recommendations to liven up the stock 440

[Lord Warlock]

Just wondering what people here would recommend for a moderate buildup of a stock 69 440 magnum motor.  Would be only for street use, maybe see a track once or twice total.  Best overall cam, hydraulic lifters or roller? intake, and possibly aftermarket aluminum heads.  I have a Edelbrock 750 vacuum sec carb w/electric choke, and plan on keeping the exhaust stock with stock manifolds, no headers.  When i drove the car in the 70s, I had ideas back then, but its been a looooong time since i thought about tuning the 440.  I was grateful to get it running again after a long hiatus.  Figure stock redline, power from 1500-5500rpm.  Would like to relive my youth but not go nutzoid on it.  And keeping the upgrades to a reasonable amount, maybe 3k to 4k if possible. Thats about what i spent on the body so far, and still have plenty of small trim to go.  (and bumpers).

After finishing the body, paint, top and interior, i'm now facing the prospect of pulling out much of the engine bay to clean, repaint and build the motor piece by piece.  I don't really plan on pulling the motor out, after doing that twice already i really don't feel like doing that by myself again.  Not as limber as i used to be.  The engine itself has 69k original miles on it and still sounds nice and tight, transmission is the original that came with this motor. (both from another 69 charger r/t).  wish i'd pulled some of this stuff out before the paint job, but now i'm facing doing it anyway.  Since i'll be taking the radiator and trans cooler out, and all of the accessories off the front of the motor, i figure then would be as good a time as any to consider replacing the cam and timing chain.  If keeping the original exhaust manifolds, is there any good reason to upgrade the heads themselves?  I figure i can go down to the shortblock, but thats about as far as i want to go for now. 

[Cooter]

IMO, I installing Aluminum heads ona stock compression 9:1 440 and running manifolds would be like takinga shower with your raincoat on.
Not worth the extra money.
I's stay in the 220-230 Range for an auto and that's pushing it with the stock converter. Do a nice port job on the heads with the stock valves and maximize what you have. HUGE valves don't do any good if your gonna shove the extra fuel/air through a straw = Manifolds.

[johnnyseville]

On a cam, roller on the street is a not a good option if you plan to drive it regularly, go with the hydraulic, if you are looking for a bit more power and excellent sound, like you have a much bigger cam, go to the Thumper Series from Competition cam, mild increases and big sound.  Save money on the heads etc, biggest bang for the buck NOS, but don't go crazy, unless you have forged rods, crank and pistons, maybe 100 HP total.  Use as needed

[Lord Warlock]

I thought the stock compression on a 69 440 magnum was 10.25:1 instead of 9:1,  but really thought the heads would be overkill and they are a substantial expense for little gain.  Unfortunately, NOS is out of the question, i've never felt comfortable with NOS, heard too many horror stories and getting another date correct 440 would be too expensive.  Figure porting the heads is a possiblity, thought about doing that way back when. 

[Cooter]

I thought the stock compression on a 69 440 magnum was 10.25:1 instead of 9:1,  but really thought the heads would be overkill and they are a substantial expense for little gain.  Unfortunately, NOS is out of the question, i've never felt comfortable with NOS, heard too many horror stories and getting another date correct 440 would be too expensive.  Figure porting the heads is a possiblity, thought about doing that way back when.  

Don't believe the hype. I also "read" the factory service manual on an NOS 350 Golden Commando engine that had NEVER been fired. Stated it should have 10.0:1 compression. Sent down to machine shop to have honed and re-ringed. Checked "Static" compression.....Piston's were almost .050 in the hole right out the factory. This put the compression somewhere in the 9.0:1 range with steel shim gaskets.
Had to mill .050 off the block to get corrected.
Nitrous Oxide is by far the cheapest bang for the buck ever. I love the stuff. When tuned correctly, Amazing gains can be had from a basic build.As with anything else when it began to become popular back in the early 70's, Nitrous was used improperly and certainly DID destroy engines. Today however, it would seem the kits now are pretty much "Stupid proof". A basic 125-150 Shot on a stock bottom end 440 will live. Anything OVER this level and forged pistons are needed. Once you ride in a Nitrous car, you'll Never want to ever go back to an "All motor" set up again. THIS is usually the problem as many tend to get What I refer to as "Nitrous happy" and set a 250 Shot On Kill and blow their stuff up. They get greedy. If a little is good, then ALOT has to be better right? Wrong. Too much forced induction will over power your stock bottom end. Just like anything else I guess, it's all relative.
Another thing with today's hot rodder is, nobody wants to take the time to tune anything. They just wanna bolt it on and go outrun their buddy all in about a 1/2 hour timeframe. This is NOT the case when tuning a Nitrous kit.

[Dmichels]

Take notes and listen to what everybody is saying. You have to build your engine as a total package, carb, cam, converter, rear gear ect. Build to the intended purpose.

[Lord Warlock]

Unlike today's kids who want to bolt on and run stuff, I like the 440 on the charger because you can manually tune it, I kept it in tune when driving it, and still keep it running today 30+ years later because it is something that responds well to a little effort put into tuning it.  The stock cam actually has a decent lope to it, but i'd consider changing the converter to a higher stall speed, a cam, an intake and possibly better carburation, provided it actually needed more than 750 cfm.  I always felt the 800 holley double pumper was a bit much for it.

With a rear gear of 3.23 non posi, it isn't really going to be a drag strip king.  It has always been a nice ride on the interestate provided you didn't mind getting fairly crappy gas mileage with it, which was the main reason why it went into storage to start with.  NOS sources locally are limited, as far as filling the bottles, the one shop i knew of that did it closed down a couple years back, getting the hardware is easy, keeping it filled not as much.  I'd rather just have a nicely tuned mildly modified 440 that ran naturally aspirated and can be driven to meets and shows rather than trailered.  I have other cars that are twin turbocharged with 14-20psi of boost, and to tell the truth, it'll always be faster than the old charger is, but the charger gives a different driving experience of brute power that is intoxicating.  The new challenger i drive daily is already faster in the quarter than the charger was, but the charger has potential that isn't really realized, it should be faster than the newer one is.  I've considered supercharging the challenger with a kenne bell unit and having it prepared and set up professionally, but spending 10k+ for a couple seconds of extra speed makes me think twice, and i've been waiting till the warranty expires before i seriously consider it.  Mr Norms builds the challenger supercharger packages, but doing so on the 5.7 v8 usually involves forged internals and thats a major build i'm wary about, i'd rather spend the extra available funds on the charger than on the daily driver.  I already went nuts on the twin turbo car spending over 15k on the rebuild, on a car worth about 6k. I may have to wait another decade to realize an increase in value to get near what i put into it.

[Challenger340]

IMO, if it were mine and I had a basically sound "vintage" original '69 440 ?
from what you described as your goals, I don't see much problem getting there with a basically stock '69 440 engine, as long as it indeed is a "stock" 1969 440 technically....
that being, with the high flat top pistons at .060" downhole from TDC as was the Factory target for the non-6 pack "Magnum" 375hp engines.
(The 6 pack engines were higher pistons, still flat top, but with 4 valve reliefs being higher compression at only .020" downhole at TDC. and under-rated at 390hp).
No matter, if yours is a "true" '69 with the .060" down pistons, then 425-440hp, however, with plus 500 ft/lbs is quite easily attained on a budget with even the stock valve iron 906 heads, a basic Hydraulic Cam, and some attention to detail....and YES, that is through the factory hp manifolds.
We routinely see those numbers, and better on the Dyno.... from our "resto" 6-pack Engine builds through HP exhaust manifolds and a 2 1/2" exhaust pipe, and we have to DUMP the C.R. DOWN to mid 9's for pump fuel on the iron Heads....so no reason you could not "tweak" UP slightly for the same results if that power would suffice ??

The only other caution I can think of.....is to warn against any "high" rpm blasts much above 5500 rpm on the stock rod bolts if you are not intending on teardown & rebuild, which is totally un-necessary anyways on a Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam of that size, and through the obviously CHOKE HOLD exhaust manifolds ? What I am getting at here is 53-5400 rpm...shift...be happy, and the plus 500 ft/lbs is plenty motivation.

My thoughts...I am sure other will chime in....Ron ?? ya listening ??

* Pull Heads and verify pistons @ .060" downhole at TDC.
* Rebuild the 906 heads if Req'd.....educate yourself...Bowl port the transition...Mopar porting templates work just fine....use a "quality" shop...not the local NPA/UAP machine place that does farm impliments, Back-cut the valves.
* Get yourself around 110 lbs seat pressure on the Valve Springs good for .500" lift, 285-300# open is fine, much past 310-320# open may be a bear for cam run-in safely ? even with Zinc in the Oil ?
* Have the Heads CC'd....and Milled/Corrected to 83-84 CC's, which depending upon Valve Recession from numerous Valve Grinds which sink the valves into the Heads....or just go get them milled .030"...which won't affect Intake Fit Alignment when using a composition Fel-Pro 1009 head gasket.
* get a Street Dominator Intake Manifold, and a 750-850 cfm Holley "downleg" booster carb...Vacuum only if ya have to.
* and here's where Ron and I will have different Cam opinions, he likes the Lunati's.....but we've seen öur "best" results on the Dyno, for us anyways at this level through HP Manifolds using the 274H CompCams Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam(3 Bolt), thats IT...thats ALL, which carries a better power area under the curve on the restrictive manifolds.
* Contact Topline Johnson direct for THEIR Lifters, the genuine Johnson "Hylift", there is a sticky at the top of this forum for contact info, do NOT buy Comps Hydraulic Lifters, which is just reboxed "whatever".
* Buy a decent Rocker Arm set(Roller)....and pushrods for correct valve tip Geometry
* Cloyes "quality" North American made timing chain & gearset...3 Bolt
* a 28-300 stall 11" convertor works best, even with 3.23 cogs as long as good quality is accessed...Turbo Action/Coan/Dynamic....stay away from budget cheapo's, they just heat and feel mushy.

A basic 9.5-9.6:1 C.R. 274H recipe, slightly worked Iron heads, Intake & Carb, accurate Valvetrain & Cam events, and let it get a run at the 2600-2800 rpm mark when you are mad at it with a decent convertor.

just my opinions....should be plenty to sport a poo eatin grin ?

[Challenger340]

I thought the stock compression on a 69 440 magnum was 10.25:1 instead of 9:1,  but really thought the heads would be overkill and they are a substantial expense for little gain.  Unfortunately, NOS is out of the question, i've never felt comfortable with NOS, heard too many horror stories and getting another date correct 440 would be too expensive.  Figure porting the heads is a possiblity, thought about doing that way back when. 

This could get long winded...but i'll try ?

The media hype back in the day of an advertised "10.25:1" C.R. for the 375hp "magnum" 440's was just that....hype, because actual production "magnum" Engines were closer to approx 9.75-9.8:1 C.R. as produced.
Here's what happened....
Most 906 heads pulled today after running 100's of thousands of miles, and rebuilds...CC around 88-90 CC's, same as most open chamber BBM heads.

The "magnum" Engine line heads back in the day...were supposed to maintain a Valve Tip height of 2.090" to 2.100"...no more...with the nominal spec for all other 906's being allowed to reach as high as 2.150" as fine.
Not saying that many of the Valve Tip heights on NON-magnum engines didn't leave the factory with valves maintained lower for smaller chamber CC's , just that the "intent" was to put the Heads with the Lower valves and smaller chambers on the "HP" Engines.
The .050" maintained lower Valve Tip Heights, good for approx 5 CC's smaller chambers, in conjunction with those castings maintaining the .750" nominal Machining Target(Flat Spot in the Chamber beside the spark plug for those interested what that is), were SUPPOSED to maintain a TOTAL Chamber Volume of 80 CC's for the 906 "magnum" heads.
Same went for the Blocks...."magnum" line Engines were supposed to be the Blocks closer to the 10.71 nominal Deck Height, instead of the 10.72" Normal deck height, which even though they used the same Pistons as the non-Magnum Engines, would bump the magnums another 2.4 CC's C.R.   

They were close...but no cigar as produced...with most "magnums" leaving around the 9.6-9.7:1 C.R. mark, albeit WITH Hotter camshaft/Springs/Windage tray, etc., and only the rare "oddball" actually leaving and maintaining the production target with the actual 10.25:1....and those were real screamers with the extra half point. 
Here's the math;
'69 piston @ .050" downhole on the Magnum Line(10.71")..instead of the "normal" .060"(10.72" Block)(2.4 CC per .010)X 5 = 12.0 CC
Steel Shim Gasket @ .020" or again...roughly 5 CC's
The .750" Chamber depth to the Machine Target pad, with maximum 2.100" Valve Tip Heights yeilded 906 Chambers @ 80 CC's
Total targeted Clearance Volume.......97 CC's
440 std Bore swept Volume @ 900 CC's
10.27:1 Compression Ratio.


although,
and go check the history books for yourself....
curiously enough, the N.H.R.A. legal stock minimum head CC for a 284906 head casting was ....back in ther day....get this...79.5 CC volume !!
Seems N.H.R.A. were on top of the "intent" by Chrysler....and limited rulings for compliance accordingly.

So, to answer your original question...."most".... 1969 440 magnum 375 hp Engines, as produced...were close to 9.7-9.8:1.....only a few leaving actually "correct" at the advertised 10.25:1
and,
again...."most" you will find have the Piston .060" downhole at TDC instaed of the .050"
and,
with most 906 heads around these days having survived numerous Valve grinds, Seat recession, etc., most CC same as other open Chamber Heads at 88-90 CC.s.
The above is NOT to say.....that if you indeed still have a "vintage" original '69 440 with the .060" downhole pistons, that you aren't sitting fairly sweet for a mid 9's C.R. build with a little 906 head restoration to make a real nice engine.

[Lord Warlock]

Now these posts, even being a bit over my head, make sense to me.  Nothing i can't resolve by a bit of research.  Time i have.  While i accumulate enough to have the heads worked on.  Getting the manifolds off the head is the only tricky part, some of those long bolts thru the manifold were rusty looking when i put them on 30 years ago.  Manifolds are factory originals, as are the heads, but i pulled the block out of another 69 charger r/t (numbers matching).  My original motor would have been built in late 68 (9-04), the replacement was around 1/69.  I did verify the vins on the block and car so know the motor i have is at least an original 69 440 magnum, although i always thought the first one ran a little better.  Whether it was 9.5 or 10.25 i would never know without a real mechanic looking into it.  I do know that if the timing was advanced a little, it'd detonate even on the best premium at the time, usually ran 100 octane till i couldn't get it anymore.  Back then though, a 9.0 you could run regular thru and didn't need premium.

Suppose i'd have to ask how to measure .060, getting the piston at tdc i understand and can do.   I figured if i did ever pull the motor out again, i'd have it blueprinted and balanced, but after waiting too long to get to it, think my body wouldn't put up with the strain of leveraging a 440 out the top again.  But thats why they have machine shops for engines.  To do the work i'm not comfy with myself.  

[Cooter]

That's another term being tossed around lately by sellers of these type cars, when sellers really have NO IDEA what "Blueprinting" really means.
It's TIme consuming as hell. Balanced just simply means you balanced all the internals. Who doesn't do that when rebuildng??

[Lord Warlock]

I actually watched a shop go thru the balancing routine when building a motor.  I'd warrant to say that a majority of builders wouldn't take the time or effort to balance a motor when building one instead they buy a matched set of pistons and rods, and maybe a crank and think its blueprinted or balanced, building a motor from scratch isn't too terribly difficult, just buy the parts and assemble them in the correct way and it will run, sometimes run well, but to optimize the potential, close scrutiny of every part involved is necessary  and yes it is very time consuming and therefore expensive.  It just isn't cost effective to build them that way.  Many of the younger generation think a self built motor is going to last as long as a new car would, then freak out when it blows up in 5k or 10k miles.  Seen this occur many times with the 3000gt/stealth owners, which is why when i put mine together i went thru the extra expense of getting a new shortblock from the manufacturer.  At least i know it was put together right with good quality control.  Even so, it hasn't been blueprinted nor balanced.  
I'd only consider it for one of my hobby cars, and thats the charger, as i feel it is the only one worthy of a professional build up, luckily we do have a good builder nearby whose worked on two of my other cars.  I've only built two engines in my life, a 383 magnum and a 350 chevy, and while the 383 ran very well afterwards, it died within 2 years due to using an old oil pump pickup tube and a teflon coated timing gear that came apart.  The chevy lasted long enough to sell the car (a 70 z28).