4 Door Plymouth Barracuda

[JB400]

exhaust looks pretty good.  What gauges are you planning on running?  Factory e body, the horizontal guage cluster that was often used on the cheaper cars, or something different?

I just figured out why your building this
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/13/secret-service-next-presidential-limo-poll-report/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000588

[AKcharger]

It would not have been possible to have a 4 door Barracuda prototype built without Brass' knowledge as stated in Pages 9-12, BUT it's not only possible but PROBABLE that a 4 door Challenger prototype was made and owned by Ethel Merman




[/quote]

[resq302]

I just figured out why your building this
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/13/secret-service-next-presidential-limo-poll-report/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000588

  oh, man JB, you nailed it.  The jig is up!   

[chargerjy9]

I've been on the road and away from this discussion since page 12. It appears that everyone has kissed and made up. I just have a little more to say,

"Was it possibly for an Automobile Manufacturer to have things going on within a "Styling Studio" or Design Department where even the Head Designer did not have ANY knowledge of a particular Concept/Prototype Car being built?  To take it even one step further, would it be possible that even the TOP BRASS of that Automobile Company would not have known that a particular Concept car had been built?"

"Thanks for your reply.  If such a situation did exist with one of the "Big 3" Automobile Manufacturers, wouldn't that prove that there COULD have been Concept Cars built that may have slipped through the cracks and never exposed to the masses?  Many of these Concept Cars were suppose to be confidential so you wouldn't expect that they were highly publicized or talked about.  Isn't it a possibility that there might be a few Concept/Prototype cars that were built but even the Design Studio Guys didn't know anything about them?"

ECS  It seems that you are a stickler for exact, precise wordage, I have a few observations,however. it was brought up, repeatedly, about all the manufacturers doing 4 door "concept cars". You showed pictures of a 4 door Mustang clay model. By definition that is not a concept car, ( BTW check wikipedia's def; pretty accurate). It was a styling exercise, not unlike a sketch on a piece of paper that was rejected,crumpled up and thrown away. never went to concept car stage.Just an idea. Same for the 4 door Javelin, a fiberglas model that was cut up and thrown away, never went to concept car stage. Just an idea. Yeah, there may have been a 4 door Corvette, something cobbled up on the outside, That could be called a concept, or even further up the chain, a running prototype, but not relevant to the topic of discussion.

I had figured that by your repeated bold face questions, you were baiting us to drop a bombshell. I don't know your experience with the auto industry and the history behind it's operation, but the John DeLorean stuff, doesn't "prove" your point, really, either. Back in time, GM was a huge enterprise, each division sort of it's own corporation. they sort of ran separately from each other, they were in some respects competing against each other, they shared some common things, but some stuff was closely guarded, so the other guy couldn't use it. each division had it's own drive train for example. The styling studios were separate and secret between each division. Pete Estes, John D , Jim Wangers, et al, were instrumental in the running of  their own division. they knew what was going on, sanctioned it, payed for it from their budgets. Many people on their staff were involved, product planning, styling, engineering, etc. Even if it was done outside, many people in the corp, knew. Eventually, the top brass were included as the divisions answered ultimately to them.
Not really relevant to topic of discussion, certainly does not PROVE your statement that Chrysler designed and built a running 4 door Barracuda prototype.

This brings us to the little guys, the AMC's and Chrysler's of the industry. Much smaller in scale. Heck, one of GM's divisions by itself were bigger than those guys. There were few secrets, they each had only one engineering, one product planning, one Styling group, there may have been different product lines, i.e. Dodge, Plymouth, AMC large car, small car,etc. but everybody shared stuff.

Finally,the mailroom clerk may have seen something. It may have been  something cobbled up on the outside, may have been brought to Highland Park to show to management. I have talked to people who were there, who worked in the styling studios, they never worked on it, never saw it. Engineering, I talked to  guy who was involved in packaging the E body at that time,he never worked on it, never saw it.  It wasn't packaged, engineered or clayed up in Highland Park. there was no running prototype that came out of the metal or machine shop. I believe Tufcat's father who WAS there. No one recalls anything of the sort. IF Chrysler sanctioned this project, it had to come from these areas, as Ma Mopar was too small to have other facilities on site that no one would know about. If all this stuff was done on the outside, ( The cost, BTW, would have been astronomical to package, design, clay, engineer, tool and build running prototypes ), someone, still at Highland Park would have been involved.
That is not to say that some garage, outside, did build a running prototype. That is possible. Someone may have taken an e body, spliced in a b pillar shutface, etc. threw in a drive train. and passed it off. Chrysler simply wouldn't put their badge on it unless they controlled or managed it. period. that is the way it works.

We can go all the way back to page 2. Tuffcat's theory is probably spot on. The world needs to see proof:  photos, testimony, documentation,etc. before claims can be made that Chrysler Corporation built a running prototype of a 4 door Barracuda. If evidence can show itself, then sir,I take my hat off to you and wish you good luck with your endeavors.

[TUFCAT]

   unfortunately this won't be the end of the discussion... I guarantee that.  I can feel an ECS response coming in 3...., 2.....,1....., 

[ECS]

You've agreed with just about every version that people back peddled and shuffled to.    It seems he had quite a change in opinion......wouldn't you say?  ALL of that explaining after originally saying this:

NO, NO NO listen to me, PLEASE. NOT going to happen. Concept cars were and are being done by Design studios that the public never sees. But the corporation, only, thru Design Office, gives the go ahead for such projects. the corp would not sanction or put their name and reputation on a project that they knew nothing about. there is nothing done off site that they would back unless they had control.

[resq302]

The world needs to see proof:  photos, testimony, documentation,etc. before claims can be made that Chrysler Corporation built a running prototype of a 4 door Barracuda. If evidence can show itself, then sir,I take my hat off to you and wish you good luck with your endeavors.

Wouldn't an eye witness be considered testimony?  It's at least acceptable in the court of law.

[chargerjy9]

You've agreed with just about every version that people back peddled and shuffled to.    It seems he had quite a change in opinion......wouldn't you say?  ALL of that explaining after originally saying this:

NO, NO NO listen to me, PLEASE. NOT going to happen. Concept cars were and are being done by Design studios that the public never sees. But the corporation, only, thru Design Office, gives the go ahead for such projects. the corp would not sanction or put their name and reputation on a project that they knew nothing about. there is nothing done off site that they would back unless they had control.

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? that statement adheres to what I said in my last statement. The GM scenario does not prove the Chrysler scenario.The gang at Pontiac, doing these projects WERE the corporation, but they still answered to The 14th Floor guys,who would approve or not approve, stuff like that doesn't just slip under the cracks and be legitimately "imprimatored" by the General.. Therefore, not relevant. As far as the eyewitness thing. If he saw the car with documentation that declared "Property of Chrysler Corp" which was done all the time than he has credence.

[TUFCAT]

 

[Aero426]

NO, NO NO listen to me, PLEASE. NOT going to happen. Concept cars were and are being done by Design studios that the public never sees. But the corporation, only, thru Design Office, gives the go ahead for such projects. the corp would not sanction or put their name and reputation on a project that they knew nothing about. there is nothing done off site that they would back unless they had control.

There are no absolutes.   Corvette Grand Sport is an interesting case study.    While Chevrolet was officially "not racing", Duntov knew the Corvette was too heavy.   He went so far as to plan for 100 lightweight cars with unique lightweight frames and body work.   Five got underway before GM corporate heard about it and shut the whole thing down.    The five finished cars were sold to privateers and the story had a happy ending.   Of course, there are LOTS of photos of these cars in the construction stage.    All we really need is one proven to be genuine photo of a 4 door Barracuda study.  

[chargerjy9]

Yes, you are right. there are no absolutes. I am not backpedaling or waffling, BTW.
all this other nonsense has nothing to do with topic at hand.

show the proof before making statements. simple.

[Aero426]

Yes, you are right. there are no absolutes. I am not backpedaling or waffling, BTW.
all this other nonsense has nothing to do with topic at hand.

show the proof before making statements. simple.

[AKcharger]

Isn't this whole thing still based just one persons claim he saw the thing?

We have been treated to a lot of cool old magazine articles about other cars and stuff, but just to clarify after 17 pages of distractions this whole project is based on what One person claimed they saw  for a brief moment 44 years ago?

[JB400]

That is correct.

[Cooter]

Almost as amazing as the "Christine movie cars". They have all but come to blows at Carlisle because some douche said his car is real because someone remembers it in the junkyard 31 years ago. My buddy who's a member HERE, bought the Bill and Ed's LEDGER with every car that came into the yard since 1950's.
Guess which guys VIN isn't in there?
Yet, he has it covered with a black curtain, wants you to pay $20.00 for a picture at Carlisle last year, with a fake car, he got paid to enclose trailer to events all over the country.....

[odcics2]

The BEST way to approach this entire fiasco would have been to have vintage documentation FIRST prior to mentioning a 4 door Barracuda to anyone.

It would have been cool to show up at a HUGE MoPar Meet with the recreation (clone) and proof that one was made back in the day.   

Example - the Water Mellon Daytona.    I found the original color photo in the 80s.   THEN it was re-created...........  NO QUESTION - it DID exist!

Only question is where is the original hiding, or it's remnants??   (what happened to the "I have the watermelon Daytona wing thread? - any update)


On a side bar the workmanship I see is OUTSTANDING!   

[resq302]

Yes, but even with a photo, people still doubt that existed.  I still think it is cool idea to recreate something though!

[odcics2]

Yes, but even with a photo, people still doubt that existed.  I still think it is cool idea to recreate something though!

Are you talking about the Water Mellon Daytona not existing?

[ECS]

......that statement adheres to what I said in my last statement. The GM scenario does not prove the Chrysler scenario.The gang at Pontiac, doing these projects WERE the corporation, but they still answered to The 14th Floor guys,who would approve or not approve, .......

Your original answer to my question was "NO, NO, NO".  What part of "An Automobile Manufacturer & TOP BRASS" didn't you understand?  Just like I predicted, you have changed your position and are now trying to explain something that you originally said would never happen.  Pontiac was to General Motors what Plymouth was to Chrysler.  You said the Head Designers always knew what was happening.  You were wrong!  You said that the Top Brass always knew what was happening.  Again, you were wrong.  Did you miss where Pete Estes said that "all this prototype work was done on the sly without the knowledge of either Chevrolet Division or the GM Corporate hierarchy"?  He also said they built "a lot of experimental cars and engines every year, and we didn't tell a soul anything."  That includes guys like you and your breakfast buddies!  

[TUFCAT]

Is anyone else getting tired of seeing those black and white Pontiac Banshee pictures? 

[bill440rt]

As they say, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem in the first place.   

[ECS]

The BEST way to approach this entire fiasco would have been to have vintage documentation FIRST prior to mentioning a 4 door Barracuda to anyone.
On a side bar the workmanship I see is OUTSTANDING!   

Thanks for the input!  I have said quite a few times that this car is being built around the comments made by Roger Johnson and his recollection of a 4 Door Concept Barracuda.  We decided to undertake the project based on his story regardless of whether a picture exists!  It is a "What If" scenario that I have stated from the very beginning.  We are not saying that this is the car that Roger wrote about or that it is an exact representation of what he says he saw.  Other than the few specifics that he gave on the car, we have to fill in the blanks.

[ECS]

Isn't this whole thing still based just one persons claim he saw the thing?

Thank you for FINALLY understanding the one fact that I have said from the very beginning.  

[ECS]

Is anyone else getting tired of seeing those black and white Pontiac Banshee pictures? 

Especially with the high lighted commentary that contradicts everything your buddies have been trying to sell here!

[JB400]

Is anyone else getting tired of seeing those black and white Pontiac Banshee pictures?  

What was the purpose anyway?  I'd like to see more Cuda pix   If they exist