Head scratcher about EPA mileage...

[Troy]

Ok, so I've been researching vehicles again and ran into an interesting question...

new car labels show the EPA rated fuel mileage. Some car models show the mileage with "normal" gas and with E85 (ethanol based). Most cars appear to get about 20% worse mileage on E85 (kinda sucky considering it doesn't actually cost that much less AND it's subsidized to make it that cheap so it ends up costing much more to the consumer in the end).

The EPA is mandating higher and higher mileage ratings at the same time the government is pushing higher and higher ethanol percentages in fuel. Who wins? It will be hard enough to meet the new EPA standards without using garbage fuel. So, once the next round of standards comes out, will there be some sort of concession if the car companies make vehicles that are compatible with (or solely run on) E85?

Troy

[b5blue]

  Lets see....we pay more for corn, corn fed meat AND gas! I think the big corporations that have taken over all the farmers win? Being that we subsidize them and most likely pay them not to grow or grow depending on price per bushel.
  I'm reminded of the 70's when to "clean up emissions" all power was lost and mileage was cut in half.  Let's see I run cleaner by 50% but burn twice as much......who was that good for, OH yea, anyone selling oil!   

[cdr]

it is a big scam on us.

[JB400]

No matter what fuel we use, the EPA will want the cars to get a billion miles per gallon.  We lose either way.  Automobiles are becoming more and more of a luxery than anything anymore.  What they don't see is, when they start getting way out of hand and the price gets to where no one can afford them, people are going to quit driving.  There are other means of transportation available.  But, when people quit driving, tax revenue goes down and the cities go to pot.  Cigarettes and alcohol are a perfect example of this.  The governments are raising taxes on these items to get the revenue back from what they lost when they first raised taxes.


Pretty soon, we'll have a new civil war or revolution and the original Constitution or substitute documents will be put in order.  People are sick of paying these outragous taxes.

[PocketThunder]

No matter what fuel we use, the EPA will want the cars to get a billion miles per gallon.  We lose either way.  Automobiles are becoming more and more of a luxery than anything anymore.  What they don't see is, when they start getting way out of hand and the price gets to where no one can afford them, people are going to quit driving.  There are other means of transportation available.  But, when people quit driving, tax revenue goes down and the cities go to pot.  Cigarettes and alcohol are a perfect example of this.  The governments are raising taxes on these items to get the revenue back from what they lost when they first raised taxes.


Pretty soon, we'll have a new civil war or revolution and the original Constitution or substitute documents will be put in order.  People are sick of paying these outragous taxes.

Then they want to tax you by the mile because they cant get enough revenue out of the gas tax. 

[Mopar Nut]

Why don't they tax us on how much air we breathe and give the money to the people that don't want to work.

[JB400]

Don't give them any ideas, or they will

[RECHRGD]

I agree that the corn syrup gas is a joke.  Since they pulled that one over on us the price of most everything has skyrocketed.  But these bloated, over funded agencies will never be satisfied.  They have to keep raising the bar to continue to justify their existence.  Troy, I think you've started a political thread......

[cdr]

I agree that the corn syrup gas is a joke.  Since they pulled that one over on us the price of most everything has skyrocketed.  But these bloated, over funded agencies will never be satisfied.  They have to keep raising the bar to continue to justify their existence.  Troy, I think you've started a political thread......

[Mike DC]

  
You guys act like people wouldn't complain just as loudly if the govt stopped subsidizing corn so heavily.  All our food prices would go up.


I don't like the corn industry getting this much subsidy either.  But having said that, IMHO there is going to be something making everyone furious no matter which policy these govt agencies choose.  The American public has come to expect a cheap lifestyle just as much as the govt has come to expect a lot of tax money.  Our food, or gasoline, products, utilities, etc.   

[hawkeye]

as a life long farmer, i am against farm subsidies and ethanol.  here is what most people don't know about the usda budget (the agency in charge of farm programs).  http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/usdas-budget-boom/

[cdr]

i think at this time in america you could say BOOGER & it would turn into a political post 

[kab69440]

Ok, so I've been researching vehicles again and ran into an interesting question...

new car labels show the EPA rated fuel mileage. Some car models show the mileage with "normal" gas and with E85 (ethanol based). Most cars appear to get about 20% worse mileage on E85 (kinda sucky considering it doesn't actually cost that much less AND it's subsidized to make it that cheap so it ends up costing much more to the consumer in the end).

The EPA is mandating higher and higher mileage ratings at the same time the government is pushing higher and higher ethanol percentages in fuel. Who wins? It will be hard enough to meet the new EPA standards without using garbage fuel. So, once the next round of standards comes out, will there be some sort of concession if the car companies make vehicles that are compatible with (or solely run on) E85?

Troy

Are you honestly suggesting that logic and/or reason should in any way be married to the actions of a bloated bureaucracy? (Dang, that doesn't look right?)

[bull]

Write your reps in congress. Let them know what you think of this nonsense and ask them to support H.R. 3199.

http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?content=aa_2012Fed4&g=SEMAGA

[Silver R/T]

it is a big scam on us.

^^^^ What he said, big government scam

[JB400]

Is it just me, or does it seem like the government is shooting itself in the foot.  They have the EPA and CAFE set environmental standards. Those standards usually include less pollution and higher gas mileage.  But then, Congress wants to raise taxes on fuel and other use charges.  But, to make these taxes do any good, they have to ask for more pollution and less gas mileage.   




I didn't answer Troys' question like I should have.  The EPA will ask just as much mileage out of ethanol as it does gasoline even though ethanol doesn't get the mileage as gasoline.  What it comes down to, we are headed toward the end of an era.  I don't see the internal combustion engine surviving into the next century.

[Steve P.]

I don't know the answer to any of this, but I fail to see where any of this is a government gone crazy. The government is simply answering public issues. Maybe you feel that things have gotten out of hand, but maybe it is because we have cars that run best on high test and allllllot of it. Every one of us knows that if we could put 1 drop of something special into our fuel tanks that turned our 400 HP motors into 1000HP motors we would do it in a second. Most of us would also like to have 1000HP under the hood and at the same time get 20 or 30 MPG. I certainly would not bitch!!

As for the EPA, well I remember what it was to live in a big city back in the 60's and 70's. Air pollution was terrible. If you aren't about my age or older, you won't know what it is I am talking about.. Just imagine being stuck in traffic behind a really stinking diesel. Then imagine 100 more exhaust pipes all around you pumping out that same crap.... So yes, the EPA has done all of us MUCH NEEDED good.

I also do not understand why we are making fuel from corn. Especially since there are other renewables that grow faster and give more said fuel off than corn. Brazil shows us this. I also don't understand why it's all grown on private farms when the government owns millions of miles of roadways and such that we pay someone to keep cut. Why not turn all of that to sugar cane or switch grass?? They don't even need pesticides used on them!!

As to the fight for mileage, well, all cars are MUCH more efficient today than they were 20 and 30 years ago and many of those much more efficient motors are also higher HP and Tq. motors too! And with far fewer repairs and maintenance. 

Somehow this allllways ends up about the government and how they are screwing us. Well, maybe we are not looking at it with out good glasses. I'm not saying everything is perfect or even on the same block as perfect, but it seams that we always forget where we would be if no one had ever raised a finger or an eyebrow.

So when you guys figure it all out please let me know cause it's all nuts in my book!!

[Cooter]

One can look at the Govt. as the glass is half full........Only to find out the "Glass" is full of Piss.

[JB400]

One can look at the Govt. as the glass is half full........Only to find out the "Glass" is full of Piss.

[rebby]

The EPA will ask just as much mileage out of ethanol as it does gasoline even though ethanol doesn't get the mileage as gasoline.

Yep, just like how they ask for the same pollution standards from diesel as they do from gasoline. They are two very different fuels yet they do not account for the differences (with the exception of vehicle class and fleet standards, of course, neither of those "allowances" help us get very many diesels in smaller vehicles).

[Todd Wilson]

Troy you are exactly on the money!  Who Wins?   The corn producers................We have several ethonol plants in Kansas here. Some are actually shut down. Without the subsidizing from the gubment there would be no ethanol. There are people out there running E85 and have the warm fuzzy feeling that they are green. What they fail to realized it it takes more energy to produce the ethanol then what it returns to us as compared to gasoline. They also fail to realize is it jacks the price up on everything else out there that uses corn...........


Todd

[Dino]

I don't know the answer to any of this, but I fail to see where any of this is a government gone crazy. The government is simply answering public issues. Maybe you feel that things have gotten out of hand, but maybe it is because we have cars that run best on high test and allllllot of it. Every one of us knows that if we could put 1 drop of something special into our fuel tanks that turned our 400 HP motors into 1000HP motors we would do it in a second. Most of us would also like to have 1000HP under the hood and at the same time get 20 or 30 MPG. I certainly would not bitch!!

As for the EPA, well I remember what it was to live in a big city back in the 60's and 70's. Air pollution was terrible. If you aren't about my age or older, you won't know what it is I am talking about.. Just imagine being stuck in traffic behind a really stinking diesel. Then imagine 100 more exhaust pipes all around you pumping out that same crap.... So yes, the EPA has done all of us MUCH NEEDED good.

I also do not understand why we are making fuel from corn. Especially since there are other renewables that grow faster and give more said fuel off than corn. Brazil shows us this. I also don't understand why it's all grown on private farms when the government owns millions of miles of roadways and such that we pay someone to keep cut. Why not turn all of that to sugar cane or switch grass?? They don't even need pesticides used on them!!

As to the fight for mileage, well, all cars are MUCH more efficient today than they were 20 and 30 years ago and many of those much more efficient motors are also higher HP and Tq. motors too! And with far fewer repairs and maintenance. 

Somehow this allllways ends up about the government and how they are screwing us. Well, maybe we are not looking at it with out good glasses. I'm not saying everything is perfect or even on the same block as perfect, but it seams that we always forget where we would be if no one had ever raised a finger or an eyebrow.

So when you guys figure it all out please let me know cause it's all nuts in my book!!

Steve you are making way too much sense.  We don't deal with facts here, you should know that.   

On another note, had to think about you and your comments in a thread a while ago about handicapped parking and the abuse related to it.  A few weeks ago I parked my car on the 2nd level of a parking structure at the college I attend for night classes.  The second level has a direct connection to the science building yet there is only 1 handicap spot.  There are 4 on the ground floor but the access to the building is much harder.  Why they only have one where it counts beats me but anyway...

I parked next to the only handicap spot and see there's an older Chevy parked there, handicap sticker hanging from the rear view mirror.  I'm early so I'm eating a snack in my car when I notice a guy in his 40's walking through the crossover towards the parking.  He seems in a good mood as he has a lot of spring in his step and seems to be whistling.  He gets in the Chevy, takes the hang tag down and literally peels outta there!

Security is on the same floor of the building so I reported the sob.  It takes a special kind of a-hole to be able bodied and take the only handicap spot available.   

I don't know what happened to the guy, but I never saw his car again.

[Cooter]

Just like the new "Urea" "Cat converter" on the new Diesels. When the light on dash comes on for "Perform Re-Gen now", it means you drive at around 30 MPH (Which the computer limits the throttle so you CANNOT drive any faster), for over 1/2 hour.


This is to "Clean" the "Urea" (Yes, it litterally means Urine), filter. Good one Ford/EPA/GOV. Lemme know how this works out for you trying to sell $65K Diesel Trucks....

[mauve66]

Just like the new "Urea" "Cat converter" on the new Diesels. When the light on dash comes on for "Perform Re-Gen now", it means you drive at around 30 MPH (Which the computer limits the throttle so you CANNOT drive any faster), for over 1/2 hour.


This is to "Clean" the "Urea" (Yes, it litterally means Urine), filter. Good one Ford/EPA/GOV. Lemme know how this works out for you trying to sell $65K Diesel Trucks....

so if your on the highway going 60-70 mph suddenly you become a hazard for 30 mins cuase your only able to go 30 mph???  brillant

[Cooter]

Oh and just in case your thinking of "Performing unauthorized" repairs on this "Converter", better think again, as it has a Press. def. sensor on BOTH sides to monitor the factory (IE: Clean) resistance VS Clogged resistance. So it knows when you've removed it or "gutted" it....


Yessir, I'll be the first one in line to buy(Take it up the ass for $65K) one of those tomorrow.