FirmFeel 2 or 3 box.. Help, need to order soon

[My9302002]

This is a follow up post to the previous.
Looks like I'm gonna go with a FF box
but can't decide between the 2 or the 3.
Car will be driven all summer, mostly highway.
I've searched the archives already... But
need more help. Anyone regret getting a 2
instead of a 3 or vice versa?
Thanks

[68 RT]

Go for the stage 3, I got a stage 2 and like it. But if I did it all over again I would do the stage 3. 

[alfe]

stear and gear 2,happy wit it,would not go with 3

[BrianShaughnessy]

Going to a smaller wheel like a Tuff or are you keeping the Titanic wheel?   

[My9302002]

Prob going with the tuff wheel

[Dino]

stear and gear 2,happy wit it,would not go with 3

Is that with the Titanic wheel?  I'm debating stage 2 or 3 myself and am leaning towards 2 even with the 14" woodgrain wheel.

[1970Moparmann]

Go for the stage 3, I got a stage 2 and like it. But if I did it all over again I would do the stage 3. 

I'm in the same boat! 

[My9302002]

Gonna do the level 2 box....
Enough with the research, gotta make a move!

[bill440rt]

In the two cars I have SnG Stage 2 boxes, one has the Titanic woodgrain wheel, the other a smaller Grant wheel. Both have a good road feel to me.
Others still prefer a Stage 3. It's all about personal taste.

[Dino]

In the two cars I have SnG Stage 2 boxes, one has the Titanic woodgrain wheel, the other a smaller Grant wheel. Both have a good road feel to me.
Others still prefer a Stage 3. It's all about personal taste.

Bill what's your daily and how does it compare?

[bill440rt]

In the two cars I have SnG Stage 2 boxes, one has the Titanic woodgrain wheel, the other a smaller Grant wheel. Both have a good road feel to me.
Others still prefer a Stage 3. It's all about personal taste.

Bill what's your daily and how does it compare?

'11 Ram 1500 4x4.     Kinda hard to compare. I guess just for steering feel they are similar.
I've never driven a car with Stage 3, but when deciding on a box I just thought that if I went with something that firm, I might have well just put manual steering in it. When asking the companies about firmness, I just thought the Stage 2 was a nice balance between the two. It's definitely firmer than the "arms shot up with Novocaine" feeling you get with a stock box.
If you are road racing or a competition build well then I guess you might want the Stage 3. But for a primarily street driven car I thought it was more than fine. A nice improvement. Very pleased.

[Dino]

In the two cars I have SnG Stage 2 boxes, one has the Titanic woodgrain wheel, the other a smaller Grant wheel. Both have a good road feel to me.
Others still prefer a Stage 3. It's all about personal taste.

Bill what's your daily and how does it compare?

'11 Ram 1500 4x4.     Kinda hard to compare. I guess just for steering feel they are similar.
I've never driven a car with Stage 3, but when deciding on a box I just thought that if I went with something that firm, I might have well just put manual steering in it. When asking the companies about firmness, I just thought the Stage 2 was a nice balance between the two. It's definitely firmer than the "arms shot up with Novocaine" feeling you get with a stock box.
If you are road racing or a competition build well then I guess you might want the Stage 3. But for a primarily street driven car I thought it was more than fine. A nice improvement. Very pleased.

Big Ram huh     Yeah that's not the best comparison. 

I think that's all I needed to hear, stage 2 it is!  Thanks Bill.   

[bill440rt]

 
Good luck!

[stripe74au]

In both my challenger and charger I got stage 2 FF. Now I wish I had gotten stage 3.

[Finn]

I have a FF stage 2. It's good, but if I did it again I'd try a 3. The 2 makes a big car like the charger feel like a new small to mid-sized car turning wise. I think the 3 would feel like a sports car which would be more fun.

[Dino]

I have a FF stage 2. It's good, but if I did it again I'd try a 3. The 2 makes a big car like the charger feel like a new small to mid-sized car turning wise. I think the 3 would feel like a sports car which would be more fun.

I would love for my Charger to turn like my Honda.  I was wondering why some wanted to go to a 3 instead and I can understand the want for a firmer sports feel.  For a cruiser though I think 2 will be spot on.  Now all I have to do is convince myself to fork over the dough...

[Brads70]

FYI ...Stage 3 and the fast ratio arms in my Challenger. Works great!  

[johnnyseville]

I would seriously be interested in this setup for my Daytona, just have to decide 2 or 3.  Probably leaning toward 3 from reading what some guys say about having the 2 already, would be nice if someone I knew had one to try out.

[72Charger-SE]

So, it seems the Stage 2 and Stage 3 are the same price, $359??   Why would someone purchase the 2 if the 3 is better and the same price?

Question for the OP... did you get the 2 or 3?  Are you happy with your decision?

[twodko]

I have a 2 and am happy with it. Admittedly I don't know what the 3 offers over a 2 but if they're the same price compare specs and let that decide for you. 

[myk]

So, it seems the Stage 2 and Stage 3 are the same price, $359??   Why would someone purchase the 2 if the 3 is better and the same price?

Question for the OP... did you get the 2 or 3?  Are you happy with your decision?

The 3 isn't "better," it's about personal preference and choice.  Some people like the more firm than stock stage 2, but others prefer the even more firm feel of a stage 3. 

My question is this:  why does an increasing firm steering wheel feel more "sporty" and "sportcar-like"?  Wouldn't an increasing firmer wheel be more difficult to manipulate and consequently be more difficult to turn rapidly? 

[bull]

I don't think the s3 is a harder turn necessarily, just less play in the system, ie., more responsive.

The FF s2 is great. The one in my Charger feels perfect for everything I do but the entire front suspension has been restored with boxed lower control arms, an FF reinforced k-frame and all new parts. That said I'm sure I would love the s3 too. If/when I ever build myself another Mopar I will try an s3 just to compare.

[myk]

Hmm...I'll probably have to go with the FF3 if I don't go with the Borgeson unit...

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

I have the ff stage 2 and am happy with it. Huge improvement over stock.

[myk]

Could the stage 3 be seen as...."too" firm?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Im told the stage 3 feels like the modern charger/challengers. If so, i am putting a stage 3 in my car when the time comes. My 07 has a nice tight feel, not as tight as a manual, but you are not steering with your pinky like i can in my '69. One handed operation is no problem in the '07

[myk]

Hmmm.....I like the sound of that but I'm still skeptical...

[BLUE68RT4ME]

I went with Stage 2.  The only reason I didn't do 3 was because I didn't want to mess with the different pitman arm.  My friend Troy who owns the RT Garage and who invented the Rev-N-ator goes with Firm Feel on every one of his builds.  His advise to me was simple, "You have to do the Stage II.  If you want to go further (Stage III), fine.  You'll love it but the Stage II is going to change your car so much you won't believe how much better it will be to drive."

I replaced my whole front suspension with new FF offset bushings, poly bushings and FF linkage with the rod ends so you can really fine tune your alignment.  I have 17X7's up front and the Grant Wood Stearing Wheel as well.  I'm able to turn it with a single finger but I didn't box my K-frame or control arms in, or put on bigger sway bars, so I think most of the advantage of Stage III would be lost on my car.  It's all good.  I think that's the bottom line!   

[bill440rt]

The difference between II & III boxes is firmness. You're still going to have the original PS box characteristics and all that go with it. It's going to be as "tight" as a stock rebuilt box, just firmer feeling.
Stage 2 with a smaller wheel works fine for me. I have a Ram as a daily, feels similar to that if you're just comparing firmness. I like the feel, wouldn't want it tighter. Just my preference. Even with the larger stock steering wheel, there is a noticeable difference.

[myk]

The difference between II & III boxes is firmness. You're still going to have the original PS box characteristics and all that go with it. It's going to be as "tight" as a stock rebuilt box, just firmer feeling.
Stage 2 with a smaller wheel works fine for me. I have a Ram as a daily, feels similar to that if you're just comparing firmness. I like the feel, wouldn't want it tighter. Just my preference. Even with the larger stock steering wheel, there is a noticeable difference.

OK so I'm trying to imagine the feel of this thing.  It's more firm but it will still feel like the stock box? How does it still feel like the stock box?

[bill440rt]

OK so I'm trying to imagine the feel of this thing.  It's more firm but it will still feel like the stock box? How does it still feel like the stock box?

Because it is based on a stock box. They are remanufactured stock Chrysler boxes modified for different levels of "firmness". Imagine installing a freshly rebuilt stock box, and then make it feel firmer.
Don't read into that the wrong way, it is a 100% IMPROVEMENT. The result is better road feel. Many cars out there have them.
The only way to go a step further is to install the Borgeson unit or rack-n-pinion. That may increase responsiveness.

[myk]

OK so I'm trying to imagine the feel of this thing.  It's more firm but it will still feel like the stock box? How does it still feel like the stock box?

Because it is based on a stock box. They are remanufactured stock Chrysler boxes modified for different levels of "firmness". Imagine installing a freshly rebuilt stock box, and then make it feel firmer.
Don't read into that the wrong way, it is a 100% IMPROVEMENT. The result is better road feel. Many cars out there have them.
The only way to go a step further is to install the Borgeson unit or rack-n-pinion. That may increase responsiveness.

I was definitely looking at the Borgeson unit, but it's twice as much and requires cutting the steering column; that irks me for some reason.  If I can install the FF box and improve the car THAT much then I'll go in that direction...

[bill440rt]

I actually went with Steer-n-Gear. Same/similar concept. They offer boxes in 3 different levels as well. I have their boxes in my '68 and '69, both Stage 2.
I was able to pick them up at their vendor spot at Carlisle. No shipping, no tax, and I brought them my old boxes for cores so there was no core charge and no shipping sending my core to them. IIRC they offered more for your old core. FF would have been much more expensive due to shipping & core charges, at least in my case.
S-n-G is based out of OH, FF is out on the west coast.

[Kern Dog]

If firm feel is your choice, go with the Stage 3.
I Have the Stage 3 with the Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. The 15.7 ratio is changed to approx 12 to 1 with the FR arms. I like the steering but if I had the $$$ now I'd be interested in trying the Borgeson unit.

[myk]

If firm feel is your choice, go with the Stage 3.
I Have the Stage 3 with the Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. The 15.7 ratio is changed to approx 12 to 1 with the FR arms. I like the steering but if I had the $$$ now I'd be interested in trying the Borgeson unit.

No headers with that setup, right?

[Kern Dog]

TTI headers, 2" size. Their instructions state that their headers will NOT clear but mine do by 3/4".  They were trying to cover their asses on that one.
I remember the day clearly: I slid under the car with a fast ratio pitman in hand and laid it against the stock one. I was surprised to see how much room I had. The RH side had even more room so i went with both the Idler and Pitman.
Steering response is great once I'm a few degrees off center. There is a dead spot at 12:00 that cannot be adjusted out. The coupler is rebuilt, the K member is welded and reinforced at the steering box mounts, the bushings and ball joints are in excellent condition. I'm told that the "slop" is just a characteristic of the design.

[myk]

TTI headers, 2" size. Their instructions state that their headers will NOT clear but mine do by 3/4".  They were trying to cover their asses on that one.
I remember the day clearly: I slid under the car with a fast ratio pitman in hand and laid it against the stock one. I was surprised to see how much room I had. The RH side had even more room so i went with both the Idler and Pitman.
Steering response is great once I'm a few degrees off center. There is a dead spot at 12:00 that cannot be adjusted out. The coupler is rebuilt, the K member is welded and reinforced at the steering box mounts, the bushings and ball joints are in excellent condition. I'm told that the "slop" is just a characteristic of the design.

3/4"?  Like the couple at after-prom said, "wow that's tight."   I'm glad it works for you though
Do you have any other aftermarket suspension pieces? Maybe that would take care of the slop?

[WHITE AND RED 69]

I was definitely looking at the Borgeson unit, but it's twice as much and requires cutting the steering column; that irks me for some reason.  If I can install the FF box and improve the car THAT much then I'll go in that direction...

Myk, look up Bergman auto craft. He sells a coupler adapter so no cutting the column is involved.

I tried to do the fast ratio arms with my setup and it was not going to happen, idler arm went a good 1" into the header tube. I don't know how big of a difference there is between my TTI 1 3/4" headers and Red 70 R/T 493's TTI 2" headers but the only way mine would have worked is if I cut the downtube off.

I just wish the borgeson box was out on the market when I did my swap. I'm totally happy with my FF stage 3 (I actually hated it when I first got it but now I love it) but I do wish I could add the quicker ratio arms.

[myk]

I was definitely looking at the Borgeson unit, but it's twice as much and requires cutting the steering column; that irks me for some reason.  If I can install the FF box and improve the car THAT much then I'll go in that direction...

Myk, look up Bergman auto craft. He sells a coupler adapter so no cutting the column iso involved.

I tried to do the fast ratio arms with my setup and it was not going to happen, idler arm went a good 1" into the header tube. I don't know how big of a difference there is between my TTI 1 3/4" headers and Red 70 R/T 493's TTI 2" headers but the only way mine would have worked is if I cut the downtube off.

I just wish the borgeson box was out on the market when I did my swap. I'm totally happy with my FF stage 3 (I actually hated it when I first got it but now I love it) but I do wish I could add the quicker ratio arms.

Wow thanks for the tip on the adapter; guess that's one less reason to not buy it.

What did you not like about the firm feel box?

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Wow thanks for the tip on the adapter; guess that's one less reason to not buy it.

What did you not like about the firm feel box?

It was just the shock of going from the worn out stock box that could be turned by a light breeze to a stage 3 box which felt like you actually needed some muscle to turn the wheel. That first drive just felt like the steering wheel was 1000 pounds. I also had a 13" steering wheel at the time so that didn't help any. But after about a week of getting used to it I knew it was a good choice.

 

[Kern Dog]

Regarding the clearance:
3/4" may sound close, but it is way more than I needed. The engine lifts on the left side on acceleration which only helps the clearance.
I can't explain why I have more clearance with my 2" headers except that maybe the 1 3/4" set are routed differently?
I talked with Dick Ross at Firm Feel some time ago when I had a  question about the slop in the steering. He was just one of the people that told me that no matter what you do, there will always be someslop in the Mopar power steering unit due to its design.

[myk]

Wow thanks for the tip on the adapter; guess that's one less reason to not buy it.

What did you not like about the firm feel box?

It was just the shock of going from the worn out stock box that could be turned by a light breeze to a stage 3 box which felt like you actually needed some muscle to turn the wheel. That first drive just felt like the steering wheel was 1000 pounds. I also had a 13" steering wheel at the time so that didn't help any. But after about a week of getting used to it I knew it was a good choice.

 

Hmm...I'll be headed down the same road you traveled at some point.  I just installed a 13" steering wheel and now the car feels like it wants to turn ALL of the time; one nudge of the wheel and the car will shift its balance.

Regarding the clearance:
3/4" may sound close, but it is way more than I needed. The engine lifts on the left side on acceleration which only helps the clearance.
I can't explain why I have more clearance with my 2" headers except that maybe the 1 3/4" set are routed differently?
I talked with Dick Ross at Firm Feel some time ago when I had a  question about the slop in the steering. He was just one of the people that told me that no matter what you do, there will always be someslop in the Mopar power steering unit due to its design.

So, is that why people try aftermarket K-members, switching to rack and pinion setups and the like?

[bill440rt]

Another thing to consider if you're keeping the "stock"-style steering system is to upgrade to the larger C-body tie rod ends & sleeves. They are beefier than the B-body/Charger ones, same dimension though. Just thicker.

[Calif240]

Love my stage 3 box... Have hotchkis all around and handling is night and day. Not too stiff for me at all.

[Kern Dog]

I don't buy into the hype of the aftermarket K members and rack steering kits. Of all of them out there, none seem as durable as the factory stuff. Some use unprotected hiem joints that have no place on a street with ruts, potholes or other common obstacles.
Look at the AlterKtion for example: The steering arms connect to the spindles in a strange manner using a 3" spacer in an effort to reduce bump steer. Tell me THAT is an optimal design.
The factory stuff is great but does have a few areas that annoy me: 1)Torsion bars and rear steer make headers a pisser to install. 2) The idler arm design has too much play.

[myk]

Love my stage 3 box... Have hotchkis all around and handling is night and day. Not too stiff for me at all.

Do you have the Hotchkis upper-control arms also?  

I don't buy into the hype of the aftermarket K members and rack steering kits. Of all of them out there, none seem as durable as the factory stuff. Some use unprotected hiem joints that have no place on a street with ruts, potholes or other common obstacles.
Look at the AlterKtion for example: The steering arms connect to the spindles in a strange manner using a 3" spacer in an effort to reduce bump steer. Tell me THAT is an optimal design.
The factory stuff is great but does have a few areas that annoy me: 1)Torsion bars and rear steer make headers a pisser to install. 2) The idler arm design has too much play.

That's my concern as well.  How many of these aftermarket front suspension systems have the strength of solid construction that has been proven with millions of B body's roaming the roads of the world for over 40 years?  ZERO.  I think the factory suspension has its flaws, but so does every other factory suspension system, and with add-on pieces like the Hotchkis ones I think the stock suspension can be brought up to very respectable standards.  Just my  

[myk]

oops

[Kern Dog]

I like the trend of maximizing the factory arrangement with a mix of Mopar and aftermarket stuff.

[twenty mike mike]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 box with fewer than 50 miles that I'll sell for half price. Its firmness is fine, but it's still too loose for me. I got a Borgeson, but it's not much tighter, and it's too light. I'm beginning to think that the slop is because of my Thompson power steering box, because everything in the front end has either been replaced or rebushed.

Edit: Box is sold.

[myk]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 box with fewer than 50 miles that I'll sell for half price. Its firmness is fine, but it's still too loose for me. I got a Borgeson, but it's not much tighter, and it's too light. I'm beginning to think that the slop is because of my Thompson power steering box, because everything in the front end has either been replaced or rebushed.

Not tight enough?  I never thought I'd hear that about the Firm Feel products or the Borgeson for that matter...

[twenty mike mike]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 box with fewer than 50 miles that I'll sell for half price. Its firmness is fine, but it's still too loose for me. I got a Borgeson, but it's not much tighter, and it's too light. I'm beginning to think that the slop is because of my Thompson power steering box, because everything in the front end has either been replaced or rebushed.

Not tight enough?  I never thought I'd hear that about the Firm Feel products or the Borgeson for that matter...

Maybe I just have different expectations than everyone else.  I'd have to drive another car that someone claims is tight to compare.

[myk]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 box with fewer than 50 miles that I'll sell for half price. Its firmness is fine, but it's still too loose for me. I got a Borgeson, but it's not much tighter, and it's too light. I'm beginning to think that the slop is because of my Thompson power steering box, because everything in the front end has either been replaced or rebushed.

Not tight enough?  I never thought I'd hear that about the Firm Feel products or the Borgeson for that matter...

Maybe I just have different expectations than everyone else.   I'd have to drive another car that someone claims is tight to compare.

I'm not doubting your experience, rather I'm trying to understand your feel of the systems because I'm trying to decide on which system to buy.  Everyone's opinion, including yours, is valuable to me and is helping in my research.  On that note, is there another car you you have driven that can compare to what you've experienced with the Firm Feel and the Borgeson units?  

[twenty mike mike]

I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 box with fewer than 50 miles that I'll sell for half price. Its firmness is fine, but it's still too loose for me. I got a Borgeson, but it's not much tighter, and it's too light. I'm beginning to think that the slop is because of my Thompson power steering box, because everything in the front end has either been replaced or rebushed.

Not tight enough?  I never thought I'd hear that about the Firm Feel products or the Borgeson for that matter...

Maybe I just have different expectations than everyone else.   I'd have to drive another car that someone claims is tight to compare.

I'm not doubting your experience, rather I'm trying to understand your feel of the systems because I'm trying to decide on which system to buy.  Everyone's opinion, including yours, is valuable to me and is helping in my research.  On that note, is there another car you you have driven that can compare to what you've experienced with the Firm Feel and the Borgeson units?  

Sent you a PM.