Look we're famous

[C5X DAYTONA]

Forgive me because I'm sure it's mentioned already in these threads but at what point in the timeline were they cognizant of the fender bubbling problem versus the decree for tire clearance?

Forgive me because I'm sure it's mentioned already in these threads but at what point in the timeline were they cognizant of the fender bubbling problem versus the decree for tire clearance?

Bulged fenders were tested on the 68 1/2 Charger race car (aka the 2x2 cars, one of which became the #71 mule)

The genesis of the tire clearance issues can be found in the following two memos penned by GMW.  Note that he acknowledges that stiffer springs and t-bars were being developed to combat the wheel tracel problem.   Part of this I would attribute to the special build of the 2 x 2 cars and the way they were laid out.  

http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_060568.html

http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_062768.html

And because of this test is why WMB wanted the Daytona fender pushed up.  There was not enough time to get the car approved, on track and do more R-n-D.

[C5X DAYTONA]

Odcics2, Alan and DC.COM   ,  All due respect.  If I offended anyone (odcics2) sorry.    Not my intention.  But odicics2 repyling that I have a trick up my sleeve...  I took it wrong on my end.  Like I said.  The internet         Alan,  test a Superbird extractor?  No.  The Daytona wind tunnel test were all done with the 3/8s car.  Use that.  We (Winged Warriors) still own it.   And if you look at the car.  It was never tested.  That is my point.   Like I said.  Even if it gave a 10% aero advantage.  It doesn't matter.   Pointer was told move up the fender and Pointer made an extractor.   That is how it happened.   I have always been...   Clearance first as per the engineers, then aero as per Pointer working on it as the Daytona didn't like bubbling the fenders like the base 500 did.   The extractor had a duel purpose.  But it started with clearance.    Sorry for the harsh words guys.   Alan,  please realize that he was basically calling me an idiot on another site as posted in the first post form DrHemi quoting Odcics2.      Alan,  You have posted in the past some great art work and with your knowledge of the subject.  But what is missing from your post is the initial meeting of the engineers.   The engineers telling Pointer to fix the fender top.   And Pointer designing an extractor.    A little more Clearance then Aero.   The engineers all say.  We didn't care what John did with it.  We just wanted the room.   That is how it happened.   Not John making an extractor first and then showing the engineers.  It really was the other way around.  Don't look at the finished product people.  Please.   Look at it from the beginning.   Hope this sounds better.  No disrespect.  Not my motive in life.

Sean - I was slowly typing my reply during your last edit.  I fully appreciate the importance of the first meeting, but also realize that memories can go through subtle revisions as time passes, making a huge difference at times in the retelling of the event.  A case in point from my past:  A friend that I'd worked with on thrust reverser design told me a few years ago that he remembered we had to re-size the thrust reverser doors for the Cessna Citation X after testing showed that they did not meet the spec... what actually happened was that Cessna ordered us to re-size them because they do not believe our analysis was conservative enough.  Testing of the Citation X thrust reverser later revealed that the increased sizing was creating an exceptionally high loading of the engine mount, requiring us to use hydraulic restrictors to slow the opening rate of the doors.  Seemingly slight differences in memory created a vastly different picture of the event... and yes, I have written proof of my recollection.

Agree.  But the engineers just didn't just change their mind.   They all say the exact same thing.  Since day one.  35 years later Pointer does the Wink Wink.   Did he forget?  Like your thrust story.  That is my point exactly.  I agree 100% with you.  Storys change with time.   But what you have to realize is Chrysler didn't want Ford and NASACR to kow what they were doing.   After the car was banned.  The truth came out.  They engineers all say that.   It has been documented since the very first wing car meet over 35 years ago.

[C5X DAYTONA]

Alan, Odcics2, Doug and anyone else.  The extractor worked better as what it was called. An extractor.  That is not the debate.  It worked awesome.   The debate is how it got there in the first place.  In the order that it happened.     A test on a car now is besides the point.  It is why it got there in the first place..   One fact we can all agree on and the Daytona was built with one purpose.  Win at Talladega. Beat Ford.  Correct?    My point is that when the drawing was shown to engineering.  They immediately saw a problem right off the bat.  That was a rub problem on the top of the right fender is very likely..   Pointer worked on it so that it would not mess up the aero.    The exact quote is that he worked on it (feverishly.)   Now how could it be aero first if it was not there and he was told to do something?    That is the exact reason why all the engineers say clearance.   GMW exact quote is.   We didn't care what Pointer did to the fender.  That was his expertise.

[1RareBird]

Ok, so am I to understand that there is not any factory documentation that states the fender scoops are for tire clearance?  In addition, it sounds like the inner hood braces on the race cars were the limiting factor for tire travel, not the top of the fenders.  Not taking any sides here, just trying to understand the facts.

[richRTSE]

these 2 clips are from the June 5, 1968 document.....seems to me like tire clearance was an issue from the beginning....

http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_060568.html

[odcics2]

Take that document with a grain of salt - the 68 1/2 cars were deemed illegal by Nascar and Chrysler was told to never bring them back...
Legal cars had no issue.   Key word is legal!   The scoop discussion centers around the legal ride height of the 69 & 70 wing cars.

Happened to run across a couple of interesting photos. They answer the question of when the low speed car (converted to the fake 88) was donated to Nascar.

[C5X DAYTONA]

Ok, so am I to understand that there is not any factory documentation that states the fender scoops are for tire clearance?  In addition, it sounds like the inner hood braces on the race cars were the limiting factor for tire travel, not the top of the fenders.  Not taking any sides here, just trying to understand the facts.

Correct.  No docs.   Just the word of all the engineers when they talk about the first time they saw the picture of the Daytona idea and knew down force would be an issue.   The limiting factor is the bottom of the car hitting the ground.  You never what the suspension to bottom out on a race car.   Never ever ever. 

[C5X DAYTONA]

Take that document with a grain of salt - the 68 1/2 cars were deemed illegal by Nascar and Chrysler was told to never bring them back...
Legal cars had no issue.   Key word is legal!   The scoop discussion centers around the legal ride height of the 69 & 70 wing cars.

Happened to run across a couple of interesting photos. They answer the question of when the low speed car (converted to the fake 88) was donated to Nascar.

But it was on the mind of the engineers.  Even though it hit on illegal cars.  Those were test cars.   The 500 was slower and had way less down force.   Also Daytona (track) was a slower track and not banked as much in which the test posted above was about.   Talladega was an entire new ball game.  Nobody have ever been there.  They didn't know what to expect.   And look at what happened.  The tire hit the darn hood.  You bet bigger bars became an instant necessity.      IIRC they were bending upper or lower control arms.

[Aero426]

That is the low speed test mule run at Chelsea like you say.  But, Not the wind tunnel car.  Come on now.    Bob McCurry did have the body panels swapped out to clone it into the #88 car that is in Talladega Museum where it has been sitting for many years.    I was a personal friend of McCurry's.  I know exactly how it went down.    

I can't say that I agree with you here.   Here is the photo I was talking about earlier.   This is from the November '69 issue of High Performance Cars magazine, page 30.   Clearly the photo is of DC-74, the mule.   As you can see, the home built panels were swapped out for more production like pieces; long before any notion of donating the car occurred.

As to the donation, the July of 1970 Chrysler memo indicates the request came from NASCAR to the race group.  Gale Porter of High Performance Vehicles forwarded it to marketing.   I can believe that McCurry knew about it and signed off on it at some point.   I can't imagine that at his level, he would be involved with all the minutia of whether they donated the mule or the real #88, but OK.   Do I believe that McCurry told you that he had the panels swapped out?    Absolutely, yes.  

My point is, when doing research, credible people may tell you things they recall and believe as fact.   You may then believe them as fact.    It might not be one hundred percent correct.

[held1823]

that magazine shot had to have been taken very late in the development stage, yet the car still does not have the fender scoops. my two cents would be  that the aero design work had been completed at that point. if the fender scoops increased performance, it would have been known by this time, and they would have been on the car when this photo was taken.

what was known, is that the car was cranking out major amounts of downforce. magnify that by the steep track banking and potential for body roll due to centrifugal force, and it's easy to see the concern for right front tire clearance. having experienced the tire rub problem before, albeit on the illegal chassis, this potential issue was easily and, most importantly, quickly addressed by the fender scoops. the memo posted above discussed cutting away the support flange above the tire, to allow for more clearance. the scoop itself also accomplished the second half of the memo, effectively raising the fender.

the engineers didn't know if tire clearance was going to be an issue, but they weren't going to find out the hard way.  at this point in time and financial investment, they were certainly going to err on the side of caution, and not have their bullet waylaid by a tire slamming into the fender at 185 mph.

[C5X DAYTONA]

That is the low speed test mule run at Chelsea like you say.  But, Not the wind tunnel car.  Come on now.    Bob McCurry did have the body panels swapped out to clone it into the #88 car that is in Talladega Museum where it has been sitting for many years.    I was a personal friend of McCurry's.  I know exactly how it went down.    

I can't say that I agree with you here.   Here is the photo I was talking about earlier.   This is from the November '69 issue of High Performance Cars magazine, page 30.   Clearly the photo is of DC-74, the mule.   As you can see, the home built panels were swapped out for more production like pieces; long before any notion of donating the car occurred.

As to the donation, the July of 1970 Chrysler memo indicates the request came from NASCAR to the race group.  Gale Porter of High Performance Vehicles forwarded it to marketing.   I can believe that McCurry knew about it and signed off on it at some point.   I can't imagine that at his level, he would be involved with all the minutia of whether they donated the mule or the real #88, but OK.   Do I believe that McCurry told you that he had the panels swapped out?    Absolutely, yes.  

My point is, when doing research, credible people may tell you things they recall and believe as fact.   You may then believe them as fact.    It might not be one hundred percent correct.

Very true Doug.  I agree 1000%.    Pointers story is another one I'd say changed too.  And here is a Mule Pic you post at Chelsea and there is still no fender vents.  Pointer story is getting questionable I'd have to say.   As for McCurry, as we all know, he was very involved with Dodge and his vehicles in automobile racing.  Especially the Grand National Series.  He did say he took the mule and turned it into the #88.  He did say for the 200mph award etc.  He did say it was dressed up as the #71 car.  But is sure looks that the body was already changed.  Even though the fenders and front valance at fender look re-worked on the currant configuration of the DC-74 #88 car.   Maybe they wanted it to look exactly like the real #88.   Will never know.  I did say to McCurry that it was a bummer to toss the #71 Mule's one off parts.  So McCurry's story does have a hole in it.   I agree.  Back to the scoop,   and as you know Doug, the fender scoop questions came up in the very first meetings with the engineers over 30 years ago.  They have not swayed until Pointer did his wink wink.  

[Ghoste]

So Pointer could have already been searching for an aerodynamic advantage in his mind before he was asked about tire clearance?

[C5X DAYTONA]

Yes,  but 30 years later.   

[odcics2]

A few points -

The Fake 88 was donated in 1973, not 72.  Baker won the Daytona 500 pole in '73 in the K&K Charger.  I am surprised nobody jumped all over that!  I guess we all aren't as smart as we like to think, me included!   

Perhaps the #71 mule in the photo above was on the way to get the scoops installed, after turning laps for a base line to see how it performed prior to scoop installation.
Any good engineer knows a baseline is most important or you get tainted, useless data after that.         Note that it is wired up for data collection.

When John Pointer saw that document he penned in 1969, he was absolutely floored.   You would have had to been there to appreciate it!  His face lit up like a pin ball machine!   There is was - from being buried deep within Larry Rathgebs files all those years!!!      (Just waiting to turn the Wing Car World on it's ears!)     

When questioned further about the 3% drag reduction of exhausters, he did mention that, "If that's what is says, that's what it was." 
The "wink-wink" was an a sign that the jig was up - the truth could finally be revealed. The data was now public. The coverup was over...
Consider this - what if that document was around at the FIRST meeting with all the guys???  Would the storys been different??   

As far as down force, from an aero standpoint, the Daytona was an atemp at zero lift in the front and a little down force in the rear. You can tune it with front spoiler size and wing angle.  For example, the Hamilton Bird was set up for some down force. The 43 not so much.  Look at photos of both cars at the Daytona 500.

[C5X DAYTONA]

I hear you on the paper work in Rathgebs file.   If Rathgab was asked today.  What would he say?  And show him the paper.  Show Wallace.  I would think his thought would be awesome.  Pointer did more than we wanted.  HEMIVIPER here on DC.COM talked to LR or GR last sumer about this very subject after this debate on DC.COM and he says the same thing.  Clearance.  My point is on this issue that Pointer was told to push the fender up right before the extractor thought came into place.  Pointer from there made and extractor.  What is still odd to me is not one extractor test has ever showed up.   Personally I would think that a 3% test would of been well documented.  Let alone all the other test and possible drawings to come to that conclusion.  Not just a sugested package memo with no docmunted test to back it up.  Like with the test of just bubbeling the fenders on the sides.  Well documented on the 500 and the Daytona.  It came is at a -1% on the Daytona.  And that test is well documented.      I understand that you and a few others personally talked to Pointer on the subject.   I truly believe that Pointer worked his tail off to make sure it worked as an extractor.  That is what all the engineers have said from day one.    Please see my point too.   I myself spent time with Mr.Wallace.  In Talladega and here in California.   His recollection has never swayed or has any of the other engineers.     He says Pointer worked feverishly on those extractors after engineering asked him to do so for clearance.   I can understand that Pointer would see it as an extractor.  That is what he made.  That is what they all have said.   Engineers I would think say clearance because that was the original intention.      My thought is too that extractors can be made with just louvering the fender top.  I know Alan could give the best examples of that.     That puppy is a huge extractor.  Why?   Why would Pointer not come clean till showed that paper?   Why after years of people asking the same question.  Why are the vents there?       I see it from the engineers point of view.  They got what they wanted.  A little clearance..  I just can't see it another way without proof.   If that first drawing had an extractor I and many others would think different.  But they were not there until Engineering saw the drawing and he worked his magic.      It's like a crime scene.   Why was this person killed?  Some are looking at the bullet.  Others are looking into the mind of the shooter.    Maybe not the best example the wife said..      

[held1823]

i am the least informed person in this debate. i've never spoken to any of the engineers. i'm not even 100% certain which theory i subscribe to, but that said...



this early photo has fender scoops, which seemingly would not have been left off the car in the photo below, if they were indeed a speed advantage. why mock up the production-looking nose, and omit the scoops that would eventually be included in the daytona package. their overall shape was changed, but the car seen in photo below would aready be at a disadvantage without the scoops. given the time constraints of the program, it seems illogical to seek a new baseline for something that had aleady proven itself to be an advantage.




the second photo lacks the fender scoops that the production car ended up with. perhaps the tire clearance issue had not repeated itself with a legal chassis. the test equipment seen on the car appears to be concentrated on the nose, which might imply that the fender clearance issue had been put to rest. did the design group come together near the end, and reintroduce the fender scoops as an insurance policy against tire clearance? it has been mentioned before that race cars could not have modifications that the street cars did not. this is supported by the holes found in a street daytona fender, which served no purpose aerodynamically or  tire clearance wise.

[odcics2]

Production Birds had no scoop hole but the race cars did.   Of course the customers complained and there was a service bulletin put out to cut them.
But to qualify that hole for Nascar in 1970 - ALL of them would have had to have holes.
So, that theory has holes in it!  

Here is the back of the Daytona brochure.  Where is the hood scoop it says will be on the Daytona? Or larger front wheel openings, for that matter.

[Ghoste]

Or the standard Hemi engine in all the 500's?

[held1823]

very cool photo. thanks for sharing.

the last line above the engine specification area is the one i find interesting.

[odcics2]

very cool photo. thanks for sharing.

the last line above the engine specification area is the one i find interesting.

Fender "cooling vents" ??  !!!     

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Here is the back of the Daytona brochure.  Where is the hood scoop it says will be on the Daytona? Or larger front wheel openings, for that matter.

Most likely a reference the bubbled fenders tested... As seen in this wind tunnel report the bubbling of the fenders was a separate item from the fender exhausters, both in the text portion and the photographs.  See the attachments below for the underlined text references, and the photograph showing the bubbled fenders with no exhausters visible...

[mauve66]

seems to me that it was for clearance THEN they realized that there was an un-expected gain in aero.  even the document below says

exhauster added to top of fenders at wheel centerline with no aerodynamic penalties, doesn't even mention the possibility of a gain in aero

[nascarxx29]

Production Birds had no scoop hole but the race cars did.   Of course the customers complained and there was a service bulletin put out to cut them.
But to qualify that hole for Nascar in 1970 - ALL of them would have had to have holes.
So, that theory has holes in it!   

Here is the back of the Daytona brochure.  Where is the hood scoop it says will be on the Daytona? Or larger front wheel openings, for that matter.

Heres front and back of daytona postcard

[hemigeno]

Happened to run across a couple of interesting photos. They answer the question of when the low speed car (converted to the fake 88) was donated to Nascar.

I didn't realize the actual or exact date was of interest to anyone, but I can clear this issue up. 

Along with a bunch of other documents from Anthony Young, I got a copy of McCurry's speech outline/highlights from when the car was donated.  The title heading says:

Remarks by R.B. McCurry, Daytona International Raceway, February 15, 1973.

[odcics2]

The date of the fake 88 being donated coincides with the 1973 Daytona 500.    I wonder where the car was up until then?  Maybe in storage at Chelsea? That would be the logical place...

The wind tunnel study proves that the scoops were indeed tested there.   If there are no holes in the 3/8 model, that suggests the scoops weren't working, just statically present on the car. Perhaps, when on the red #71 mule car, those narrow front scoops were tested and on a real moving car, on a track and functional, they DID indeed have a 3% benefit that could not be witnessed in the wind tunnel because the holes were not present.   Since Pointer was stationed at Chelsea, he would have been the only guy with first hand knowledge of the 3% reduction.  I'd assume they ran many coast down studies to come up with the numbers of all the modifications. 

Now - does that mean that John Pointers numbers were all from the Chelsea track, or a combination of that and wind tunnel numbers??
 
The more digging that goes on, the more info comes out!   All good stuff!