Head scratcher about EPA mileage...

[Steve P.]

Back in the TESTING days of the 70's I could really see people wanting to remove all the very questionable POLLUTION controls. Even GM put Bebe's in the vacuum hose of many EGR valves IN the factory knowing they were junk.. But I really don't see huge improvements in ripping things out today. I don't do this every day anymore, but from what I have seen most Cat.s are much bigger today and build much better and they use to be the BIG POWER ROBBER. I never hear of a cat. plugging today...

[Cooter]

Oh yes, it still happens, but mainly due to People being stupid and driving their cars missing and burning up the converters.

[rebby]

Back in the TESTING days of the 70's I could really see people wanting to remove all the very questionable POLLUTION controls. Even GM put Bebe's in the vacuum hose of many EGR valves IN the factory knowing they were junk.. But I really don't see huge improvements in ripping things out today. I don't do this every day anymore, but from what I have seen most Cat.s are much bigger today and build much better and they use to be the BIG POWER ROBBER. I never hear of a cat. plugging today...

In gas motors yes. In diesel applications EGR is another animal altogether.

[Tilar]

Hasn't it been illegal to modify or disable emission control systems for a very long time already?

Only in certain states, and even then it might only be in certain counties. This one is federal though, not state.

Correction, it's a federal law so, yes, it's always been illegal if you operate the vehicle on public roadways. However, only certain states (or even counties) actually check for compliance. Even in those cases it's almost always a scheduled inspection. People that I know who live in states like this simply delete their emissions "accessories" for day to day driving only to reinstall them for the inspection to get the "pass".

Ok, I'll buy that. I guess I got caught up in that the only emissions thing they tested for in Texas where I was is to be sure the fuel cap sealed good, and that wasn't until just 5 or 6 years ago, but I do know that in places like Dallas and maybe Houston they were more strict.   Back when they started going to unleaded fuel, I had a tool that I could open up the inlet in the fill tube on cars and they still looked factory, but you could get a regular gas nozzle in it.

[Cooter]

Don't know bout other states, but here in Va we have VADOT, and If they stop you while "Daily Driving" without any emissions/part of emissions missing/modified, you face up to $5K in fines alone.

[Steve P.]

They either figure that many people are removing them and pollution is going up or that they can make some big money from ticketing or BOTH!! I would think (BOTH).. Here in Florida, JEB BUSH dropped the FL/DOT barns that use to check every car 1 time per year. He said that FLORIDA doesn't have a pollution issue!! (Yeah, he's another rocket scientist). Like the cars we drive here are different!! The fact is we have a breeze across the state most of the time that just pushes our crap out to sea and visa-verse. So that made all the grey hairs and hot roders happy, but really did nothing to help. The money that was no longer going into the barns was now being added to registrations for vehicles. Once again we have some of the nastiest smoggers on the road and I swear most of the people here have no idea how to tune an engine. The raw fuel being pumped out the pipes of most of the STREET RODS here is pathetic! A tad rich I like. Gas dripping out your tail pipe is STUPID!!!!

A week ago I made the short trip to Home Depot. 3 miles from the house I think. I like to take back roads as it is much more safe here. Most of the short trip I was stuck behind a guy with a early 70's C-10 pick up. NICE PAINT JOB!!!!! Really!!!! But both panels behind the rear wheels were BLACK with soot. WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY obvious!!  I finally passed him to get away from the eye burning shit pipes and while unloading some stuff I was returning into a cart, the guy walks by me and says: So you think that POS is fast, huh.... I looked at him and asked him what he was talking about. He says: You think that hunk of shit Ford can smoke my Chevy?? As he pointed out the SMOG MACHINE in the next isle.. I laughed and told him I thought the truck was nice and whomever painted it did a sweet job. But whom ever TUNED IT had their head a mile up their ass and yes, I would bet I could waste him in a 1/4 mile run.... I then asked if he tried using WD-40 to remove the CARBON off his quarters.....  Well, his foot must have tasted like shit cause he never said another word. Just walked away..

[odcics2]

I agree. Everyone I talked to enjoys their Ecoboost as well.  Ford definitely has a winner there, but I don't see much benefit in the way of cost though.  I'm also looking at parts as well.  None of the turbos that I know of, thier manifolds crack.  Dunno about the Ecoboost, time will tell.

Ecoboost recall: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/ford-recalls-escape-again-new-fusion-1C7378086

I heard they overheat while towing. Obviously, the F-150 truck with Ecoboost is another animal, but sometimes guys tend to load up the truck and drive across the country.....   Will there be some issues here as well as the smaller engine has??    

The way the article reads, sounds like the overheating warps the head, letting coolant squirt on hot parts, then igniting...  

[Troy]

I agree. Everyone I talked to enjoys their Ecoboost as well.  Ford definitely has a winner there, but I don't see much benefit in the way of cost though.  I'm also looking at parts as well.  None of the turbos that I know of, thier manifolds crack.  Dunno about the Ecoboost, time will tell.

Ecoboost recall: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/ford-recalls-escape-again-new-fusion-1C7378086

I heard they overheat while towing. Obviously, the F-150 truck with Ecoboost is another animal, but sometimes guys tend to load up the truck and drive across the country.....   Will there be some issues hear as well as the smaller engine has??   

The way the article reads, sounds like the overheating warps the head, letting coolant squirt on hot parts, then igniting... 

That shares the Ecoboost name but isn't nearly the same engine as the truck.

Since posting earlier I have read a few complaints about the Ecoboost. However, considering the sales volume it's no surprise. I am looking at buying a new truck so I am pretty well informed. The mileage for the Ecoboost is only slightly better than the 5.0 in the trucks, costs $1,900 more, and has more that can go wrong. Ford is giving big incentives on the 2012s (bigger with the 5.0 which makes increases the price disparity) so it makes choosing the Ecoboost a much harder decision - unless you absolutely need all the tow capacity or live in higher elevations.

Troy

[odcics2]

So, the Ecoboost in the F-150 is not a direct injected gas engine with a turbocharger?   I kinda thought that's what Ford meant by the "Eco boost" name.

As you can see, I'm not informed at all about Ford trucks! 

[Cooter]

I'ver said it before and I'll say it again, no small engine is gonna give the power of a larger engine and give you 45 MPG, while towing, with minimal problems. That ecoboost is gonna be coming apart you wait and see. EPA is asking too much from The Boys at Ford(I offer the 6.0 liter Diesel for example). Daily driven? Towing? Go right ahead and be the first to have warranty engines out the ass before trading it off for a good 'ol V8 anyway.

[rebby]

I'ver said it before and I'll say it again, no small engine is gonna give the power of a larger engine and give you 45 MPG, while towing, with minimal problems. That ecoboost is gonna be coming apart you wait and see. EPA is asking too much from The Boys at Ford(I offer the 6.0 liter Diesel for example). Daily driven? Towing? Go right ahead and be the first to have warranty engines out the ass before trading it off for a good 'ol V8 Cummins anyway.

Fixed it for ya. When you want power/mileage in a truck, do away with the spark plugs.

[Troy]

So, the Ecoboost in the F-150 is not a direct injected gas engine with a turbocharger?   I kinda thought that's what Ford meant by the "Eco boost" name.

As you can see, I'm not informed at all about Ford trucks! 

Well, in that case yes. However, it's a V-6 instead of an inline 4 and it has twin intercooled turbochargers. Ecoboost is just a marketing name. Another example of the differences is that the 1.3 liter I4 has the exhaust manifold cast into the head. The technology between them all is similar but I doubt if any of the parts are interchangeable. I couldn't find the exact source of the overheating problems in the 1.6 to see how it compares to the others.

Troy

[Cooter]

I'ver said it before and I'll say it again, no small engine is gonna give the power of a larger engine and give you 45 MPG, while towing, with minimal problems. That ecoboost is gonna be coming apart you wait and see. EPA is asking too much from The Boys at Ford(I offer the 6.0 liter Diesel for example). Daily driven? Towing? Go right ahead and be the first to have warranty engines out the ass before trading it off for a good 'ol GAS V8  anyway.

Fixed it for ya. When you want power/mileage in a truck, do away with the spark plugs.

Fixed it again for you, as them Diesels are terrifiic, until they break. Um yeah, I'm spending $3K for a new Turbo, Rocker boxes, or a block that cracks under any kinda of stress (Read about the 24 Valve Cummins)...You can have 'em, not to even mention the higher Fuel costs.

[rebby]

I'ver said it before and I'll say it again, no small engine is gonna give the power of a larger engine and give you 45 MPG, while towing, with minimal problems. That ecoboost is gonna be coming apart you wait and see. EPA is asking too much from The Boys at Ford(I offer the 6.0 liter Diesel for example). Daily driven? Towing? Go right ahead and be the first to have warranty engines out the ass before trading it off for a good 'ol GAS V8  anyway.

Fixed it for ya. When you want power/mileage in a truck, do away with the spark plugs.

Fixed it again for you, as them Diesels are terrifiic, until they break. Um yeah, I'm spending $3K for a new Turbo, Rocker boxes, or a block that cracks under any kinda of stress (Read about the 24 Valve Cummins)...You can have 'em, not to even mention the higher Fuel costs.

LOL To each their own! I'll stick w/my diesels. Even if it's a Cummins 53. 

[Troy]

I had a 99 Cummins Ram. It was the worst vehicle purchase of my entire life. It was broken more than it was drivable and I was upside down by about $10k by the time I got rid of it. Figures, the guy I sold it to hasn't had a lick of trouble out of it. When it did work right it was awesome! Nearly everyone else seems to think so too so maybe I just had a bad apple? This was one of the experiences that turned me off on ever, ever, dealing with a Chrysler/Dodge dealership. They'll not get another dime from me.

To tie that into my original topic... the newer Cummins have all the EPA modifications. Some diesels are actually qualifying as ULEV. Europe has many more diesel cars than the US. Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons our diesel fuel prices are so high. We can't just make/import more diesel vehicles to offset fuel costs.

Interestingly enough, many small aircraft are only coming with diesel engines these days. Apparently it is either impossible or prohibitively expensive to buy 100LL in many parts of the world. Of course, high torque at low RPM along with fewer moving parts is ideal for aircraft use so it sounds like a good match.

Troy

[odcics2]

So, the Ecoboost in the F-150 is not a direct injected gas engine with a turbocharger?   I kinda thought that's what Ford meant by the "Eco boost" name.

As you can see, I'm not informed at all about Ford trucks! 

Well, in that case yes. However, it's a V-6 instead of an inline 4 and it has twin intercooled turbochargers. Ecoboost is just a marketing name. Another example of the differences is that the 1.3 liter I4 has the exhaust manifold cast into the head. The technology between them all is similar but I doubt if any of the parts are interchangeable. I couldn't find the exact source of the overheating problems in the 1.6 to see how it compares to the others.

Troy

I assumed nothing interchanges, except the basic idea: over-stess the engine when you need power.    
Yeah - I know they test the hell out of them, but customers always come up with ways to really work the engine hard!

I know the 2013 Dodge truck with the 3.6L can get 25+, when driver easy, AND has some good power, without any troublesome turbos.  

I remember clearly that turbos need the oil changed a lot or you get coking and impeller bearing failures.   And there will be some customers that will stretch it between oil changes....   then...    

[Steve P.]

I still wish Ford would have used the Cummins in their light duty trucks when they owned 20% of Cummins.  Made no sense to me that they built their own at any cost or point.

As far as the F-150 with eco-boost, it does cover most needs. If you tow A LOT, it is probably not what you want. No one is forcing the buy on you. Just making some points. As far as I can see at this point I would buy the new 150 with eco-boost to fit my needs... I have an F-250 with V-10 that will tow way more than I will ever need to and it's been a great truck. Longest I have ever owned ANY truck. I have a bigger need for comfort, ride and fuel mileage than towing. I have a total of 3 hours of towing 5000 pounds or more in for this entire year...

[skip68]

I want another 7.3 power stroke for towing.  I'd get 17+mpg towing and have all the power I need.  I've had three Ford turbo's and now have a 454 Suburban.  I love the room but it's a dog towing the 26' camp trailer.     
         I hear the new Dodge diesel mileage is crappy due to EPA..... How is this better for the air?   I'll be more clear with the question......
These are NOT actual numbers but rather examples... 

Say you drive 20 miles per day.  your old Dodge diesel got 20mpg. = 1 gallon of diesel per day.
Now you buy a new Dodge diesel and it gets 14mpg but is cleaner burning.   
You still drive 20 miles a day and are now burning almost 1.5 gallons of diesel per day.  See the problem? 
Your daily drive won't change therefor needing more diesel.  Emissions needs to be based on mpg's not how clean you can make an engine run by choking it down. 

     My guess is the older/better mileage truck is more efficient far as how much pollution is really going into the air.
                   The new truck would have to burn +/- 50% cleaner emissions just to be equal as the older truck. 
                   
Is this even possible to achieve in 3 or 4 model years?      I can see 10% to maybe 20% cleaner emissions over a few model years but that's it.  Again, just example numbers guys but there is truth in this.
                     

[Steve P.]

This is another big question for me as diesels are not even broke in till about 50K miles and for me that's the trucks half life. I just don't drive that many miles anymore. I believe I would drive MUCH MORE if I could afford to, but who the hell can afford to trip anymore??

If the new eco-boost gets 20 mpg I might just travel more as it would be half the cost of travel for me now.

Something I wanted to just remind everyone of: When I was a kid trucks and vans were dirt cheap and most of the light duty trucks had straight 6 engines that got the job done. Some of them were really underpowered for the job they were counted on, but still did the job. Today we want whatever we are driving to be able to tow our homes behind us and in reality not many of us do.  I would drive a little electric shit box if I could be comfortable in it. With my back I cannot get in/out of most (CARS) and cannot even ride in trucks with low seating. (Toyota's Nissan's). Also, I have the family truck. With my father, (89) and still picking up trees and truck loads of top soil and such. My girls and all their kids and our 4 houses that alllllllways need something from home depot, I do the driving and grabbing. They do the loading.....

So still on top of the list is the F-150 Eco-boost.

[skip68]

I thought ALL cars built for sale in the US now had to comply with Ca. EPA emissions.....  I guess I was wrong.  So I'm guessing the truck Troy's looking at probably gets better mileage than a Ca. model?    

[skip68]

Another thing when buying a new truck, stick with tried and proven engines.  Give them a couple years to prove themselves.  I remember when Ford changed the 7.3 for the 6.0.   Smaller motor that pumped out more power and had nothing but problems.   The eco-boost sounds like a great idea but the small mileage and towing ability gain doesn't seem worth the gamble to me.       I seriously question the 20% more efficient thing...

[Troy]

I thought ALL cars built for sale in the US now had to comply with Ca. EPA emissions.....  I guess I was wrong.  So I'm guessing the truck Troy's looking at probably gets better mileage than a Ca. model?    

Dunno about that. With the bigger trucks I think the mileage is affected most by 2WD/4WD, then cab size (regular, extended, crew), then rear gear ratio. Those things also affect the tow capacity - but in the opposite order. The Ecoboost with tow package comes with a 6 speed auto with 2 (or 3?) overdrive gears. I saw something that said 4th was 1.14 but everyone calls 5th and 6th "overdrive". At highway speeds it's only spinning at 1,400-1,600 rpm. You can get an F150 with 3.31, 3.55, 3.73 gears. An extended cab 4x4 with 3.31 gears is rated at 21 highway. I've seen reports of 2WD regular cabs routinely over 26 mpg - but those guys were also driving at 60-65 mph which is totally unrealistic in my world!

The 5.0 in the same trucks gets about 1 mpg less in all the same configurations but has slightly lower tow capacity. It is a Flex Fuel engine, however, no one posts the mpg figures on E85. Assuming it's 20% worse as mentioned earlier, that's as much as 4-5 mpg worse than the Ecoboost (which can't even run on E85). One other thing to note: there are also reports that towing mileage isn't as good on the Ecoboost as some would like to believe because it will "go rich" to cool the exhaust temps under load. That's probably not helping emissions either! Not sure if using higher octane gas would counteract that problem or not (don't know if it's to reduce detonation, to keep from melting other parts, or to keep power up due to the cooler temps).

So, if you're towing more then 5,000-6,000 pounds often it would be a tough choice between the 2 engines but it's probably best to avoid the complexity of the Ecoboost in that case.

Troy

[skip68]

That's what I was thinking.  I searched and found no MPG on the other fuel or towing mpg's.   On paper the f-150 eco-boost looks good.  I think for the guy towing a car trailer now and then it's probably great.  I'm just not sold on the guy that wants to tow his 10,000lb toy hauler every weekend thinking his truck is a tow rig.  I think that would be working it a hard.     I'd love to see some real numbers. 

[Steve P.]

Skip, it's kind of a given that the 150 with eco-boost is not a full time or even close to it type vehicle. For a guy that tows daily or even on a regular basis on weekends the Cummins diesel is by far the best way to go in most cases. Ron, (Firefighter), gets great mileage with his 4-doorHeavy Duty dually. Matter of fact, he gets 2 times the mileage per gallon while he is towing his very tall enclosed car trailer LOADED than I get with ZERO EXTRA WEIGHT in my truck and NOT towing!! So while he's over 21MPG on diesel in a heavier truck and dragging two extra tires and I get 10 empty with much less towing capacity I think there is a problem..

Also, I am not sure of the numbers now, but I believe the new 150 super crew with V-6 Eco-boost has a higher capacity than my 02'F-250 Super Crew with V-10. Both having the same gearing. I have to believe the 250 would win out overall if it were towing daily through all weather, but for my use,,,,,,,,,, !!!!!

So for me it is the consideration of how much longer do I HOPE and KNOCK ON WOOD with my 10 year old truck that is starting to need things and still today holds a KBB value of $10,000 or trade in for what I hope will be another 10 years of worry free and comfortable driving? Sounds great until you figure in the PAYMENTS!!!!! 

[skip68]

OK!  I just read lots of posts on a F-150 site and a F-150 ecoboost site.  Not many guys impressed with fuel mileage.  Seems like most are in the 18mpg range on average.  NOW, towing is bad.  Expect to get 8-9 mpg depending what you're towing.   They all seem impressed and happy with the power.  My overall impression is it's a great truck for light duty work.  Just like you were saying Steve, basically....    These are real numbers from real owners.