High lift Solid roller cams on the street.

[Cooter]

Hadda friend over to the shop the other night and he expressed his ideas regarding roller cams and the lack of need to run the "good" oil as they are rollers. I expressed my concern stating the roller lifters are coming apart at the axle/roller under STREET driving due to high spring rates on the solid cams. So the "Good" oil seems to still be a need even with roller cams.


My question is, Can one theoretically run say a .680 Lift Solid roller cam with the "good" oil on the street and it live past the first 10K miles?
I know with the 5.0 liter croud, all we had to do was basically upgrade the cam and we ran the stock lifters with hydraulic rollers for well over 100K miles.
With the cost of solid/hydraulic roller components, it would stand to reason they would last, but this hasn't been my experience reading about all these badass cars on the Power Tour "eating" lifters after only 500 Miles on the street. Sure, it'll run in the 9's 1/4 mile, but won't go 500 miles without eating a lifter.
Another buddy just finished up his 650 HP LS motor in his Vette, and the head man. out in Cali. told him he'd be fine with the stock roller rockers. One Lifter and one rocker ground up. He was running the good oil as well. "only" a .675 Lift Solid roller cam installed. Made it 800 miles on a brand new engine.



So what say you?

[johnnyseville]

Not very likely, in fact highly unlikely.  Regardless of what lubricant you use, due to the high spring pressures, these set ups rarely last more than 3-4000 miles.  The roller lifter, specifically  the tiny needle bearings supporting the rollers give up, filling the engine with this debris and resultant failures. Great for power, and the IN thing to do for a super Hot engine, but no way around it.

BTW.. I used to run a 700 plus lift roller in my Hemi, never put much miles on it, so never had a problem.

[BY RSCO]

I have been back and forth on this one as well. I really think when you get into that much lift, you for sure increase stress on lifters, springs, etc. There is just no way around it. This is the point where the old saying comes in "if you want a race car, then build a race car" - granted, there are some very fast street cars out there, but it does not come without a price.. I am going to be giving up somewhere in the neighborhood or 50-60hp (and using that number very conservatively....) on my 493 that is underway right now, but it is all for the sake of added reliability of not going crazy with the camshaft. The "good" oil will also still be ran in it - in the grand scheme of things it is cheap insurance.  Those are my  worth, which are probably worth less than a penny in the real world.. 

[bobs66440]

My buddy has a radical high dollar 520" street roller motor with a high lift solid cam and all Harland Sharp stuff. He has about 3000 miles on it and the builder told him he needs to send out all the lifters for inspection now (regardless of oil used). Way too much hassle for a street car for me...

[green69rt]

I've been thinking about my engine build and this thread brings up some questions in my mind.  SO a roller hydraulic cam would be good for a street engine that will be driven 2-3000 miles a year and have good reliabilty (better than a regular hydraulic cam???)   Or would I just be wasting money on the roller setup??   Mild 440 with headers.

[Cooter]

I'm thinking it has more to do with how much LIFT the roller cam has as to how hard it is on Valve train components. I think a Mild roller might live.

[bobs66440]

I'm thinking it has more to do with how much LIFT the roller cam has as to how hard it is on Valve train components. I think a Mild roller might live.

I agree. They have been using hydraulic rollers successfully in Mustangs and other cars for decades. Hydraulic, that is. A mild solid will live also with regular adjustment, but if you're going mild, then you wouldn't want a solid cam anyway...

[oldschool]

It all depends on the spring pressure.  With the solid roller cams you need to run much higher spring pressures.  If you run a very mild solid roller you might be able to get away with less spring pressure but it will still be a lot more than a hyraulic cam.  The spring pressure is what tears up the lifters and wears out the rocker arms. 

I use solid rollers in all my street driven cars, I just replace valve springs and lifters every couple thousand miles.  On my 580" motor that I drive on the street, it has 270 lbs on the seat and 850 lbs on the nose.  I just had some comp roller bearing lifters fail on this motor.  On the advice of firefighter Ron I switched to some Isky solid bushing roller lifters.  They claim these lifters have 350% more load carrying capacity.  These should be perfect for high spring pressures, they are also rebuildable.  I haven't run it much because of winter, but the idea of not having tool steel roller bearings flowing through my motor is reason enough for me to go to the bushed lifters. 

I hope this helps.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

It's also quite a fair amount of dough to shell out. Is the extra dollars worth the few exta horsepower?

[johnnyseville]

It's also quite a fair amount of dough to shell out. Is the extra dollars worth the few exta horsepower?

When you get to a certain point in an all out engine rebuild, that extra few hundreds can make a difference, so yes, under those conditions it does pay.  For street, NO.

[oldschool]

It's also quite a fair amount of dough to shell out. Is the extra dollars worth the few exta horsepower?

they are alot cheaper than an engine rebuild. tool steel will wreck a motor. in the right motor, a roller cam is is alot more than " a few horsepower".........

[oldschool]

It's also quite a fair amount of dough to shell out. Is the extra dollars worth the few exta horsepower?

When you get to a certain point in an all out engine rebuild, that extra few hundreds can make a difference, so yes, under those conditions it does pay.  For street, NO.

you dont need an " all out" engine build to take advantage of a roller cam. most new cars have them now.....

a roller will almost always make more power than a hydraulic or solid, at the same specs.

[Cooter]

you dont need an " all out" engine build to take advantage of a roller cam. most new cars have them now.....

a roller will almost always make more power than a hydraulic or solid, at the same specs.

See, that's what I'm referring to. I've been taking advantage of roller cams in 5.0 Mustangs for years and figured I could do the same with the BB Chrysler.
However, it would seem that BB Mopar guys are left with SOL when it comes to say a .600 Lift Roller on the street and NOT have to tear it down every ten minutes.

I've run as much as .530 Lift in my own mustangs, and seen as much as .600 Lift run on the street for years with no problems. Granted, they were all Hydraulic rollers, but still.

I just need to figure out how I can seem to Take advantage with my 440.

[firefighter3931]

I have a .680 solid roller in the 572 with moderate lobes requiring 250/600 spring pressures. Top shelf valvesprings/retainers, Harland Sharp roller rockers and the best lifters made (Isky EZ-Roll) with the solid bushing as opposed to needle bearings. 

The key is using quality parts, especially on a street/strip build that will see extended idle time in traffic, cruising etc...

Hydraulic rollers work OK but are rpm limited due to the inherent design of the hyd lifter accompanied by a heavy valvetrain. Most hyd rollers become erratic/unstable at 5500 rpm so if your build is configured to make power beyond that threshold a hyd roller is not your best option.



Ron

[johnnyseville]

Very nice lifter!  Pricey, but worth it when you have so much money in your engine.  I am sure will extend life past the conventional needles, though how much, not sure.  Anytime there is a moving part they are subject to failure.  Solids are king as far as dependability.  Though I do not see much of them used anymore, the mushroom tappets were a step up from the conventional solids, downside was the machining involved.   Still used in oval tracks where rollers are not allowed.

[firefighter3931]

Johnny, the EZ-roll lifters are expensive, no doubt....but worth every penny in my opinion. 

A buddy has them in his 800hp pump gas Hemi with several thousand miles and hundreds of passes. He has sent them back to Isky twice while freshening the motor and both times they were returned intact and he was told :  "good to go" 

With the lower spring pressures of street roller these lifters are virtually bulletproof. Others run them with 1000lbs over the nose without problems and thousands of passes.

Proper valvespring inspection and maintenance is key ; once the springs start to go away the lifters will bounce and stuff starts to break. The more agressive the cam profile....the more inspection/maintenance/parts replacement required, no way around it. 


Ron

[fizz]

so I just got a cam reccommendation from comp for a 493", fuel injected engine w/5 speed manuel trans, looking for 550-600 hp, interstate capable. Asked for a roller lifter. It is a comp retro fit xr286hr-10. Good Choice or not

[johnnyseville]

Johnny, the EZ-roll lifters are expensive, no doubt....but worth every penny in my opinion. 

A buddy has them in his 800hp pump gas Hemi with several thousand miles and hundreds of passes. He has sent them back to Isky twice while freshening the motor and both times they were returned intact and he was told :  "good to go" 

With the lower spring pressures of street roller these lifters are virtually bulletproof. Others run them with 1000lbs over the nose without problems and thousands of passes.

Proper valvespring inspection and maintenance is key ; once the springs start to go away the lifters will bounce and stuff starts to break. The more agressive the cam profile....the more inspection/maintenance/parts replacement required, no way around it. 


Ron

Glad you pointed these lifters out.  I am trying to work out a deal on a real wild stroked Hemi, big roller, but doubt he has these lifters, basically a Comp Cam package.   If I do, this will be the first thing I update with, since it will be basically a street freak and need reliability.  Driving stock is really boring. Thanks for the info. 

[firefighter3931]

Glad you pointed these lifters out.  I am trying to work out a deal on a real wild stroked Hemi, big roller, but doubt he has these lifters, basically a Comp Cam package.   If I do, this will be the first thing I update with, since it will be basically a street freak and need reliability.  Driving stock is really boring. Thanks for the info. 

No problem Johnny, the Isky's can take a lickin' and won't start tickin ! 

The Comp 829's are OK for limited use (drag race) or slow lobed street rollers with mild(er) spring pressures. Even at that, they should be inspected/re-built every 1-2 years. Comp needs to step up their roller lifter program, inmo. 

Brian (OldSchool) was eating lifters in his 580 Wedge and using a stiff spring to control the valve action with 1.7 rockers and .800 valve lift ; the EZ-Roll's were a clear winner when it came time to replace those parts. I'm very confident his lifter issues are a thing of the past. 

Good luck on your build....i look forward to the results ! 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

so I just got a cam reccommendation from comp for a 493", fuel injected engine w/5 speed manuel trans, looking for 550-600 hp, interstate capable. Asked for a roller lifter. It is a comp retro fit xr286hr-10. Good Choice or not

That's a hyd roller cam....good to 5500rpm redline. Depending on the cylinder head choice it could be a good fit to achieve your power goals and be reliable. 


Ron

[Challenger340]

Good Thread....
I think the best thing to remember here...is to distinguish between HYDRAULIC Rollers, STREET Mechanical Rollers, and RACE Mechanical Rollers....
and,
the limitations/demands placed upon the Lifters by the Spring Rates and Pressures each of the above types of Cam profiles requires.

Wanna really have fun.....then start discussing spring slew rates for each of the above @ rpm as a factor to destructive harmonics to control in the street driven environment.
IMO,
Leave the "Race" Roller Profiles at the track....lest ya wear yer parts on the street.

[Cooter]

VERY good info gentlemen! Sounds like for my set up, I guess if you want HUGE power and not have to tear into the engine every year to replace worn out lifters, it'll have some sort of Forced induction on a mild build. That way, You aren't trying to take a 700 HP race engine ("All motor") and drive it on the street. Kinda like Stall Converters were about 10 years ago. A 4500 Converter on the street couldn't be done. I tried.. Today, it would seem that's the "norm".

[fizz]

Ron, from past post we were thinking Indy EZ. Here I am hijacking again

[fizz]

Do you think I should get the whole valve train, ie lifters, rockers, and shafts from comp, or is there a better choice

[firefighter3931]

Ron, from past post we were thinking Indy EZ. Here I am hijacking again

Ok, now i remember....post from awhile back. Sure the EZ head is fine or even the Edelbrock RPM could meet those power goals ! 

Do you think I should get the whole valve train, ie lifters, rockers, and shafts from comp, or is there a better choice

There are a lot of choices and the Comp Pro-Magnum rockers are very nice and compatible with Hyd Roller spring pressures. Problems arise when spring loads exceed the design limit of the rocker arm. With heavy spring loads you really need a fully rollerized rocker system. 


I would have no problem using the XR286HR with the matching springs/lifters 


Ron

[oldschool]

quote:   "the Isky's can take a lickin' and won't start tickin !"

good one ron . isky should use that as their slogan, and kick you some $$$ or maybe lifters for life....

[fy469rtse]

I've been thinking about my engine build and this thread brings up some questions in my mind.  SO a roller hydraulic cam would be good for a street engine that will be driven 2-3000 miles a year and have good reliabilty (better than a regular hydraulic cam???)   Or would I just be wasting money on the roller setup??   Mild 440 with headers.

Iv'just finished building my motor , its a solid roller, will be inspecting it regulary for any sign of wear, if so the fall back will be to the hydrallic roller, it's what every modern motor runs, you will be fine , put it into focus , you are running a hydrallic cam shaft, the adding the protection of rollerizing the typical wear point , just dont go over board on the lift mainly  , love your patience and your work, compared to you my rust work was easy,better lift , roller is able to cope with larger fifts,   just do your home work for all the combined workings

[johnnyseville]

In the old days, we just had Isky, Crane and Racer Brown.  Most of these others like Comp were not even around, though nowadays they are supposedly the hot names.  After checking around all the setups available for the Hemi at least, I will certainly go with Isky again.  They have great grinds, and those EZ lifters seem to be the best.   Can't wait until I find something to build again.

[fy469rtse]

I've been thinking about my engine build and this thread brings up some questions in my mind.  SO a roller hydraulic cam would be good for a street engine that will be driven 2-3000 miles a year and have good reliabilty (better than a regular hydraulic cam???)   Or would I just be wasting money on the roller setup??   Mild 440 with headers.

no your not eating your time, all modern engines run some sort of handrails roller set up , larger lifts an less wear with the roller set up, and hydraulic benefits of maintenance go ahead I look forward to seeing this car finished .