when you feel the car getting away from you , & feel its limitations & what the car is doing , ( again unless your a idiot )    there is loads of variables to what i mentioned & dont think i'm making a good job of explaining   normally happens  , no offence meant to to any by saying this next sentence if your a poor driver with no driving ability , getting a feel of the car & what its about to do, under all sorts of conditions , situations  speeds ,   your still wreck no matter how slow your going .
your use to driving a rear wheel drive Matt car going by the Jag you have , but some one who has grown up with front wheel drive , & all the modern driver aids  ( again no office ment to anyone out there  ) ,  gets straight in a rear wheel drive muscle car or any rear wheel drive car with a live rear axle & a bit a power  , going to get a shock , even dry roads !!


   got manual drums on mine , & i'm not going to lie , try to keep up with modern traffic on todays packed roads & some situations , your either crazy or stupid  ,  got to forget all about how modern cars brake under given situations , at least if you have manual drums ( even power drums all your do is
lock up & slide quicker ) with  control loss under emergance braking conditions .
one side or the other under braking due to camber in the road surface , dips  ,& suspension unloading etc, the rear left or right or both will lock up first sometimes   , under a emergency stop  even when every thing is rebuilt in A1 condition ,  then factor in the feel of steering input !!  at last with the stock power steeing set up faster you go the lighter is feels ,

[Mike DC]

To understand the difference in the feel of these old cars compared to a modern one, think about roller coasters at an amusement park. 





The tracks can be made of either wood or steel.  Wood was the original material generations ago and then steel came into popularity.  Steel can be made to go much faster.  It rides smoother.  It can do higher G-forces.  It can do upside-down moves that wood cannot.  But they still make some high-quality wooden coasters these days anyway . . . why?

The reason is because you FEEL IT so much more when you ride in the wooden coasters.  The vibration, the flexing of the whole track around a corner, etc.  A wooden coaster can give you more feeling of speed from a slower ride with lighter G-forces.  Certainly not all wooden coasters are as much fun as a steel one, but I'm saying it's possible.  I'm saying it's notable that the advent of steel coasters has not stopped people from continuing to build some high-quality fast wooden ones too.   


An old muscle car is like the wooden coaster.   It doesn't go as fast & corner as hard as most modern sporty cars.  But in the old Charger you will feel the whole experience a lot more because you are not isolated from all the sensory input like a modern car.  The body shake, the vibration, the need to actually pay attention to the steering just to keep it pointed in a lane, etc. 

[Dino]

You guys need to go fix your cars 

It's all true, you won't think for a second that you're driving a new car but damn guys, I don't have any issues stopping, turning or keeping the car straight.  The one time doing 120 then I could feel the nose getting a bit lighter and of course the over assisted steering doesn't help either but that's not normal driving either.  I guess I was lucky to find a charger that was taken care of.  I have no problems at all being in city or highway traffic at any speed really.  I'm just as relaxed in my old jalopy than I am in my daily...just with a bigger smile.   

This may have been mentioned but be aware that the first few months things may break, I had a few small things going on that needed attention just because the car had sat for a while and I started driving the pants off of it from day one.
Don't let it discourage you, look at it as an oppertunity to fix those minor issues once and for all.

[tan top]

   True  Dino    

all this is not to put you off  Matt , ,
just realise they are very different &  driven sensibly & knowing their limitations  your be ok , in a nut shell first drive  dont  get in , nail the gas / foot in the water pump !!   & expect it to stop in anywhere near 100 feet   at the end of second to third   shift at wide open throttle    with stock OEM brakes
just needs getting use to  

[Chargen69]

my 69 with the stock 4 piston disk brakes up front stops quick and doesnt at all make me nervous, the old 69 I used to have with drums up front, well that was a different story, never knew which way she was going to go

[Dino]

Strange, I have a brake disc kit ready to go on but haven't found the urge to do so since the car stops so well.  I must have one of those cars not built on a Monday or Friday...

[Chargen69]

oh my word, i have the monday car, we have found SO many things wrong with it...  the least of which was a right side upper control arm on the left side.  maybe that's why mine was a lo mile car, nobody could ever align it 

[Dino]

oh my word, i have the monday car, we have found SO many things wrong with it...  the least of which was a right side upper control arm on the left side.  maybe that's why mine was a lo mile car, nobody could ever align it 

Damn!!!

[1974dodgecharger]

Holy sheit mike you explained it very well... 

I think I once asked, 'why do old cars 'feel' faster, but they are not compared to modern cars. well this essentially explains it.

To understand the difference in the feel of these old cars compared to a modern one, think about roller coasters at an amusement park. 





The tracks can be made of either wood or steel.  Wood was the original material generations ago and then steel came into popularity.  Steel can be made to go much faster.  It rides smoother.  It can do higher G-forces.  It can do upside-down moves that wood cannot.  But they still make some high-quality wooden coasters these days anyway . . . why?

The reason is because you FEEL IT so much more when you ride in the wooden coasters.  The vibration, the flexing of the whole track around a corner, etc.  A wooden coaster can give you more feeling of speed from a slower ride with lighter G-forces.  Certainly not all wooden coasters are as much fun as a steel one, but I'm saying it's possible.  I'm saying it's notable that the advent of steel coasters has not stopped people from continuing to build some high-quality fast wooden ones too.   


An old muscle car is like the wooden coaster.   It doesn't go as fast & corner as hard as most modern sporty cars.  But in the old Charger you will feel the whole experience a lot more because you are not isolated from all the sensory input like a modern car.  The body shake, the vibration, the need to actually pay attention to the steering just to keep it pointed in a lane, etc. 

[DAmatt]

Thanks guys for the warm welcome, and the plethora of great tips! I couldn't access the forum, it says Sorry guest, you are banned from using this forum! Spammers" i am now writing from my phone, it's taking ages. Seems it's the only way I'm allowed in. Is there anybody here i can go to, to have this thing solved?
There are some encouraging replies regarding the reliability & safety of driving a car such as this, and I'm glad it's like this. I am a bit sorry I can't go deeper in detail, but writing this on my phone is nigh on impossible...
I need an opinion, guys: i found a matching #s '69 r/t, seller says mechanical ok, paint not so good, price 33.500 euros

http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/dodge-charger-r-t-matching-numbers-weinstadt/170744918.html?lang=de&pageNumber=2&action=eyeCatcher&__lp=3&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=price.consumerGrossEuro&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7700&makeModelVariant1.modelId=2&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariantExclusion1.searchInFreetext=false&maxFirstRegistrationDate=1970-12-31&negativeFeatures=EXPORT

i hope it's the correct link. Can you spot anything? To me it looks like a honest workhorse, not in "afraid to drive it it's so pristine" condition, but a straight body, and stout mechanicals. But what do I know, i'm new to this. What do you think? Do any of you know the seller, oldschoolcustoms.de? If so, what's your opinion about them?

sorry I didn't write in more detail, hope an admin or someone can help me solve my access problem. I bid you good evening, gentlemen

[JB400]

From what the pix show, it doesn't look like that bad of a car.  Only issue I see is some of the wiring.  It doesn't look to woopy.  I think I'd swap it out for something more better.  I wouldn't mind seeing some underneath shots.  It'd give a better idea of the condition of the frame rails and floor pans.  If you do check it out, you should check around the rear window for rust bubbles.


From what I see, looks decent.

[Homerr]

Looks like the trunk floor has been replaced (weld seam down the middle and trunk should be body color); valve cover breather missing; rear window trim looks slightly out of place; driver's door jamb is primer with hinge side black?

Looks like a good driver, with bits here and there to work on to make it correct if you wish.  Check it for rust in person.  Paint doesn't look great, but the photos are also not to sharp.

Two other Chargers and a Challenger in the background, the guy looks like he knows Mopars.