Look we're famous

[C5X DAYTONA]

Here is an email I just received...    


Point out to him that our hero Richard Petty says (and probably believes) that the restored #40 is the #40.     Even though we know it is really the 43.  
Hugh Hawthorne believes he has a real Petty Superbird.  Because Richard told him so.
George believes the fender scoops are for tire clearance.   Because they told him so.

Here you go again.  Talking about other stuff than the topic.  But, Hershal had the original #40 Bird..       And not just George.  But all the engineers say the same thing.  Since Day ONE.    George didn't just make this up.   This has been ALL the engineers comment from day one.    Clearance.    Tell your email friend that Pointer  35 years after the fact and says 3%..wink wink..  Your email buddy left that one out.      Some believe exhuasters with 3% with no test.   I proved the 3% hand written note to not be fact.  The E-Series car was not tested with extractors like the note implies.  I proved my point.   

[C5X DAYTONA]

I am pretty sure everything being said here has already been said in the most recent thread.    Before we go too far down the road, I will ask,  "Do we really need another fender scoop thread?"     I don't think there is any new information being offered for or against. 

We don't  .  But if these kind of things drive us to prove it, then I'm all for it.

Dane

I know I have better things to do than debate all this.   But then again..  Maybe I don't   

[Aero426]

I know I have better things to do than debate all this.   But then again..  Maybe I don't    

Don't you have a blue and white Ford to work on, or something?    

[C5X DAYTONA]

    If Erin hears you call her Dan Gurney Merc a Ford.....  You in a heap of trouble..   Just about done.  Not ideal weather today to lay on the final coat.     Going to work on this jalopy today. 

[odcics2]

The Chrysler document you question says FEATURES TESTED, does it not?
That would mean the listed items were indeed tested...   Including exhausters.   
The document is REAL and John Pointer verified it, in person, to me. 

It BASELINES the changes AGAINST the E series race car. 
So, listed are ALL the changes/improvements OVER the Charger 500 race car, to make up the Daytona package.


Again - Please just show us the original Chrysler document that states the fender scoops were for clearance and this thread can be put to rest. 
If you can't, just accept what has already been proven with original Chrysler documentation. 
       

[C5X DAYTONA]

The written note Features Test about the scoop is BOGUS.  Not the entire memo.  Just the scoop 3%.  The E-Series car doesn't have holes in the fenders.  There was only ONE E-Series 500.  That means the test was never done.  Do you get it??      Even if it was tested.....It doesn't matter.  It's about the order of how things happen.   The engineers TOLD Pointer to work on the top of the right fender from day 2.  Day 1 being the drawing with no exhausters.   There was no MEMO of the event.   Imagine that?   Someone asked to do something with no memo.  IT HAPPENS.   All the engineers say the same thing TO THIS DAY.   The funny part Wallace points out is that Ford and Grand National (NASCAR) called them exhuasters.  Wallace says so did we.  That was what was so funny to Wallace.  He chuckles about it.    Pointer worked on them to make sure they had ZERO affect.  Not visa versa.   The engineers didn't give a care what Pointer did to the fender top.  Just so they had a little room.  That is it.  It is that simple.   The trick was not letting Ford and the Grand National people know what was really going on.  

The memo does state there was a test.  Here is the kicker.   I have had the ONLY E-Series car in storage in my garage.  There is NO HOLES or repairs in the fender tops.     It's in a very good friends hands now.  If that memo is 100% legit.  THE FENDER WOULD HAVE A HOLE or repair done to it...     E-Series car debunks the memo about the E-Series car..   That the memo was written after the E-Series test which did happen but the Exhauster was not tested.   It is a suggested package memo.   All those test are documented but not the Exhauster test and it still doesn't matter,  The original intention was for the clearance cushion.   Pointer designed a bitchen extractor. 

[odcics2]

Here is the "E" Series race car the work was done on at Chelsea by John Pointer.  It's now resting under blue paint, known as the "Fake 88".    This is what you had tucked away?      

[C5X DAYTONA]

Spin away again spin doctor.   But correct...sort of.    That is the low speed test mule run at Chelsea like you say.  But, Not the wind tunnel car.  Come on now.    Bob McCurry did have the body panels swapped out to clone it into the #88 car that is in Talladega Museum where it has been sitting for many years.    I was a personal friend of McCurry's.  I know exactly how it went down.     But the E-Series test car your 3% memo is talking about is from the 3/8 scale car for the wind tunnel test.   Do you really think they would mock up a full scale car when the 3/8 car showed identical numbers?  Now come on.  I know now you are just throwing punches.       Below... This IS the actual wind tunnel E and F series car I talk about.  I thought I was clear.  There was only one car.    Now stop playing games.....wait....this is the internet...

[C5X DAYTONA]

I hope this is the last time I have to say this...............    Here is how it went down.   As per all the engineers.   ALL OF THEM.  Even Pointer.    (so don't shoot the messenger)    Pointer draws Daytona.  No extractors.  Shows McCurry.   McCurry says, my god that's ugly.  But will it win races?  Pointer says, yes it will.  McCurry says,  build it and if anyone gets in your way.  Tell them to come see me.    Pointer shows engineering the drawing.   Wallace said, (and I don't know who else)  make room on top of the right fender as we are close already and with all the added down force it will make,  we will hit again. (Wallace telles me personally that since they could modify the fender on the new car...Why not...)        Pointer works on fenders (feverically)  designing extractors.    Now, test showed that on the Daytona bubbleing (sides) the fenders caused drag on the Daytona (I think it was test 16) and was too be kept to a minimum just enough for tire clearance.  The extractor was NEVER tested in wind tunnel.  Notes show in the December 1969 (way after the car was built) that extractors could be added and have NO areodinamic impact.   So someone is BSing.  3% or 0?   But it doesn't matter if the extractor gave the car 10%.   The original idea came from the clearance issue on the right front ONLY.        To add to why not just install bigger bars..  There was not much time to get car ready and do suspension mods and have car ready for Talladega.  This was a rush job.    Now to why Pointer gives this wink wink 35 years later is beyond me and yes it does throw a wrench into it for most.  But not when you think about the order in which this all took place.  He then pourpusly lied in a published book?  Is that whay you are saying?   I hope not.  I really liked Pointer but don't you think that goes againt any moral judgement?    Pointer is quoted to saying (I got 3% with those things.)  It still was after he was told to fix the fender.  PERIOD.     I personally don't think Pointer lied.  Romberg was just asked here again a few months ago what the original purpose of the scoops were.   He said Clearance.  What more do you want.  A NOTERY?       Another fact is this too..   When Ford and NASCAR saw the car.  Chrysler said Extractors and that is what they Ford and NASCAR thought.   Chrysler laughed as they had just tricked them.  They didn't want Ford to know the car was going to get that low.   The Extractor story went on for years.  The Engineers came clean around 74-75 on the story.     That was the joke.   Not some 35 years later.

[Aero426]

 That is the low speed test mule run at Chelsea like you say.  But, Not the wind tunnel car.  Come on now.    Bob McCurry did have the body panels swapped out to clone it into the #88 car that is in Talladega Museum where it has been sitting for many years.    

The low speed mule got a production style nose and wing while at the PG.  This was long before any consideration was given to a museum donation. It's shown in one of the magazines.   Might have been CARS?   It's a black and white photo.   I am not looking at it, but I think it had the long test boom on the front.  

[Aero426]

Now to why Pointer gives this wink wink 35 years later is beyond me and yes it does throw a wrench into it for most.  

He was confronted on it.    His story up to that moment had always been in lock step with all the others.  

How do you know that the "Features Tested" memo only pertains to the 3/8 scale model?  

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Spin away again spin doctor.   But correct...sort of.    That is the low speed test mule run at Chelsea like you say.  But, Not the wind tunnel car.  Come on now.    Bob McCurry did have the body panels swapped out to clone it into the #88 car that is in Talladega Museum where it has been sitting for many years.    I was a personal friend of McCurry's.  I know exactly how it went down.     But the E-Series test car your 3% memo is talking about is from the 3/8 scale car for the wind tunnel test.   Do you really think they would mock up a full scale car when the 3/8 car showed identical numbers?  Now come on.  I know now you are just throwing punches.       Below... This IS the actual wind tunnel E and F series car I talk about.  I thought I was clear.  There was only one car.    Now stop playing games.....wait....this is the internet...

Sean... after starting out discussing this issue in a respectful way in my original thread, your posts have gradually become more confrontational and disrespectful... phrases like "Don't you get it?", "Spin away again spin doctor", and "Now stop playing games..... Wait..... This is the Internet... " serve no function in this discussion.  In my original thread, I spent a great deal of time trying to focus the discussion on the technical merits of the two arguments. Almost without exception, the technical merits were ignored, and the discussion more and more centered on the fact that the engineers had said the fender scoops work for tire clearance only.

Once again, I ask for a respectful discussion on the technical merits of the two sides...  I am prepared to go first with a discussion subject, or you or anyone else interested in participating can start the ball rolling...  I'm not prepared to endure personal attacks and innuendos without responding.  Throughout this discussion I have remained respectful, and some cases helpful to the opposing viewpoint...  Even creating sketches to show how small increments of added tire clearance might have been achieved.  Also, I committed to a donation of $100 towards a fund to have Doug's car tested in the wind tunnel, as did Greg K...  

Right now, I really don't have time to fully participate in this discussion... But will somehow make time, as long as it is fact centered... Not discounting what the engineers said, but not relying on it as the only possible source of the truth on the true origin of the fender scoops.

[hemigeno]

 That is the low speed test mule run at Chelsea like you say.  But, Not the wind tunnel car.  Come on now.    Bob McCurry did have the body panels swapped out to clone it into the #88 car that is in Talladega Museum where it has been sitting for many years.    

The low speed mule got a production style nose and wing while at the PG.  This was long before any consideration was given to a museum donation. It's shown in one of the magazines.   Might have been CARS?   It's a black and white photo.   I am not looking at it, but I think it had the long test boom on the front.  

[Aero426]

As you probably know, those two are internal shots.   The one I am talking about with the production style parts is actually in one of the magazines.   Left front 3/4 view. 

[C5X DAYTONA]

 That is the low speed test mule run at Chelsea like you say.  But, Not the wind tunnel car.  Come on now.    Bob McCurry did have the body panels swapped out to clone it into the #88 car that is in Talladega Museum where it has been sitting for many years.    

The low speed mule got a production style nose and wing while at the PG.  This was long before any consideration was given to a museum donation. It's shown in one of the magazines.   Might have been CARS?   It's a black and white photo.   I am not looking at it, but I think it had the long test boom on the front.  

I showed McCury this photo and he said,   This picture was taken when we got an award for being the first stock bodied car doing a closed course lap of 200mph.    I was the one who commissioned the car to be painted up like the #88 for this award.   He said this car was the#71 Test Car.   After all was said and done to be used for promotional purpose and to be in a museum........        Doug,   The parts swap on the #71 mule was sometime in the early-mid 70s as you know.  To whom did the work I don't know.  In house at Chrysler I would assume.      Bob also stated he still had the award.  I know he had 2 big boxes of pictures and his personal stuff from his days at Chrysler.  He was going to bring them back to me as a gift he said. Unfortunately he passed after losing his battle with cancer and didn't make it back to his winter home in Rancho Mirage CA.......    

[hemigeno]

As you probably know, those two are internal shots.   The one I am talking about with the production style parts is actually in one of the magazines.   Left front 3/4 view. 

Those are the only B&W shots I have with the long probe mounted in place.  There's a couple more photos (some with Buddy Baker) from Chelsea with a stock/production nose in place, but no probe.  I'm probably lost and not even in the same zip code as what you were thinking, Doug...

[C5X DAYTONA]

Now to why Pointer gives this wink wink 35 years later is beyond me and yes it does throw a wrench into it for most.  

He was confronted on it.    His story up to that moment had always been in lock step with all the others.  

How do you know that the "Features Tested" memo only pertains to the 3/8 scale model?  

The Features Tested Memo showes some of the test done to 3/8 car.     How was Chrysler to get that data on the proving grounds is why I state that.    Chrysler didn't have a wind tunnel at Chelsea.  Only the 3/8 car was wind tunnel tested.     I think the wink wink was the joke.  Just like when the car was showed to NASCAR.    When Pointer said.  Check that out.  I got 3%.  Wink wink.  That is the joke.  

[C5X DAYTONA]

Odcics2, Alan and DC.COM   ,  All due respect.  If I offended anyone (odcics2) sorry.    Not my intention.  But odicics2 repyling that I have a trick up my sleeve...  I took it wrong on my end.  Like I said.  The internet         Alan,  test a Superbird extractor?  No.  The Daytona wind tunnel test were all done with the 3/8s car.  Use that.  We (Winged Warriors) still own it.   And if you look at the car.  It was never tested for extractors.  That is my point.   Like I said.  Even if it gave a 10% aero advantage.  It doesn't matter.   Pointer was told move up the fender and Pointer made an extractor.   That is how it happened.   I have always been...   Clearance first as per the engineers, then aero as per Pointer working on it as the Daytona didn't like bubbling the fenders like the base 500 did.   The extractor had a duel purpose.  But it started with clearance.    Sorry for the harsh words guys.   Alan,  please realize that he was basically calling me an idiot on another site as posted in the first post form DrHemi quoting Odcics2.      Alan,  You have posted in the past some great art work and with your knowledge of the subject.  But what is missing from your post is the initial meeting of the engineers.   The engineers telling Pointer to fix the fender top.   And Pointer designing an extractor.    A little more Clearance then Aero.   The engineers all say.  We didn't care what John did with it.  We just wanted the room.   That is how it happened.   Not John making an extractor first and then showing the engineers.  It really was the other way around.  Don't look at the finished product people.  Please.   Look at it from the beginning.   Hope this sounds better.  No disrespect.  Not my motive in life.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Odcics2, Alan and DC.COM   ,  All due respect.  If I offended anyone (odcics2) sorry.    Not my intention.  But odicics2 repling that I have a trick up my sleeve...  I took it wrong on my end.  Like I said.  The internet         Alan,  test a Superbird extractor?  No.  The Daytona wind tunnel test were all done with the 3/8s car.  Use that.  We (Winged Warriors) still own it.   And if you look at the car.  It was never tested.  That is my point.   Like I said.  Even if it gave a 10% aero advantage.  It doesn't matter.   Pointer was told move up the fender and Pointer made an extractor.   That is how it happened.   I have always been...   Clearance first as per the engineers, then aero as per Pointer working on it as the Daytona didn't like bubbling the fenders like the base 500 did.   The extractor had a duel purpose.  But it started with clearance.    Sorry for the harsh words guys.   Alan,  please realize that he was basicilly calling me an idiot on another site as posted in the first post form

Thanks Sean... I believe your response will help cool things down... And also I realize that there were things said on both sides of the issue that helped escalate the conflict.  I will start a series of posts that will help explain what I consider evidence and my reasoning behind believing it supports the aerodynamics improvement explanation for the origin of the fender scoops.

Anyone may chime in to either support or refute my evidence and reasoning, as long as it is done respectful of the beliefs of other discussion participants.  Anyone may pose their own subject matter for discussion on this issue, as long as it is pertinent to the thread subject... The original purpose of the fender scoops on winged cars.

[C5X DAYTONA]

    Alan.   The E-Series and F-Series Extractor test was not done.  If it was. It was after the fact.  The 3/8 car has zero holes in the fenders.  I was the ONLY wind tunnel car.  They even write it in their notes when they tested a full size Charger 500 and the little 3/8 car.  They said the numbers were identical so lets just work on the 3/8 car.   We can get all scientific but it just didn't happen in the order you think.  No disrespect Alan.      It really was in this order.  A drawing with no extractor.  Then told to work on it by the engineers.  Engineers had one idea in mind.  Pointer had 2.  My point is that Pointer was told to do it from the engineers.  That is why and all the engineers laugh and say.  It was actually clearance first.   Pointer being the brilliant man saw that he could take it a step further than the engineers wanted. 

[Ghoste]

Forgive me because I'm sure it's mentioned already in these threads but at what point in the timeline were they cognizant of the fender bubbling problem versus the decree for tire clearance?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Odcics2, Alan and DC.COM   ,  All due respect.  If I offended anyone (odcics2) sorry.    Not my intention.  But odicics2 repyling that I have a trick up my sleeve...  I took it wrong on my end.  Like I said.  The internet         Alan,  test a Superbird extractor?  No.  The Daytona wind tunnel test were all done with the 3/8s car.  Use that.  We (Winged Warriors) still own it.   And if you look at the car.  It was never tested.  That is my point.   Like I said.  Even if it gave a 10% aero advantage.  It doesn't matter.   Pointer was told move up the fender and Pointer made an extractor.   That is how it happened.   I have always been...   Clearance first as per the engineers, then aero as per Pointer working on it as the Daytona didn't like bubbling the fenders like the base 500 did.   The extractor had a duel purpose.  But it started with clearance.    Sorry for the harsh words guys.   Alan,  please realize that he was basically calling me an idiot on another site as posted in the first post form DrHemi quoting Odcics2.      Alan,  You have posted in the past some great art work and with your knowledge of the subject.  But what is missing from your post is the initial meeting of the engineers.   The engineers telling Pointer to fix the fender top.   And Pointer designing an extractor.    A little more Clearance then Aero.   The engineers all say.  We didn't care what John did with it.  We just wanted the room.   That is how it happened.   Not John making an extractor first and then showing the engineers.  It really was the other way around.  Don't look at the finished product people.  Please.   Look at it from the beginning.   Hope this sounds better.  No disrespect.  Not my motive in life.

Sean - I was slowly typing my reply during your last edit.  I fully appreciate the importance of the first meeting, but also realize that memories can go through subtle revisions as time passes, making a huge difference at times in the retelling of the event.  A case in point from my past:  A friend that I'd worked with on thrust reverser design told me a few years ago that he remembered we had to re-size the thrust reverser doors for the Cessna Citation X after testing showed that they did not meet the spec... what actually happened was that Cessna ordered us to re-size them because they do not believe our analysis was conservative enough.  Testing of the Citation X thrust reverser later revealed that the increased sizing was creating an exceptionally high loading of the engine mount, requiring us to use hydraulic restrictors to slow the opening rate of the doors.  Seemingly slight differences in memory created a vastly different picture of the event... and yes, I have written proof of my recollection.

[Aero426]

Forgive me because I'm sure it's mentioned already in these threads but at what point in the timeline were they cognizant of the fender bubbling problem versus the decree for tire clearance?

Forgive me because I'm sure it's mentioned already in these threads but at what point in the timeline were they cognizant of the fender bubbling problem versus the decree for tire clearance?

Bulged fenders were tested on the 68 1/2 Charger race car (aka the 2x2 cars, one of which became the #71 mule)

The genesis of the tire clearance issues can be found in the following two memos penned by GMW.  Note that he acknowledges that stiffer springs and t-bars were being developed to combat the wheel tracel problem.   Part of this I would attribute to the special build of the 2 x 2 cars and the way they were laid out.  

http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_060568.html

http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_062768.html

[C5X DAYTONA]

I have to learn this copy and past stuff.  Sure would be a time saver.   The Daytona was also tested for bubbled fenders.  Figure #15 on the Daytona (3/8) wind tunnel test.   The Daytona (3/8) did not like it.  It worked better on the 500.  But since the Daytona had smooth air flow it disrupted the air.

[C5X DAYTONA]

I have to learn this copy and past stuff.  Sure would be a time saver.   The Daytona(3/8 was also tested for bubbled fenders.  Figure #15 on the Daytona (3/8) wind tunnel test.   The Daytona (3/8) did not like it.  It worked better on the 500.  But since the Daytona had smooth air flow it disrupted the air.