with all the scammer/car dealers out there, WHO can you really trust ?

[model maker]

When it comes time to purchase your dream car,  OTHER than paying a good, honest vehicle inspector HOW do you find a true, reputable dealer/business that doesn't exist just to rip people off ? with all the halpag/BK crap going on and scammers constantly changing names only to be "caught again" & again, changing their names. What true & honest places are really out there, someone who you can trust when they say they are selling cars that have been "FULLY RESTORED" ? I know a lot of guys have been scammed for tens of thousands of dollars by believing what they have read or been told. When it comes to the term "FULLY RESTORED" Whose definition of "FULLY RESTORED" means " FULLY RESTORED" ?  A seller may THINK what he did counts as fully restored and so advertises as such. When i see cars for sale that claim to be fully restored I look at the pictures to see if there are any issues with panel/bumper alignment. I often see bumpers that sit to high or low to one side and i always look at panel gaps and sloppy work. I just don't understand how someone selling a car as "complete rotissorie restoration" then see misaligned bumpers, uneven panel gaps etc. on the 69 Chargers I look at the fit of the grille and the front & rear valances for uneven gaps. Are there ANY classic car dealers out there that people here have found to be REAL, and who do exceptional restorations and who sell what they claim it to be ? When I see pages of orange general lees out there on places like "AUTABUY.COM, type in 1969 Dodge Charger then see a lot of orange chargers ALL claiming full restoration, all selling for $39,999.00 or $29,999.00 it makes you wonder how many of these skimmed over rust buckets exist. I don't mind paying a premium for a classic car BUT expect it to be what it is represented to be.I guess the regular  repeat crooks & scammers who profit by this somehow manage to stay out of jail or  worse yet,a grave y shear luck or they have connections that get them restarted under a new name. when you are dealing with tens of thousands of dollars and in most cases, someones life savings or close TO that, it is a wonder how these crooks are able to stay around.  WHO CAN YOU TRUST when buying a dream car ?

[The70RT]

You just need to have someone who knows a lot about cars to look at the car. Best deals are from private owners 

[Dino]

Think about this:  How much does it cost to properly restore a Charger?  How much will said restored Charger be worth once finished?

In most cases, the cost of resto will be more, and could be much more, than the value when finished.  Who in his right, and honest, mind would hope to make a profit that way?

It pays off to restore rare and wanted cars that bring six figures and then still I'd never do it again.

[model maker]

That sounds like a lot of work that when you want something done right, do it yourself is so true. After someone puts themselves into a car it must be hard to part with it after ALL of that work & effort. I see places who "offer" fully restored cars & i bet there are more people here that know of dishonest places then there are honest places. I see places like the "VOLO AUTO MUSEUM" that sell cars and i hear they have a pretty good reputation, but then again, all it takes is 1 dishonest salesman to bring a good place down. I see a lot of guys here selling cars and they also offer pictures & posts that document what they say. I don't think if someone here sold a car to another member & it turned out to be a bad car or wasn't what it was claimed to be, the members here would police their own members. When i look in the classic car papers like autabuy, there are a lot of cars that don't come close to what is advertised and then you also chance on buying someone elses nightmare. guys who don't have a clue as to what they are doing oR the ones who do know but cheap out and do as little as they can get away with or cover up. Some guys work harder covering up & hiding flaws that could have been honestly fixed for half the effort they put in trying to hide something.

[skip68]

I'll tell you this much, the Volo museum got a car or two from BK auto.   Total junk.   

YOU DON'T BUY A CAR FROM ANY RESTORATION SHOP PERIOD.   That solves the problem.   

[1974dodgecharger]

I agree.....

In the end sometimes it's best to tackle jobs yo self unless u r pathetically rich and bored go ahead and pay someone

I'll tell you this much, the Volo museum got a car or two from BK auto.   Total junk.   

YOU DON'T BUY A CAR FROM ANY RESTORATION SHOP PERIOD.   That solves the problem.   

[model maker]

Skip, Volo go scammed by BK ? what happened with the cars ?

[The70RT]

I'll tell you this much, the Volo museum got a car or two from BK auto.   Total junk.   

YOU DON'T BUY A CAR FROM ANY RESTORATION SHOP PERIOD.   That solves the problem.   

Yep, like I said a private owner.

[skip68]

I don't know if Volo got scammed by BK or not.  They did say they bought a few cars off eBay that BK built and were selling.   I'm guessing they did get scammed but just passed the junk onto someone else.  

[stripedelete]

An established provenance would help separate the wheat from the chaff.  I would think a smart, honest, dealer or individual, looking for the long dollar,  would do their best provide the chain of ownership.  With that chain you could talk to past owners and or restoration/ body shops.  Steering clear of the cars/dealers that don't' have it (or won't let you contact) should increase your odds of finding a good car.  

If it had a good chain of ownership you will find the past owners open to your inquiries. We do it all the time with antique boats.

[Cooter]

Rule of thumb....If it sounds to good to be true, it usually is...

Look at how much John Balow of MCR in Wis. Gets for a "lowball" resto, then go look online for a "Fully restored" car's asking price....


THEN, use your better judgement. Common sense plays a HUGE role here. If one wouldn't invest $50K-$100K in an R/T Clone/Real R/T PROPERLY DONE the way YOU would expect, or saw done here, then how the hell does one expect he/she's gonna buy it already done for Way less? Nobody (Even in this economy) is gonna take it up the wazzoo that hard...

The only way your gonna make money on these cars is by flipping. We've seen it time and time again. Flip and make money, restore and lose big time, IF that's the only motivation. Of course, there's the Inevidable "Flash in the pan" car that turns out to be the smokin' deal of the century, but right after getting that smoking deal, it usually gets "flipped" for what they usually go for to make money, so no more deal even for the smoking deal finder.
Don't know bout you, but I'd expect one would stand a better chance of hitting the lottery than finding this car.

I feel this will give the push for more and more Fans of these cars to get in and get dirty. Then you wouldnt' see them traded quite so often. Hard times SUCK for anybody, but they tend to suck less for the Buyers of "Done cars" because it would seem it's easier to let go of a car you haven't got 10 years of your life tied up in.

IMO, too many have gotten used to watching others build "Perfection" cars and try to just "Buy" that level of perfection. You want it "perfect"? Well, last time I checked Perfection cost HUGE money. By this I mean, Every panel fit BETTER than stock. Every "I" dotted and "T" crossed.
There is one guy building a Christine as we speak. He has over $35K tied up in it already, and it isn't finished by a long shot..Body was just set on the frame. Of course, you can shave in the reflection on the frame and suspension, but IMO, that car is "over restored" and "perfect"..One I personally couldn't drive and enjoy.

[polywideblock]

don't know about who you can trust, but investing in having a professional "inspector" pays time after time ! they have saved me from buying a couple of "bondo buckets" from " professional resto shops" with pages of recommendations for them on web,  won't name names   $400 well spent  when you consider the alternative(get car after waiting months and spending 1000's  for shipping only to find rust free is not what it is)can recommend http://www.classiccarguy.com/appraisals.asp used them for years very good .Phil

[model maker]

Thanks Phil, i will save this link.

[hatersaurusrex]

Are there any websites out there that clearly document what to look for when buying a particular style of muscle car?

[The70RT]

Are there any websites out there that clearly document what to look for when buying a particular style of muscle car?

No probably not, for Chargers it would be here. Mainly you need to check for hidden rust & or structural damage. You can buy a bondo tester, it goes on and on. You just need someone that knows cars to look at it. You just got to be a car guy like a lot of us are on here....just ask away. You can post the car and show pictures to get a general price or opinions but that's not gonna be enough without someone really looking it over in person.

[polywideblock]

one place i know a lot of flippers miss is the trans crossmember not just chargers all mopars  they rust out from inside out or is that up side down, anyway look at(feel) top side for crap etc if car presents as extra clean but under here is crappy your looking at a quickie resto/repaint not a proper tear it down resto

[1970Moparmann]

IF, you do buy a car from a dealer (on consignment) and there are no pictures from the restoration, if there was one, walk away. 

The only "dealer" that I personally have trusted in the past is Midwest Car Exchange.  Mark has sold me a car, and sold two cars for me.  Good guy and a HUGE Mopar nut and collector.

I personally think that knowledge is power.  If you know what to look for, look at dealer cars.  BUT, be careful.  There are a lot of private sellers that are scammers also. 

[model maker]

I would most likely buy a car from a member here if they wanted to sell. At least here the cars have a history available in all the posts here. I am deciding on exactly what i want and have a few choices. it will be time soon to do this so i am looking at the "cars for sale" section.

[The70RT]

I would most likely buy a car from a member here if they wanted to sell. At least here the cars have a history available in all the posts here. I am deciding on exactly what i want and have a few choices. it will be time soon to do this so i am looking at the "cars for sale" section.

That's probably a good thing. I'm sure you will have someone look at it unless you you can and know what to look for. There was a polished turd that was sold by a member to another member. It looked good to go and he ended up completely restoring it because of a shoddy resto. 

[model maker]

So a member here screwed over another member ? what happened in the end ?

[The70RT]

So a member here screwed over another member ? what happened in the end ?

He ended up dumping 50k in the car after paying 25-30k for the it.

[69 OUR/TEA]

Most flippers/dealers already beat you to the punch and got the deal,so what you are seeing is their markup !!!! So IMO,you should have been scanning every poss site/forum/craigslist,etc daily and be ready to act when the car of your dreams comes up for sale.
Most people don't have a keen eye for quality and is why these collector car dealers stay alive,and most of their clients have a combination of money and no time to do the search on their own,or be part of a forum like this one to get strong education of the hobby,so what they buy they think is the norm.And don't get me wrong,most are happy,as long as the car runs/drives,they go out and enjoy life.
So for myself,being that I can do the biggest and most expensive part of the resto,the paint/body,I DON"T buy a car "restored",and primarily going back to some statements,you don't know whats under all that glitter and shine.
Yes,most of the time if you are going to do a restore and sell,you most likely will be in the negative,unless it's a big dollar car,$100k up.The labor rate is the same if we were doing a 318 charger as compared to a Hemi charger.
I am and always have been beleived that the quality should reflect the price of the car,but most don't ,therefore think that the $50,60,70k cars are out of control in the price range,but don't realize to get a car to ,and I will say,perfection,does in fact cost that much money by the time you are done,and then some.
To me,there is no inbetween,it's either a full project or a restored car,because a driver quality car is going to lead you up to work to be done,and at that point,to go to perfection level,it is going to be a full resto.Now after you just spent $30-35k on a driver,and eventually realize that it does'nt make you happy and want it nicer,you should have spent $10-15 on the project car,and saved the difference to  apply to the full resto.

[Highway by the Sea]

I get recommendations from ONLY my best and most trusted friends who have had good dealings with such people.  Then I know I am not going to get "taken for a ride" (except in the car they fix).  That is how I got my truck fixed at a fraction of the cost.  My mechanic only charges $38 an hour or sometimes by the job.  He is very reliable and honest, and was recommended by my best friend who was recommended by another of HIS friends.  I also check out everything I buy thoroughly with my trusted mechanic before money changes hands.

[Cooter]

Most flippers/dealers already beat you to the punch and got the deal,so what you are seeing is their markup !!!! So IMO,you should have been scanning every poss site/forum/craigslist,etc daily and be ready to act when the car of your dreams comes up for sale.
Most people don't have a keen eye for quality and is why these collector car dealers stay alive,and most of their clients have a combination of money and no time to do the search on their own,or be part of a forum like this one to get strong education of the hobby,so what they buy they think is the norm.And don't get me wrong,most are happy,as long as the car runs/drives,they go out and enjoy life.
So for myself,being that I can do the biggest and most expensive part of the resto,the paint/body,I DON"T buy a car "restored",and primarily going back to some statements,you don't know whats under all that glitter and shine.
Yes,most of the time if you are going to do a restore and sell,you most likely will be in the negative,unless it's a big dollar car,$100k up.The labor rate is the same if we were doing a 318 charger as compared to a Hemi charger.
I am and always have been beleived that the quality should reflect the price of the car,but most don't ,therefore think that the $50,60,70k cars are out of control in the price range,but don't realize to get a car to ,and I will say,perfection,does in fact cost that much money by the time you are done,and then some.
To me,there is no inbetween,it's either a full project or a restored car,because a driver quality car is going to lead you up to work to be done,and at that point,to go to perfection level,it is going to be a full resto.Now after you just spent $30-35k on a driver,and eventually realize that it does'nt make you happy and want it nicer,you should have spent $10-15 on the project car,and saved the difference to  apply to the full resto.

Well said.

[1974dodgecharger]

So a member here screwed over another member ? what happened in the end ?

some members sign up and they are FLIPPERS or SCAMMERS.  they post awhile and then they slowly ask you for appraisal for a car they just 'bought' but in acutallity they had it for awhile and couldnt sell it.  What they are doing is un-intentionally trying to others to buy it and promote their product.  its done alot here in the forum and you will see it the longer you stay.

Once you call them on it they will leave.......

[model maker]

Someone should develope a sure fire way to spot & deal with these repeat offenders once & for all. How do these bk/ halpag characters keep getting away with ripping people off and just changing their names to do it all over again ? dealing with motor vehicles and breaking the law should, I think, have some harsh consenquences in order to prevent them from being in the car selling business or even touching a car that is going to be sold by someone else OR having any kind of relationship for hire . there should also be consenquences for people in the car business who are licensed from having anything to do with convicted thieves who have been caught cheating people. They spend so much time & effort cheating people that it would be easier to just  do business in an honest way but these guys always want to have what others have worked for. Prison sentences should be much more severe for these types.