Rubber Vs. Poly suspension stuff?

[Brock Samson]

ok guys your help and experience please..
Which make is better and are there any others?..
Just Suspensions or PST?...
  Rubber or Poly bushing material?..

I'm getting different advice from different "experts".. 

I have a warmed up 440,.. and Super Stock springs on the back, I added the hemi T-bars in front and  don't mind a squeak or a stiff ride.
I like stiff. I dont like the jiggilys.. bouncing once is enuff for me.

[8WHEELER]

I run the Polly Graphite bushings on my cars. I was told they can squeak, but mine never has, and my
wife loves them on her 68 RT. She says its drives fantastic, so they can't be as bad as some say squeaking
to much. They have been on her car for 4yrs now no problems. I think they are PST, but they are all the same
pretty much.

Dan

[Chryco Psycho]

I use Energy Poly bushings they fti properly & haven`t squeeked in my customers cars

[4402tuff4u]

I'm not sure if it's standard with all poly suspension kits, but the kit that I bought from Performance Suspensions came with a special lubricant you apply to all the poly fittings. Perhaps this is a solution to all the "squeaking" comments users frequently claim. The instructions state many times to not forget to apply this lubricant to the fittings. Just from feel, the poly sure does seem more durable than the rubber.

[Shakey]

I've heard they usually only squek when it is cold outside.   

[BLAM]

Use Moog high density rubber in your front suspension, period!  Use poly bushings on front sway bars, rear springs, and rear spring shackles.  Use only graphite poly bushings and tap all the poly bushing housings with Zerk grease fittings.  You will save money and be very happy!!!

[Brock Samson]

 FYI: I'm posting this to give an additional opinion and to protect the innocent I'm keeping the author of this PM secret...

Hey Strat, Long time....  I was reading about your rubber or poly Q.

Moog High Density is the only thing to use up front... You don't road rally, you drive.. It will feel great and out last all other rubbers. The poly will beeeeeeeeat you to death. Not to mention your Charger.. It's good for your leaf springs as you want them to track straight with NO DIRECTIONAL GIVE... Polly is ok for sway bars too as the sway bar has a certain amount of give to it..

I sent this to you in an IM as I have been picked apart by people that have NO *&$*! CLUE what they are talking about on this very subject before. I just don't need it right now.. Just keep in mind that POLLY is what MOPAR used in the RALLY cars.. So does everyone else.. Not everyday, GET LAYED CARS...... Hahahaha..... 



Anyway, I hope I helped... Take care XXXXXXX

[4402tuff4u]

Kind of sad that the author of the IM feels that way. If anything, all members here have been pretty open minded and helpful in my opinion. It's all about experiences and opinions each member has had on that particular issue posted. You take it at face value and with the feedback you make your own determination on the matter. I personally have gain so much knowledge from this forum that it has made the restoration of my Charger easier and more enjoyable. In allot of the issues posted, there is sometimes more than one answer to the matter. That's what makes this site so valuable........the different point of views.

[Duey]

Well, secrecy or not, the MOOG HD stuff is what I have...I'll let you know how it works out in a few months when I get back home.

Cheers,
Duey

[Shakey]

Well, secrecy or not, the MOOG HD stuff is what I have...I'll let you know how it works out in a few months when I get back home.

Cheers,
Duey

Call the old lady and ask her to take the car for a spin and give us a report.   

[Duey]

LOL

Actually, all that rubber is siting in the trunk waiting to get installed...that and all the new bits I got have to be installed (Pro-form carb, new ported heads, valave covers, headers, converter, rear-end, etc...) 

Duey

[firefighter3931]

Poly here as well....luv the firmness it produces. It would tend to agree with the "secret poster" that' it's probably not the best choice for a daily driver. I won't ever drive mine as a commuter vehicle so when it goes it i want it to perform like a champ, not a chump. 

These cars were never great handling vehicles to begin with but the poly suspension brings it closer to a modern car. The side affect is a stiffer ride but i can live with that....it is a Charger and nothing beats driving your ride ! 

[Brock Samson]

no way is my car a daily..

[is_it_EVER_done?]

As this boards most ardent Poly hater, I'll offer my opinion. I apologize for the length.

You state that you don't mind squeaks or a stiff ride. If that's what you are after, Poly bushings and a set of KYB shocks will certainly give it to you, however the harshness is caused by a transference of the road bumps/irregularities to the cars body/frame instead of having them absorbed by the suspension as intended. This is a suspension performance decrease, not an improvement.

It is certainly true that road race, autocross, and other race only cars can maximize handling with Poly or solid bushings, but in every case, they are running substantially reduced suspension travel, reduced ride height, very low profile tires, increased spring/torsion bar/sway bar rates, altered suspension geometry/alignment settings, and other modifications so that the suspension is optimized to work in only a small range of motion.

My opinion is that Poly is the answer to a question that nobody asked! First of all, Poly does not address any known problem, or fix any perceived shortcomings of the stock Mopar suspension. Instead, it tries to eliminate an essential element of elasticity that is necessitated by the laws of physics.

Rubber bushings are essential, and designed, to provide necessary elasticity in an infinite number of axis's. This is due to the requirements of the suspension to not only move/twist through a large range of motion, but do so while never being in equilibrium with other individual suspension components, as unequal component lengths are necessary to reduce squat under braking and rise under acceleration, provide frame and body protection from shock, provide gradual/exponential loading of the springs/torsion bars/shocks, and always return to their static state in the same gradual time frame. Poly does none of this. – Polly can best be equated to brakes that can only be locked up, or un-applied, with the entire essential "in between" eliminated!

Why does Poly squeak? Because it can't provide torsional flexibility (twist). This caused the manufacturer to impregnate it with Graphite to help reduce the squeak caused by its inability to provide essential torsional flexibility. Since even graphite can't defy physics, they started providing special lube to help it slide (remember, it can't twist). The problem with this is that the lube is not captive, and will eventually migrate out of the load areas, wash out, and allows it attract contaminants from the road (increasing wear). Not only that, but it can't absorb extreme shock, and will shatter under a heavy shock load (big pot hole).

Increasing the torsion and sway bar sizes, and "GOOD" shocks (Edelbrock, Koni, etc.) are the proper way to improve your suspension. Use Moog components with their offset upper control arm bushings (for increased positive caster). This will provide a "real" performance increase that you can feel and count on! Poly is the biggest con ever perpetrated on the auto enthusiast world. Ricer style decals, or an "oil company withheld" 100-MPG carburetor are better upgrades.

P.S. It has been said that the stock Mopar suspension is a poor design. NOTHING could be further from the truth! If you look at the late 60's/very early 70's Mopar NASCAR cars that were running 200 MPH (as fast or faster than todays cars), you will see suspension that is shockingly similar to yours! Besides torsion bars the size of tree trunks, fat shocks, and a few strengthening gussets, the suspension was basically stock. Mopar had the best suspension ever to be offered on a production car, and in all but the most extreme situations, still holds it's own today.

[Mike DC]

Just a couple of thoughts:

--  IMHO, I agree that poly is sometimes used in situations where stiffer rubber would have been better.  The OEMs are paying a lot of attention to the durometer of their various bushings these days.

--  For the rear end of the car, I've heard of people running rubber bushings in the front spring eyes but using poly ones in the rear spring shackles.  So the poly is taking out more slop at the long end of the spring, and the rubber is still doing some cushioning from bumps when the car is rolling forwards.  This is said to be a decent compromise between the two bushing types.

.

[Shakey]

As this boards most ardent Poly hater, I'll offer my opinion. I apologize for the length.

You state that you don't mind squeaks or a stiff ride. If that's what you are after, Poly bushings and a set of KYB shocks will certainly give it to you, however the harshness is caused by a transference of the road bumps/irregularities to the cars body/frame instead of having them absorbed by the suspension as intended. This is a suspension performance decrease, not an improvement.

It is certainly true that road race, autocross, and other race only cars can maximize handling with Poly or solid bushings, but in every case, they are running substantially reduced suspension travel, reduced ride height, very low profile tires, increased spring/torsion bar/sway bar rates, altered suspension geometry/alignment settings, and other modifications so that the suspension is optimized to work in only a small range of motion.

My opinion is that Poly is the answer to a question that nobody asked! First of all, Poly does not address any known problem, or fix any perceived shortcomings of the stock Mopar suspension. Instead, it tries to eliminate an essential element of elasticity that is necessitated by the laws of physics.

Rubber bushings are essential, and designed, to provide necessary elasticity in an infinite number of axis's. This is due to the requirements of the suspension to not only move/twist through a large range of motion, but do so while never being in equilibrium with other individual suspension components, as unequal component lengths are necessary to reduce squat under braking and rise under acceleration, provide frame and body protection from shock, provide gradual/exponential loading of the springs/torsion bars/shocks, and always return to their static state in the same gradual time frame. Poly does none of this. – Polly can best be equated to brakes that can only be locked up, or un-applied, with the entire essential "in between" eliminated!

Why does Poly squeak? Because it can't provide torsional flexibility (twist). This caused the manufacturer to impregnate it with Graphite to help reduce the squeak caused by its inability to provide essential torsional flexibility. Since even graphite can't defy physics, they started providing special lube to help it slide (remember, it can't twist). The problem with this is that the lube is not captive, and will eventually migrate out of the load areas, wash out, and allows it attract contaminants from the road (increasing wear). Not only that, but it can't absorb extreme shock, and will shatter under a heavy shock load (big pot hole).

Increasing the torsion and sway bar sizes, and "GOOD" shocks (Edelbrock, Koni, etc.) are the proper way to improve your suspension. Use Moog components with their offset upper control arm bushings (for increased positive caster). This will provide a "real" performance increase that you can feel and count on! Poly is the biggest con ever perpetrated on the auto enthusiast world. Ricer style decals, or an "oil company withheld" 100-MPG carburetor are better upgrades.

P.S. It has been said that the stock Mopar suspension is a poor design. NOTHING could be further from the truth! If you look at the late 60's/very early 70's Mopar NASCAR cars that were running 200 MPH (as fast or faster than todays cars), you will see suspension that is shockingly similar to yours! Besides torsion bars the size of tree trunks, fat shocks, and a few strengthening gussets, the suspension was basically stock. Mopar had the best suspension ever to be offered on a production car, and in all but the most extreme situations, still holds it's own today.

You have answered all of the questions I have ever thought of and some I hadn't thought of and some that I probably couldn't even put into words.

Thanks & well done.   

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Just a couple of thoughts:

--  IMHO, I agree that Poly is sometimes used in situations where stiffer rubber would have been better.  The OEMs are paying a lot of attention to the durometer of their various bushings these days.

--  For the rear end of the car, I've heard of people running rubber bushings in the front spring eyes but using Poly ones in the rear spring shackles.  So the Poly is taking out more slop at the long end of the spring, and the rubber is still doing some cushioning from bumps when the car is rolling forwards.  This is said to be a decent compromise between the two bushing types.

Though this may sound like a reversal of what I previously stated, it really isn't. Believe it or not, I edited out over half of what I said before, in order to not go into two pages.

--------------------------------------

I totally agree with you that specific and adjusted durometer values of rubber is the absolute ideal, but since that will never exist, the possible use of Poly components, in addition to rubber for a performance increase can be achieved. I don't just hate Poly because it exists, I HAVE used it (and removed it) a couple of times! However, I have found that Poly strut rod bushings (on the front of the rods only) provide an improvement that can be felt (due, I believe, to better controll of caster fluctuations, and caster increases due to the rubber rear bushings being forced to compress). I also agree that Poly rear spring bushings can help make the suspension "work" better by reducing sideways flex, but will also require periodical disassembly for lubrication. I have also had decent results experimenting with Poly bushings for the link rods of sway bars (not the horizontal "K frame" mounting bushings), and have found that adjustable shocks can be set one or two clicks lower if Poly is used in the mount bushings.

My statements were more of a general nature, and for the "average enthusiast", All rubber is not only better, but will eliminate a performance decrease from an "across the board" replacement of rubber with Poly. It all depends on your intended use. A strip only car Will be best with all rubber, smaller torsion bars, loose shocks, and no sway bars, whereas an autocrosser "MAY" be better with the absolute reverse of that.

The best compromise is all rubber (good Moog stuff). Certain Polly components can offer an improvement, but ALL Polly WILL be a reduction in handling and performance, (not to mention a dramatic decrease in longevity).

Well thought out experementation is always recommended (at least by me), but if I was going to put my family into an old car, I wouldn't use any Poly.

[Brock Samson]

I've gone with the Moog HD Offset stuff as I.I.E.D? recommended,    The steering box needed to be tighened up too,.. should have it on the road today for a test    !

THANKS!  I LEARNED A BUNCH! 

[71charger_fan]

Opinions are like... well, you know the rest.

I put in poly almost ten years ago. I like the feel of the car, the ride of the car, and have no issues with squeaks. I like the fact that the poly is impervious, at least relative to rubber, to ozone breakdown. For my car, I'd never consider putting rubber bushings in again. I just wish I wasn't too lazy to pull the leaf springs and change those too. Although, for the record, I did upgrade the shocks and install heavier torsion bars when I had the suspension apart.

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Opinions are like... well, you know the rest.

I put in poly almost ten years ago. I like the feel of the car, the ride of the car, and have no issues with squeaks. I like the fact that the poly is impervious, at least relative to rubber, to ozone breakdown. For my car, I'd never consider putting rubber bushings in again. I just wish I wasn't too lazy to pull the leaf springs and change those too. Although, for the record, I did upgrade the shocks and install heavier torsion bars when I had the suspension apart.

It's OK, you can say it (this isn't moparts), nor does it offend me in any way. However, my "opinion" is that I don't like poly. My explanation of why rubber is used and not other material, and what each material can, and cannot do is fact.

I just want to point out that you installed heavier torsion bars, and upgraded shocks, yet you attribute your increased enjoyment of the feel of your car to the installation of poly. It is my belief that had you used rubber (moog) instead, particularly if you had used their offset upper bushings for increased positive caster, you would like the "feel" as much or more with the upgrades you did, but with no A-B tests to go by, you state that you would "never consider putting rubber bushings in again". Thats fine, but it really doesn't address the "which is better" discussion.

As for 10 years of no squeak use from your poly install, I assume that this has to be with very low use (milage), as it's hard to get 10 years of use out of ball joints, or U joints (each of which have captive lubrication), if the car is driven on a regular basis . Again I must point out that poly HAS to slide, wherein rubber twists. The sliding creates wear points as the lubrications diminished, instead of rubbers ability to dissapate motion through heat due to it's ability to twist. Personally, I have never been able to get a fraction of that time/wear out of a "non lubrication captive" moving item. It would be like never lubing your disk brake calipers. They may still work, but nowhere near optimum or even within design parameters. -- For the record, I do put much more than 10,000 miles each per year on my cars, so certain thing show up that may never be a factor for others.

In regards to Ozone breakdown of rubber vs poly, I'll take you word for it as it is nothing I have ever even thought about nor tested. That part aside, I would still recommend rubber for the best performance, even if it does brake down through Ozone sooner than poly, as poly will wear out, or shatter long before it ever becomes an issue. This is not an opinion, but a guarantee.

[Brock Samson]

 O.K.
  Well, It seems now after driving,..  the rear seems abit too stiff for my liking, it hooks up fine from a dead stop because i guess thats what S.S. Springs do,.. but I feel like if i put one of those little chiwaawaa dogs in the back window,.. the ones with the bouncing heads?.. It'd would beat it's self to death!.. Prolly 'cause now the front has some compliance and the rear doesn't.. Funny cause i was used to the SS Springs with my previous front bushings' PST poly stuff. Now the front also seems to tramline a bit too,.. which is to say it's riding invisible irregularities in the road (at Speed) and hitting imperfections (pot holes etc.) make it kinda hop sideways.. (perhaps the rear is getting off traction and comming down abit off to the side?) the  steering box seems to need a tick more tighening too...  But hammer down it still chirps the tires at approx. 55 MPH, Now That part I like!  It worries me though, because I'm afraid the combo of factors might snap the car sideways.. 
  As Re: the Carb. Holly 770 Street Avenger on a Weiland Stealth, the plugs were white so I added fuel.. (more tweaking to come)..

  Has anyone got any thoughts?.. I've never had (so) many folks to bounce this stuff off of before,  cause I haven't messed with (Tuned) the car other then oil changes since '99..

[firefighter3931]

Hey Strat, what kind of bushings are you running in the rear spring eyes/shackles. What you're describing sounds typical for a loose front end/tight rear end chassis combination. SS springs ride hard and even harsher with a looser front end....at least that's been my experience. If you're running poly bushings out back....possibly a change to rubber would soften it up a bit. Or you might need to back to an XHD 440/hemi spring.

Ron

[Brock Samson]

  yeah the rears are poly,..    way too stiff with the Moog front end rubber,.. so my thought is while the front is now forgiving the rear is now harsh in comparo. which accounts for the rear "stepping out". Squirrly and unsafe... 


I'd really appreciate hearing about your experiance with Dual Purpose cars guys, street and strip with and without the S.S. Springs... 

I only expected to do a front end alignment, then the steeing gear was sloppy as i was able to turn the front tires about two inches side to side without the steering wheel budging while up on the rack...

... and now a switch to front end rubber makes the rear ride like an unladen flatbed... 

As i wasn't unhappy with the freeway ride before, so maybe?.. I should switch back to the poly in front?.. as the rear don't need referbishment...

 

[BLAM]

Personally I believe the rear end bounce has less to do with the poly bushings and more to do with the new S.S springs!  I would never run S.S. springs in anything but a pure race car period!

If you do put new poly up front I think you will find both ends of the car ride like an unloaded flatbed truck!!

I think you have the perfect set up accept for the S.S. springs.  The springs should be the be HD ones.

[Brock Samson]

 When i (Finally) got the BB drivetrain in the car with the S.S. springs, the massive torque avail at low Revs.  (2,300) simply spun the back tires for the first two or three seconds under any kind of accleration short of lightly feathering the go pedal..

So,..  I went to more agressive tires front and back, uprading the rears to the widest and tallest (28 inchers) to give more gear ...in anycase, the taller, wider tires and the new tighter quicker 727 tranny with a shift kit did wonders for increasing traction, so I was not unhappy with the S.S. Springs... Till now,.. So i guess my question is...
   What differences might i expect with the H.D. springs and rubber bushings in the rear?..
Sure it's gonna be softer, but will the rears still hook up from a dead stop?. & will i have a return of the dreaded bobble?... 

update:
It's raining here and  predicted to rain for the next two weeks!   

[71charger_fan]

"Rubber bushings are essential, and designed, to provide necessary elasticity in an infinite number of axis's. This is due to the requirements of the suspension to not only move/twist through a large range of motion"

I'm sorry but I have to say I don't buy this. Rubber is not essential; some sort of material capable of absorbing vibration and maintaining the suspension components very close to their engineered axes through their range of motion is essential. You seem to have argued against yourself saying race and rally teams use poly for better handling yet, through some miracle of vehicle physics, poly makes a street car handle worse? Granted, poly will transmit more vibration into the unibody. I don't find it to be harsh. Will it wear out early compared to rubber? Perhaps. But, with the limited mileage I put on mine I believe the rubber would rot long before poly would wear out.

Wouldn't optimum handling come from mounting the upper and lower control arms in lubricated bronze bushings? That way everything would remain in its designed geometry. Except, of course, it would beat you to death. Poly minimizes front end geometry changes through the range of suspension travel because it does not flex as much as rubber. Am I wrong in thinking your argument is saying that having your control arms squirming around is a good thing. I don't believe you want your suspension moving through an infinite number of axes. Ideally, you want each control arm to pivot on one axis.

Poly provides some give, rubber provides a little more. Is one better than the other? Yes. I suppose each is better than the other depending on what you want. I'll stick with the poly for the tighter handling but I can understand why many people choose rubber for less vibration and a smoother ride. The only poly bushing I ever installed that gave me a noticeable increase in vibration was the transmission mount bushing. That one I wish I'd left rubber.

[Brock Samson]

BTW: Terrible One tells me the S.S. springs are supposed to crank the car to one side,.. Is that right?.. they don't on mine..

I'm enjoying the debate and wondering if maybe i shouldn't go back to all blubber.. err,.. rubber with the heavy duties since i spend far more time on the Road then the Track,.. where i'd like more "comfort" is when bombing down HWY 1 to Santa Cruz and back at off peak hours...
Do you have any idea just how much how fun that is!?..   

[BLAM]

Love your R/T!

I wouldn't call it a debate, these are just opinions based on pesonal preferences.  Poly gives you a tight suspension at the cost of a smooth ride.  Rubber gives you smooth ride at the cost of a soft suspension.  That is not to say poly results in an unbearable ride or that rubber results in car all over the road!  Not at all, it is just a choice of personal preference.

As I stated before I prefer a middle of the road solution which is a combination of rubber and poly.  I put poly on the rear springs / shackles and all sway bars.  Moog goes on all else in the system.  I like poly on the rear end because the loads are applied from the axel through the springs which is a large moment arm resulting in huge loads which will deform the rubber bushings in at least two axis.  I like the rear to track true!  Poly goes on the front sway bar because I want the effects of the sway bar to be imparted on the LCA immediately upon entering a turn.  Not after all the rubber bushings compress first.  In the front the bushings on the LCA and struts are essentially in a single axis so rubber is OK in my opinion and do a lot to smooth the ride!  Upper control arm bushings are lightly loaded really doesn't matter what you put there, but rubber is a little cheaper.

I think HD springs are the way to go if you can sell you S.S. to a racer.  i would keep the poly bushings in the rear though.

Yes I do know what you mean about the PCH!!!!  Fun! Fun! Fun!

[deputycrawford]

I don't know if my two cents will mean anything here but I run the .960 torsions, KYB shocks all around and the XD R/T springs in the rear. I run all rubber bushings and love the stiffness of the car and the ride quality. It soaks up the big bumps without rattling my teeth and pulls 1.84 60 ft times at the drag track. I have a 9 1/2 inch converter and a 4.10 gear in the 8 3/4. I truly believe I have the best of both worlds. Don't think twice about running the XD rear springs. They will surprise you.

[RT DAVE]

I run poly bushings in mine and don't notice the ride being rough.  I'm comparing this to my Intrepid, however, and not the charger with rubber bushings since I don't remember what that was like. 

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Stratocharger:  As you are discovering, they are called "SUPER STOCK" springs for a reason. They are one of the best upgrades and bargains ever created for drag racing/straight line acceleration situations, but they are terrible for any type of handling other than drag racing! You will find them to be very stable under full acceleration/rear weight transfer, but "scary" squirrelly in an "un-loaded", or front end loaded (braking) situation. The shocks will have a great deal of effect on minimizing/magnifying this, that's why good rear drag shocks will have so many adjustment possibilities.

Just for the record, keep in mind that in your original post you stated "you like stiff". That is not intended as a "jab" at all, just a general 'be careful what you ask for" type of observation.

71charger_fan:  To save space, and avoid extensive cutting and pasting from your last post, and my previous ones, please re-read my posts, and you will find that all but one of your questions were already answered, without any contradiction or argument against myself at all.

As for your question about whether optimum handling would be provided from solid bushings, Inferring that this was meant with stock suspension, the best way I can explain this is to request that you go look at the suspension on your car. If you look down on the engine compartment side of your cars suspension, you will see that the torsion bar runs at a straight, 90 degree X – Y axis, but that the upper control arm angle is at a radically different axis at both X and Y than the pivot points of the lower control arm/torsion bar.

If you look at it from a side view you will see that they are different in that X – Y axis also. Notice also that the upper control arm rides on two separate pivot points that have about one inch of adjustable differential from one another (for alignment purposes) which requires even their single axis to become "multi dimensional". Plus the fact that the strut rod causes every component (except the torsion bar) to move in a semi circular motion in addition to their (off axis) up and down motion, and it becomes apparent that if the bushings were steel (or some other solid material, the suspension could not move at all.

This unequal motion of the suspension is meticulously engineered in. Poly tries to minimize the (essential) "infinite axis" motion of the suspension, and poorly mimics the results of increased torsion/sway bar diameters, and increased shock performance. All this while causing undue stress on the suspension mounting points/components, and bushings themselves, while providing no gradual loading of the major suspension components. 

If the reduced flexibility properties of Poly had any benefit, tires would be made out of it instead of rubber, but the infinite flexibility of rubber is as essential for performance in tires as it is in suspensions. Just watch a wrinkle wall slick flex if you have any doubts.

As good as the stock Mopar suspension is, it does suffer from required – designed in – limitations. This is due primarily to the fact that it had to be a compromise between low effort manual steering (standard on most cars/models), and self-centering directional stability that could only be maximized with power steering. Fortunately Chrysler and Moog (Moog being the OEM supplier to Chrysler) designed the offset upper control arm bushings that are capable of solving a myriad of problems. The best of which is being able to offer a huge increase in positive caster (stability).

Poly can't offer this even if it's manufacturer wanted to, since the material is incapable of torsional flexibility, so it is stuck with the original designed in compromises unless you undertake a mechanical realignment of the stock suspension geometry.

If you prefer Polly, fine. However your (proper) upgrade of other suspension components, in my opinion, negates any attributable stated Poly benefits, but if you have A-B type comparisons, or other experience as to why/how Poly is better, I am more than willing to listen, as I learn something new about these cars every day.

One thing I would like you to consider, is that the "which is better, Poly or rubber" question is frequently asked across the internet. It wouldn't't be if the person asking the question had experience with each (regardless of which is actually "better"). It is my opinion that it would be a disservice to recommend Poly, as it is a product that can only be applied successfully through experimentation and other modifications, and can be potentially dangerous (as Stratocharger is finding out) when applied in the wrong situation. Would you not agree that suggesting rubber is not the safest, most probably pleasing result suggestion to those that ask? Even if (as I and you state) there are applications that Poly might be of benefit. - Overall, you can't go wrong with rubber.

[71charger_fan]

"requires even their single axis to become "multi dimensional". "

I'm sorry, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this, and other, points. Personally, I believe you have some misunderstandings on the function of the front suspension and you believe I do. I don't for a second believe the control arms are meant to move through infinite axes but are allowed to simply because there has to be some trade off between maximum handling and maximum comfort. Rubber and poly both provide this trade off at slightly different degrees. Poly limits the movements of the suspension components more than rubber which I believe is a good thing and you seem to believe is a bad thing. Rubber absorbs more vibration but, to me and many others, at the cost of degraded handling. So enjoy your rubber and I'll enjoy the poly. If it wears out sooner than rubber, fine, but, at only 1200 to 1400 miles per year that's going to take a while and I'll probably take  the whole thing apart again to paint it before it wears out and put new parts in then just as maintenance.

So you have a pleasant weekend and, if the weather is nice, enjoy your car. I plan to get mine out.

[Brock Samson]

 Hey Gents thanks for the advice:

We've had 25 days of rain out of the last 31, and I've been pretty busy so i've only got three days of driving/testing in.

the latest adjustment was lowering the tire pressures 5 Lbs.. and that had the obvious effect of lessening the squrrerly darting about and squeaking at any minor kind of steering inputs...

My Alt. went out, which it took me three days to correct cause these days i don't have the time anymore to mess around in the garage and at the shops...
but anyway...

I went out to Candlestick Parks' parking lot to conduct some launching and burnout testing and for fun...  I squared off besides my own burnout patches to measure the leangth of the rubber and made some objective comparisons throttle breaking, shifting at various RPMs etc. im gonna need a new right rear tire... From a dead stop the charger is an absolute hoot! i know i need a posi rear and lower gears, and torque boxes would help keep my glove box from flying open.. and now the R/T is a one trick pony unbeatable on the city streets...

...but all my Freeway excursions were scary waaaaay beyond what i'd deem an acceptable risk,.. 

I dont remember these wicked directional changes before... really a cause for concern...

so anyway it's been raining for three days now, and I'd still like to hear of anyones' experiance with different chassis setups..

right now i'm thinking i'd gladly sacrifice some stoplight to stoplight attitude stability.. to gain some freeway prowess...

Sorry if my terminoligy is incorrect...

I'm thinking now of swapping the S.S. springs for the H.D.s as suggested, and would like to hear other suggestions and ideas..
I'm wondering if i could get the lower stance of some of my favorite chargers on this site... cause mine's alittle high on it's haunches as it sits..

see below..


This is Charger1970s ride and a stance i used to have and prefer prior to my BB 440 and S.S. springs...



It seems to me just having the car lower, the tires more up in the wheewells and the center of gravity an inch or two lower would help the handleing and freeway stability.

your thoughts are most appreciated...
       

[AKcharger]

I used poly's on my wife's '72, really didn't notice a diffrence in ride and YES they do squeek and I lubed them. Installation was easy because they were stiff but I'd go back to rubber to get rid of squeeking, to me polys are not worth all the hype they get

AK

[Brock Samson]

i need to mention rereading this thread that the freeway stability improved a tremendous amout with new tires that i bought,..
no more squealing darting or tramlining... i guess it was an obvious fix... burnouts and normal wear will degrade a cars ride...

[Ghoste]

But burnouts are so worth it in the short term aren't they? 

[Mike DC]

 
Chargers do handle better when the front end is lowered. 
Lower center of gravity of course, but the lowered roll-center and increased negative camber probably does a lot of it too.

But these cars don't have a lot of wheel-travel left between ride height and bottoming out once the front end gets cranked down.

 

[Bandit4142]

First and foremost, I want to say that I appreciate the information and personal opinions in this thread.   I will be replacing all the bushings in my '69 within the next month, and that leads me to my question.   For me, my Charger is a "Daily-Driver" that my wife and I take to shows on the weekends.  I live in rural Colorado, so what this means is I drive 200+ miles round trip for a show.   I would also like to hear combinations for the ultimate "smooth" highway ride.   Track worthy handling isn't my goal, and hasn't been since I started this project, long distance traveling is.   Does anyone have a combination for a true highway cruiser?   

[RTPTRON]

First and foremost, I want to say that I appreciate the information and personal opinions in this thread.   I will be replacing all the bushings in my '69 within the next month, and that leads me to my question.   For me, my Charger is a "Daily-Driver" that my wife and I take to shows on the weekends.  I live in rural Colorado, so what this means is I drive 200+ miles round trip for a show.   I would also like to hear combinations for the ultimate "smooth" highway ride.   Track worthy handling isn't my goal, and hasn't been since I started this project, long distance traveling is.   Does anyone have a combination for a true highway cruiser?   

My 68 drives and handles pretty well for the primary suspension components to be 1968 technology.  I rebuilt the front end with rubber bushings except for the sway bars which are poly.  I installed Edlebrock IAS shocks and and rear end snubbed.  Installed new alloy wheels and TA redials.  It don't handle like a sports car but I can go around curves pretty well and I don't get a nose dive when I brake hard.

[8WHEELER]

Nice picture Ron I wonder who took it    Here, I made the color more correct.

Dan

[Ranger Max]

.

[RTPTRON]

Nice picture Ron I wonder who took it    Here, I made the color more correct.

Dan

8WHEELER took it!!!  Thanks DAN
Ron