Former race car 69 426 500

[nascarxx29]

Apparently a real 69 Hemi 500 raced ,.I dont see the windshield pillars
http://www.moparmax.com/columns/magnante/vii_10-6.html

[Aero426]

Overall, that article is not so hot in the research department.  

Of course it is not a real street Charger 500.    At best, it is a '68 Nichels build updated as a 500, but could be an older chassis reskinned with newer tin.   The lesser funded teams did this all the time and it was relatively easy to do.  This is why there are almost none of the pre-68 cars left.   They were all used up.   

He missed the juicy part of USAC running unrestricted wing cars against NASCAR conventional bodies in the bottom pic.    

[odcics2]

Check out Hartman's (yellow Charger up front) laid back windshield compared to the Petty Plymouth.
Also note that Petty took advantage of the USAC rule allowing a wider front spoiler.

[held1823]

is there sponsorship on the hood of the car directly in front of ramo's, or is it just the engine call outs?

(photo is from dave's link)

[tan top]

 intresting stuff   

am i right in thinking  USCA rules , allowed the Hemi with twin four barrels ? of have i got confused with something else , 

[Aero426]

intresting stuff   

am i right in thinking  USCA rules , allowed the Hemi with twin four barrels ? of have i got confused with something else , 

USAC allowed the Hemi and Boss 429 with single 4bbl, but unrestricted.   

[Aero426]

is there sponsorship on the hood of the car directly in front of ramo's, or is it just the engine call outs?

The blue car with the white hood in front of Ramo is Wally Dallenbach.   It's the Norm Nelson owned #2 car, but running race #11 here.   Norm sat out the '72 season for back surgery.   No sponsorship on the hood, just engine call outs.   That car sat idle for all of the '72 season except for Pocono and maybe MIS due to lack of sponsorship.  

[Mopar John]

Doug,
Who is the third car back on the left? Looks like a number 8?
MJ

[held1823]

that would be sal tovella

[Chargen69]

those guys had to know they were racing history at the time, right?

[held1823]

usac numbers reflected the finishing position from the prior year (i.e. mccluskey's #3 bird during its final year), but was this rule only applicable up to a specified number? sal ran several numbers on his birds, so were they specific to the year and tovella himself in the car, versus another driver?

in a related note, this might be one of the best shots of a race wing car, ever. not sure if it's the same car as above, or if it's his second bird. this is an earlier photo, so could it be the first chassis, whereas the #8 above might be the second one?

[Aero426]

those guys had to know they were racing history at the time, right?

Nope.  The cars were just tools of the trade.     If they bent the race car, they'd fix it or get another one.   When the body was too old, they'd cut it off and put a newer one on to keep racing.   There was very little sentiment towards what we now consider a golden era.   

Ask a race driver about their favorite race car.   The answer will probably be, "the next one I can win a race in." 

It is rare for people to take the time to consider history when they are making it.   

[Aero426]

usac numbers reflected the finishing position from the prior year (i.e. mccluskey's #3 bird during its final year), but was this rule only applicable up to a specified number? sal ran several numbers on his birds, so were they specific to the year and tovella himself in the car, versus another driver?

in a related note, this might be one of the best shots of a race wing car, ever. not sure if it's the same car as above, or if it's his second bird. this is an earlier photo, so could it be the first chassis, whereas the #8 above might be the second one?

This is a Russ Lake shot from Milwaukee in 1970.   One hell of a hit.    It's the same car as the #8.   You can tell by the odd hood pin locations matching on both cars.     The second car from Pocono in '71 was probably his short track Road Runner temporarily converted.  

[held1823]

This is a Russ Lake shot from Milwaukee in 1970.   One hell of a hit.    It's the same car as the #8.   You can tell by the odd hood pin locations matching on both cars.     The second car from Pocono in '71 was probably his short track Road Runner temporarily converted.  

is the #11 here the (#8, #37) superbird, and the #24 the short track car, or do i have it backwards?

and what is up with the numbers? was tovella #37 in 1970, #11 in 1971, and #8 in 1972? i assume #24 was unused during 1971, and thus available for the second pocono car?

i sure can derail a thread, but the race history is the most fascinating thing about these cars. if more than a handful of us actually cared about this old stuff, i'd have gene resurrect the driver history threads i asked him to mothball ages ago.

[Aero426]

I would say (and this is speculation) that the #37, #11, #8 Superbird was likely his pavement car all three years.   Of course there are some possible exceptions where a car might be down for repair and a short track car used.   If you were to ask Sal, he probably would not be able to recall.  Too many race cars, too many years ago.    Someone asked Ernie Derr a similar question recently.   He replied, "Hell Sport, I'm 90 years old.   I don't remember".   

On the car number deal, in USAC, the way it worked was you had your choice of number representing your points finish of the previous year, or any available number.   This probably came from the Champ Car division, where the national champion has the prestige of displaying number 1,  second points finisher number 2, etc.     This seems to confuse people who are accustomed to the NASCAR way of keeping the same number each year.  

Tovella in 1970 ran #37.   He had finished 28th in points in 1969.   So it would seem that he chose the #37 for who knows what reason.  

In 1970, Sal was 11th in points, so he ran #11 in 1971.

In 1971, Sal was 13th in points.   I'll speculate that since #13 was considered bad luck, he did not want it and took #8.    The 8th place  points finisher was Verlin Eaker in the yellow Nichels #99.   Since they ran their traditional #99,  the #8 was available.  

Ramo liked to run #7, or something with a 7 in the number.   So the Superbird through the years was 7, 77 or 47.  

Butch Hartman was the USAC champion four years in a row, but he always kept his traditional #75 and never chose to run the #1.    

[Ghoste]

I never knew that about the numbers.  I kind of like the NASCAR way myself but that USAC method is interesting too, forces you to pay attention to your favorite drivers in an additional way.

[Aero426]

I had mentioned that Butch only ran the #75 on his cars, but my friend Don Moody mentioned that he did place a small #1 next to his name on the roof, which is entirely true.    
Butch won four USAC championships in a row starting in 1971.     He won five races in a row at Milwaukee from July of 73 to July of '74.     Milwaukee was the hub of USAC stock car racing with four races per year.    One of his Chargers is in the IMS Hall of Fame.  Another is at Talladega.    A third car is now painted as the Olympia Beer Charger and is being raced in Europe.

[held1823]

thanks for sharing the info, doug. the depth of it never ceases to amaze.

one of these chargers may well have been hartman's daytona in its previous life.

[held1823]

this shot shows the radical windshield treatment

[Ghoste]

Wow, sure does!

[JB400]

I'm one that enjoys reading this thread.   I think the window treatment actually looks more better than stock.  Can't do that in Nascar now.

[Kowal]

those guys had to know they were racing history at the time, right?

Nope.  The cars were just tools of the trade.     If they bent the race car, they'd fix it or get another one.   When the body was too old, they'd cut it off and put a newer one on to keep racing.   There was very little sentiment towards what we now consider a golden era.   

Ask a race driver about their favorite race car.   The answer will probably be, "the next one I can win a race in." 

It is rare for people to take the time to consider history when they are making it.   

Right.  The cars were just the means to the end.  Remember also that in those days there was no high dollar collector focus around any of this stuff.   

[Ghoste]

And it isn't as though they were factory produced wing cars covnerted for track use, they were just old chassis with updated sheed metal in many cases and newer chassis for the big dollar teams.  If you had a season like Petty in 67 you might get a little sentimental for a car but if you didnt have multiple cars or multiple wins in a single one, there wasn't much money for groceries from sentimentality.

[held1823]

...there wasn't much money for groceries from sentimentality.

true, or the hartman car would have survived in this incarnation.

most photos that i've seen of this car do not have the S & L sponsorship. i presume the truck stop was in the milwaukee area, and offered sponsorship money during races at the local track?

[held1823]

as doug referred to above, this is the eaker car that would have carried the #8 during the 1971 season, had the team not chosen to run their traditional #99

[odcics2]

this shot shows the radical windshield treatment

And it's plainly easy to see why the USAC champ stuck to USAC - that car would have been tossed out it if it showed up for a Nascar race!   

[held1823]

this is the dallenbach car seen in the earlier photo. it's interesting that it ran as #11, which tovella had used on a superbird at the same track the year before. different car, different driver, different team. talk about confusing the casual race fan.

[Aero426]

I don't think the fans of the series found it unusual to see the cars renumbered.   To an extent, you looked forward to the coming of the new season and how the cars would appear.     I do agree the NASCAR way probably makes more sense.

The #11 reflects Norm Nelson's point finish in 1971.   So the car ran that number in 1972.   

Somewhere there has to be some better photos of the #11.   I purchased that photo on Ebay over ten years ago.    Wish I could find more. 

[Mytur Binsdirti]

429 cu in?     

[JB400]

Someone just put the 6 upside down.  Probably a joke

[moparstuart]

Someone just put the 6 upside down.  Probably a joke

nope it was common ford could run 429 cubes  so why not

[JB400]

Someone just put the 6 upside down.  Probably a joke

nope it was common ford could run 429 cubes  so why not

This is a charger. I doubt that they were imbreeding engines in stock cars

[tan top]

 lot of good  pictures & info , guys , love looking at this kind of stuff    never really looked in to mopars running the USAC series before  , think i must do some searches etc 

[moparstuart]

Someone just put the 6 upside down.  Probably a joke

nope it was common ford could run 429 cubes  so why not

This is a charger. I doubt that they were imbreeding engines in stock cars

i never said they were putting ford motors in

[Ghoste]

Someone just put the 6 upside down.  Probably a joke

nope it was common ford could run 429 cubes  so why not

This is a charger. I doubt that they were imbreeding engines in stock cars

It isn't a Ford engine, what he is saying is that they were allowed to run 7 liters of displacement so there are cases of Chrysler vehicles showing a larger displacement callout on the hood, thats all.

[odcics2]

Rule was 430 cubic inches.  A 426 with 3 extra cubes would make a few more ponies, so the theory goes.   

[Aero426]

In addition, if the Fords were displaying 429, the Mopars would not be out done and display "less" for the fans in the stands.   We all know that "more is better".    Not every Mopar car displayed the call outs like this, but quite a few did.   The few race people I have asked about it simply said it was because the limit was 430.    429.999 was legal.  No big deal.