Muscle Motors or Indy Cylinder

[charlie45]

Which one has a better reputation in your opinion and based on your experiences?

Both seem to be in business for quite a while...

[Ghoste]

Good reputation with both.  Indy can be a little more "impatient" with tech questions but they are also the one that is likely a little more leading edge in stuff.

[Charger-Bodie]

Muscle Motors.

[charlie45]

Thanks for the first responses. Here are the engines that I'm contemplating between:

Muscle Motors - "Street Killer Krate"
I would go with pretty much all the extras/options listed on the bottom of the link (see following)
http://musclemotorsracing.com/engines/street-killer-krate.html

Indy Cylinder - 500" RB Street Wedge (630HP)
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=97379.0;num_replies=2

It appears that the Indy is probably the better engine given that it is a new WP aluminum 440 block. But lets keep in mind, I don't intend to take the car to the track really, and I will use mainly for weekend joy rides and want a lot of low-end grunt. The Muscle Motors Street Killer is just a much better price, and it seems like that engine is just an absolute torque monster...

What do you guys think?

[68X426]

Indy can be a little more "impatient" with tech questions

Ghoste is being very kind. They just don't answer any questions unless you drop serious money with them. And a crate motor does not count as serious.

My experience: you'll get less than zero assistance or service from INDY. Everybody in the building gets a swift kick in the balls first thing in the morning. Then they take it out on the paying customer the rest of the day.

Worst of all, besides horrible attitudes, they will not back up their product. They'll acknowledge that they made mistakes, they'll admit to defects, but they will not back up the product. You've been warned.

Otherwise, they do likely make the best designs in the business. My INDY heads and oil system are bombproof. Many on the forum would recommend you deal with a reseller/authorized INDY dealer if you go with their products.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Muscle Motors...           Indy is a little testy - especially when you call them with a build quality issue. 

[Ghoste]

I actually make it a point to try and liberate one of Indy's catalogs whenever I see them set up at a swap meet because I just know it bugs them to give out catalogs.

[Cooter]

LOVE Indy products...They work most of the time. However, if you are one of the unlucky ones where you have a problem, just don't try to get anything done through Indy.


My vote? Muscle Motors, they are still fairly hungry and take somewhat good care of those who don't have to spend their $25K with them.

[XH29N0G]

Have had good, rapid, and positive responses from Muscle motors recently.  Engine still not in car, but it is a project that is underway.  If for some reason there is a problem, then I will pick up there, but anticipate it will be dealt with reasonably.  Before, during, and after the buil, both Eric and Mike responded promptly to my questions and requests and clarified anything that came up.  I am not a stickler for details and let them do what they thought best with the build.  They completed the work in the timeline they originally gave and are well-run from customer relations standpoint in my opinion.

[charlie45]

Wow! So Indy is that bad in terms of customer service!? Well, they're only doing themselves a disservice in the long-run...

But it seems like they really know what they're doing when it comes to their products and building their engines???

The service issue aside, which engine would you guys go with (see links above)? I just like the fact that their 500 Street Wedge is a brand new MP mega block, which I assume can have a big impact on the durability/reliability of the engine? Of course it costs more, but the difference isn't all that huge when you add up all of the options on the MM Street Killer Krate. Chances that something could wrong with the motor are much higher on the MM package (given that they're using up to 40 year old refurbished block), is that a correct way to interpret it?

Plus Indy uses their own heads, manifold, Eagle crank, Wiseco piston, etc. On the MM you've got stealth heads, RPM Intake, and private label crank/rods/pistons.

What do you guys think?

[cdr]

Wow! So Indy is that bad in terms of customer service!? Well, they're only doing themselves a disservice in the long-run...

But it seems like they really know what they're doing when it comes to their products and building their engines???

The service issue aside, which engine would you guys go with (see links above)? I just like the fact that their 500 Street Wedge is a brand new MP mega block, which I assume can have a big impact on the durability/reliability of the engine? Of course it costs more, but the difference isn't all that huge when you add up all of the options on the MM Street Killer Krate. Chances that something could wrong with the motor are much higher on the MM package (given that they're using up to 40 year old refurbished block), is that a correct way to interpret it?

Plus Indy uses their own heads, manifold, Eagle crank, Wiseco piston, etc. On the MM you've got stealth heads, RPM Intake, and private label crank/rods/pistons.

What do you guys think?

MM can do a new block also!

[Scaregrabber]

There are regular threads on Moparts regarding junk work from Indy. I would not spend any money there or on their products for that matter. When something goes wrong it is never their fault and you are stupid.
There's a lot of great Mopar vendors, better to spend money where someone appreciates you doing so.

Sheldon

[heyoldguy]

We could build you something like this,

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77977.0.html

for about $13,500.

That is carburetor to oil pan and dyno tested.

[Challenger340]

We could build you something like this,

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77977.0.html

for about $13,500.

That is carburetor to oil pan and dyno tested.

IMO,
The above Engine is extremely good value for Money

On another note;
The many responses on this thread are EXACTLY WHY, I am not a Dealer for INDY any more.
I had to take care of my Customers...no matter what kind of crap I recieved from INDY.....it was just the right thing to do.
Nonetheless,
it was just too expensive for me as a Dealer, to continually have to fix/repair the stuff I received from INDY to look after my Customers, with NO RECOURSE from INDY.
I finally dropped them.
I still use their parts, but now I just get the Customer to order it themselves direct, then if it shows up FAWKED, at least I get paid to fix it.
Helluva way to run a business !

[charlie45]

okay, thanks. And thanks Heyoldguy for the offer on the engine. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Btw, any thoughts on "Best Machine" in Michigan? The seem to have a solid reputation from my initial research... Thx

[Mike DC]

 
If I recall correctly the iron MP megablocks weigh like 310 lbs, which is about 80 lbs more than the stock production blocks.  Something to consider if you care much about the car's handling.   

[charlie45]

You guys will think I'm crazy...

actually thinking it might make most sense to go with a crate hemi 528

Will it cost more? yes, of course. But, if I'm already spending that much money it seems to maybe make sense to spend a few grand more on the Hemi, and the re-sale value of the car will be much more afterwards with a Ray Barton 528 Hemi than with a stroked 440. Plus, the RB 528 are all brand new components...

What do you guys think???

[Charger-Bodie]

If you go hemi, go with a TIM Banning at For Hemis Only. You will not find a better customer service. They also build them with all new components. I got mine from TIM and it is incredible. And, it cost a quite a bit less than th or aruzza.

[heyoldguy]

You guys will think I'm crazy...

actually thinking it might make most sense to go with a crate hemi 528

Will it cost more? yes, of course. But, if I'm already spending that much money it seems to maybe make sense to spend a few grand more on the Hemi, and the re-sale value of the car will be much more afterwards with a Ray Barton 528 Hemi than with a stroked 440. Plus, the RB 528 are all brand new components...

What do you guys think???

I'm a wedge man myself. I always figured I could run with any Hemi using the same or less cubic inches.

However.

We are actually REBUILDING a pump gas Indy 528 Hemi right now. Indy Maxx Aluminum block and Indy 426-1 Legend heads. It was built, without great care, by someone else. The owner took a ride and said, "This doesn't run like I think a 528 Hemi should! Can you fix it?"

We've ported the heads and made some piston, rod, camshaft and other internal changes. Also have it now so it won't lose oil pressure at idle. Should have some dyno results in a few weeks.

So I'm saying, I may end up changing my mind about Wedge vs Hemi.

[Ghoste]

I don't think you're crazy at all.  Yes Hemis are more money and yes, a good wedge will beat them but when it comes to wow factor there is no better engine.

[Lennard]

Hemi's are awesome.
636ci Indy Legend 1116 hp.

[charlie45]

I don't think you're crazy at all.  Yes Hemis are more money and yes, a good wedge will beat them but when it comes to wow factor there is no better engine.

Thats exactly it, the "wow factor" is ultimately what drives the re-sale value...

I'm really thinking of the Ray Barton 528 (650hp version, that is more than I will ever need...) Ray Barton is just legendary when it comes to these engines... FHO seem great to based on the research I've done on here, but he does 572s and that would be around 25k according to his initial estimates (more than RB), and 20 is my absolut limit on this project for an engine...

[firefighter3931]

If you decide to go with the big stroker, hemi or wedge (doesn't matter) be prepared to spend several thousand extra for all the support equipment as well. You will need to upgrade the transmission,torque converter or clutch, cooling system, driveshaft/u-joints, chassis/suspension, rear end (Dana 60), exhaust etc....

It gets expensive, trust me I know ! 
 
Something to think about ; having gone from a 535hp 446 to a 720hp 572 stroker i can say that the car was more fun to drive with the smaller motor (on the street). The 446 was no slouch and it could boil the 30in Drag Radials no problem. I could hammer on it anytime and sure it would fry the tires but after 100 feet i would get some traction. With the 572, anything more than 1/2 throttle and it's like i'm on ice....completely out of control and it won't stop spinning until i let off the throttle.

I guess it depends on what you want to do but for practical purposes anything in the 500hp range is about as much as you would want with the limitations of traction on the street. 


Ron

[charger Downunder]

If you decide to go with the big stroker, hemi or wedge (doesn't matter) be prepared to spend several thousand extra for all the support equipment as well. You will need to upgrade the transmission,torque converter or clutch, cooling system, driveshaft/u-joints, chassis/suspension, rear end (Dana 60), exhaust etc....

It gets expensive, trust me I know !  
 
Something to think about ; having gone from a 535hp 446 to a 720hp 572 stroker i can say that the car was more fun to drive with the smaller motor (on the street). The 446 was no slouch and it could boil the 30in Drag Radials no problem. I could hammer on it anytime and sure it would fry the tires but after 100 feet i would get some traction. With the 572, anything more than 1/2 throttle and it's like i'm on ice....completely out of control and it won't stop spinning until i let off the throttle.

I guess it depends on what you want to do but for practical purposes anything in the 500hp range is about as much as you would want with the limitations of traction on the street.  


Ron

Well said Ron.

[Ghoste]

Good advice Ron and one of the things least considered sometimes and yet most important.

[areibel]

One thing I've noticed, you keep mentioning "resale value"?  Dropping huge $$ on any motor isn't exactly going to guarantee a return on investment.  If you want a Hemi, OK, but if it's not in an original Hemi car don't count on getting a dollar for dollar return if you're looking to sell!

[Ghoste]

  X10.  Adding a Crate Hemi does not a Hemi car make.  Just adding the engine does not even automatically make it a Hemi car clone, there are a lot of other special parts needed.  Do this for the love of having a Hemi or you could end up quite disappointed.

[charlie45]

Clearly I'm aware that by putting a crate Hemi in there, doesn't make it compare to an original 426 RT car.

My point is merely that when you are dropping 20-30K in a car like this, you obviously consider what will enhance the "re-sale value" to some extent.

I've done enough car projects to know that you're not going to get your money out of something like this... The question is much more does it make sense to spend a few extra grand on a Hemi 528 versus a 500 Stroker, and would the Hemi hold the value better and make the car more sought after...?

[Cooter]

The problem I've seen at least around here, is once you have that "Hemi" accociated withthe car, then it better haul ass, or it'll hurt.
One guy here bought one of the very first Mopar 528 Hemi's and stated he had the "Fastest car in three counties" in front of me and my buddy and his friend with a little valiant at my buddies shop. Jarod (My buddy) never said a word. Asked him to prove it against the "Little blue car", with a 440.

Long story short, I thought dude with the Hemi in a 1964 Plymouth and a 4-speed, was gonna cry. 3 outta 3 the Blue car crushed the Hemi.

Spinning, missed gears, etc. all play a role, but the "Hemi idiot" didn't take this into consideration when he claimed he had the "Fastest car in three counties" either and got his feelings hurt.

[Ghoste]

Charlie, based on that I think my opinion would be "probably".  The stroker would be so much cheaper to build but the Hemi would certainly make the car more sought after.  As to holding its value better, thats the part where I think probably. (but I'm often wrong)

[JB400]

Here is my if it's worth that.  A hemi is everyone's dream engine; everyone wants one ( maybe not everyone).  It definitely has the "Awe" appeal.  However, someone wanting a charger, while fascinated by the Hemi, could also be intimidated by it and might not even bother looking at your car.  In this case, more people will be looking to buy a 440 powered car because they are more affordable.  Usually, someone looking for a particular option like a Hemi, will concentrate mostly on what is avaible with that particular option.

If it was me floating in your boat, I'd shove a Hemi in it and be happy.  When you do sell it, put the 440 in it and offer the Hemi as an option.  That will broaden your target market and give the next buyer the option.

[cdr]

Here is my if it's worth that.  A hemi is everyone's dream engine; everyone wants one ( maybe not everyone).  It definitely has the "Awe" appeal.  However, someone wanting a charger, while fascinated by the Hemi, could also be intimidated by it and might not even bother looking at your car.  In this case, more people will be looking to buy a 440 powered car because they are more affordable.  Usually, someone looking for a particular option like a Hemi, will concentrate mostly on what is avaible with that particular option.

If it was me floating in your boat, I'd shove a Hemi in it and be happy.  When you do sell it, put the 440 in it and offer the Hemi as an option.  That will broaden your target market and give the next buyer the option.

sure am glad, i'm not everyone   

[Cooter]

Here is my if it's worth that.  A hemi is everyone's dream engine; everyone wants one ( maybe not everyone).  It definitely has the "Awe" appeal.  However, someone wanting a charger, while fascinated by the Hemi, could also be intimidated by it and might not even bother looking at your car.  In this case, more people will be looking to buy a 440 powered car because they are more affordable.  Usually, someone looking for a particular option like a Hemi, will concentrate mostly on what is avaible with that particular option.

If it was me floating in your boat, I'd shove a Hemi in it and be happy.  When you do sell it, put the 440 in it and offer the Hemi as an option.  That will broaden your target market and give the next buyer the option.

sure am glad, i'm not everyone    

Really?
Let's see....
500 C.I. stroker wedge is selling for $13.5K and a 500 C.I. Hemi is selling for $13.5K.....

Which one do you buy for your Charger?

[heyoldguy]

A 500 ci hemi for $13,500? Where? I might buy one. How complete? What power? What components are being use?

According to their website, Muscle Motors will build a 650HP/650TQ, pump gas, 528 hemi for $17,499. By the time you add all the parts to fire it and dyno test it, it comes to something like $20,000. For $20,000 we could build a pump gas wedge that will make 800HP.

Still, if you can get the same quality and price for a hemi as a wedge, the hemi would probably be a better deal.

[cdr]

Here is my if it's worth that.  A hemi is everyone's dream engine; everyone wants one ( maybe not everyone).  It definitely has the "Awe" appeal.  However, someone wanting a charger, while fascinated by the Hemi, could also be intimidated by it and might not even bother looking at your car.  In this case, more people will be looking to buy a 440 powered car because they are more affordable.  Usually, someone looking for a particular option like a Hemi, will concentrate mostly on what is avaible with that particular option.

If it was me floating in your boat, I'd shove a Hemi in it and be happy.  When you do sell it, put the 440 in it and offer the Hemi as an option.  That will broaden your target market and give the next buyer the option.

sure am glad, i'm not everyone    

Really?
Let's see....
500 C.I. stroker wedge is selling for $13.5K and a 500 C.I. Hemi is selling for $13.5K.....

Which one do you buy for your Charger?

the wedge,my point is, a hemi is NOT what i just have to have or even want

[charlie45]

First off:

Guys, thank you all for the great feedback and insights.

This is forum is great, and the passion that you guys all share for these amazing cars really shows here in your pro-active support in providing a newbie like myself great information.

So Thanks

I'm still not decided on what the best route is, but that is what this process is all about: carefully outweighing the different options. Especially if you're dropping 20-30k, you need to be clearly convinced of the best option...

I'm also thinking since I'm in Germany and there's a guy here who runs a top-methanol dragster team and he builds engines on the side (he's close to Munich; http://p-s-r.com/?p=748&lang=en), that maybe I'm just best off ordering the best of the best parts from the states, and having him re-build my block to a 500 stroker. He's built a few Mopar 500 strokers and has gotten positive feedback. Point is: I'm not as mechanically capable as any of you guys on here, and If I have any problems with my engine, I can go right to him and have him take care of it since it he built the engine... That's a service aspect that I would not have with a Muscle Motors, Indy, or Ray Barton engine...   

If this guy builds top-methanol dragster engines, than this should be a pretty safe bet... no? What do you guys think?

[JB400]

If he builds good engines and has a strong reputation, then that is who I would go with.

[Cooter]

Gotta watch those overseas "Mopar guys"...Some like to charge 40 Hours for exhaust installs.

[charlie45]

Gotta watch those overseas "Mopar guys"...Some like to charge 40 Hours for exhaust installs.

I know, I was the one who learned that first-hand with one guy... 

I heard from two other people however that this guy is reasonable and isn't out there to gouge you. He basically he only builds engines on the side and does it because he enjoys doing it...

[charlie45]

If he builds good engines and has a strong reputation, then that is who I would go with.

Well, I don't know about strong reputation. However, I have two people that speak highly of him. I figure that if he primarily builds top-methanol dragster engines, than I would imagine building a 500 stroker is a fairly simple feat for the guy... Its like having a neuro-surgeon do basic stitches...

[R2]

No experience with INDY but most of the comments speak for themselves regarding their reputation.

AVOID Muscle Motors in my opinion.  Personal experience with them,nothing but issues, customer service not good, quality control poor, etc,, again my experience, your results may vary. Go visit their shop someday, and then form your own opinion.

Best Machine does great work, not cheap, but you get what you pay for.  Chuck and Pete do solid work, and customer service is great. They did a motor for me, no issues.

Dwayne Porter is awesome. I would use him without reservation.  Current motor he did runs better than expected. Very reputable.

[charlie45]

Thanks for all the insightful feedback.

I went ahead and ordered a 528 (650hp) Hemi from Ray Barton 

Engine should be ready in a few months... Will keep you posted.

[Bigtree]

Muscle Motors #1 Best bang for the buck.....period. Indy, imo all about the bling.

[mach123]

Maybe be should be MM or 440 source with stealths, hmmmmm

[1974dodgecharger]

whatever happed to the best power per dollar?

[500Jon]

Hi Charlie and All,
You Germans have really got your shit together over there with the Mopar scene!
Here in the UK it seems a bit dull at the moment.
Don't see many peoples here in blighty buying crate 440's or Hemi's LoL!
As a long time Moparman (30 years) I've seen alot of engines.
Always thought that Bigblocks would die out, but 'BIG is still BESTE'.
New vs Old???
I always like old myself, built and raced lots of 440's
But after several trips to Cali and driving Hemi-cars at Juliuses shop,
ITS GOTTA BE A HEMI now LoL
I bought a 69 hemi engine from Julius and an ex Barton 572 hemi from Cannonball Watts here in England.
One for my 69 Charger500 and one for my 71 GTX.
Just gotta get my shit together and finish these cars  

So whats the news on the engine Charlie???

Cheers 500Jon

[War wagon]

I realize the op has bought a hemi but to answer the original post which is better from my experience this past summer I would say muscle motors.
I bought a 572 short block from muscle motors built to spec and purchased a set of indy 1 heads cnc'd from indy.
If I had it to do over I would just buy the heads from one of their authorized distributors rather than indy direct. Great products IMHO just as other have said a royal pita to deal with.
Muscle motors have more than proven themselves IMHO as have others. I originally called FHO for the build since it's real close and my father has already done business with Tim but the wait time too build a 572 wedge short block was at least a year before he could start. LOL HEMI's come first with Mr. Banning 

[1974dodgecharger]

Lucky dudes with hemis...wish I had 20k lying around for a hemi.  I want it for the power dont care if I'm matching or not......

[Charger-Bodie]

Lucky dudes with hemis...wish I had 20k lying around for a hemi.  I want it for the power dont care if I'm matching or not......

I don't really care about the power. I just think it's awesome to open a good and see a HEMI lurking there.

[1974dodgecharger]

Lucky dudes with hemis...wish I had 20k lying around for a hemi.  I want it for the power dont care if I'm matching or not......

I don't really care about the power. I just think it's awesome to open a good and see a HEMI lurking there.

That too i fall in love every time......

[Ghoste]

Same here, wanted one most of my life and don't care that a wedge can be made to work better and cheaper.  Its an impressive engine and a bucket list engine so I see a swap in my future too.

[War wagon]

Same here, wanted one most of my life and don't care that a wedge can be made to work better and cheaper.  Its an impressive engine and a bucket list engine so I see a swap in my future too.

And NOTHING sounds like a well built HEMI watch the heads turn next time your at the track!
The sound is unmistakable