UPDATED- NEW photos of the K&K Daytona at Talladega running 201 mph

[odcics2]

Found an old Speed Sport News that shows Bobby Isaac setting a record at Talladega in the fall of 1970.  I don't know of any other photos of that event.
It appears to be the car that eventually went to Bonneville the following year to set many records on the Salt Flats.
The ground clearance looks correct. What looks odd is the "A" pillars appear to be all molded in and it looks like the side windows are missing the drip rails and the roof drops down over the side glass a little. (if that makes sense)  Basically, like the car that ran Bonneville. Check out the Talladega photos and look at the Bonneville photo.  Opinions?    

[Ghoste]

They do look like the same car.

[held1823]

i know the thread concerns the car at talladega, but this video clip of it at bonneville is just too awesome to not add to the discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdcPSDunrtA

[Indygenerallee]

On the deck!! Love it, makes me want to paint my Daytona red with a white wing with a big ol' black lightning bolt on the upright!!  That video is great I have seen it several times!!! does not get old!!

[odcics2]

i know the thread concerns the car at talladega, but this video clip of it at bonneville is just too awesome to not add to the discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdcPSDunrtA

You know that on aerowarriors, you can download that clip. Better quality, too! 

[Mike DC]

             
I think the whole front end of that #71 car in the 'Dega pic is drooped down some.  

Look at the hood/fender gap line, and how "curved" it looks (on the #71) at this angle.  


stock:

[Aero426]

The race fenders evolved over time and were massaged more and more during 1970.    Compare the Isaac record car to the show car #6 Daytona which looks much more close to stock. 

[JB400]

On the racecars, they cut out some of the firewall to lower the front end down to get the rake effect.

[Aero426]

On the racecars, they cut out some of the firewall to lower the front end down to get the rake effect.

The firewall below the cowl panel is completely fabricated and shares nothing with the street car.   The entire outer body in some situations was detached from the rest of the unibody, then re-positioned for optimum aero.  

[tan top]

Found an old Speed Sport News that shows Bobby Isaac setting a record at Talladega in the fall of 1970.  I don't know of any other photos of that event.
It appears to be the car that eventually went to Bonneville the following year to set many records on the Salt Flats.
The ground clearance looks correct. What looks odd is the "A" pillars appear to be all molded in and it looks like the side windows are missing the drip rails and the roof drops down over the side glass a little. (if that makes sense)  Basically, like the car that ran Bonneville. Check out the Talladega photos and look at the Bonneville photo.  Opinions?     

  good find  , have wondered before if there was any pictures &  news paper coverage  of bobby making that run

great stuff thanks for posting 

[odcics2]

On the racecars, they cut out some of the firewall to lower the front end down to get the rake effect.

The firewall below the cowl panel is completely fabricated and shares nothing with the street car.   The entire outer body in some situations was detached from the rest of the unibody, then re-positioned for optimum aero.  

Absolutely correct. DC-93 (later known as the 88) was built from Day 1 with the body 1.5 degrees nose down, relative to the chassis. It was a Charger 500, rolling out of Nichels Engineering right before Thanksgiving, 1968.    On Charger 500s, that was the way speedway cars could be constructed from then on.  A short track car would not be modified like that, nor were Plymouths.

Below is a photo during the 200 mph run on March 24th., 1970. Keep in mind the front spoiler is 6.5" from the ground, at rest.  The dry sump pan was 5" off the ground.  Both those numbers were the Nascar legal minimum.  The nose is 'drooped', being at least the second generation front end on the car.

[Aero426]

On your original front clip, were the fenders pie cut in the wheel opening? Or was flaring out the wheel opening enough to get the droop.   I assume there were some pie cuts.  

[odcics2]

Oddly enough, no pie cuts. Flaring the wheel well was enough to drop the front edge of the fender 2", compared to a production piece.  I can only speak for THIS front end. 
The droop begins over the center line of the front wheels. Add another 18" of cone length and you end up with the 4" droop at the leading edge of the cone.

[Mike DC]

   
It's revealing to compare the center point of the front wheels to the bottom edges of the doors & rockers.  Those front wheels were WAY up into the chassis compared to stock.  It would be a lot more visually obvious if we could see those racers wearing stock production wheels/tires.    

[Aero426]

An astute observation.   About 4". 

[Mike DC]

 
Yeah, I was pretty startled the first time I noticed how different the wheel centerline locations are from stock. 

I was thinking, "WOW, those cars really were nothing like stock!  No wonder people's homebuilt NASCAR replicas never ride low enough to look right."

[Kowal]

I was lucky enough to get a very up close and personal tour of Richard Petty's shop due to some work thing Iwas involved with.

They had a stock Daytona they were restoring in the bay next to one of Richard's cars which was also being restored.   The difference was pretty amazing, almost two completely different designs from the firewall forward, and even around the rest of the car.    Actually pretty amazing what these shops were able to routinely do given a stock piece or template to start with.   Our sense of how the fenders, nosecone and other parts bolted on the car based on the factory pieces bears almost no relationship to how the race shops did it.

[Ghoste]

Did each shop follow its own idea or did they stick closely to a version recommended by Chrysler?

[Mike DC]

  
In 1960 they were heavily modified production cars.  

By 1970 they were more like custom-built cars made from a pile of stock production parts.  The fact that the unibodes arrived from the factory already spot-welded together was becoming a drawback as much as a benefit.  

[Aero426]

 
I was thinking, "WOW, those cars really were nothing like stock!  No wonder people's homebuilt NASCAR replicas never ride low enough to look right."

People like to wax romantically about the good old days.   But even back in 1970, there wasn't very much "stock" about a stock car.     More than today of course, but it is shocking how little of anything on the mechanical side interchanges with street.      It's true that they started with a unibody and retained the general torsion bar suspension layout, but that is where it stops.   Just about everything was modified, beefed up, or purpose built. 

You guys think the COT was something new?   How about 1966 when Ford tried to race the unibody Fairlane with shock towers.    They quickly wound up ditching the entire unibody forward of the firewall and grafting in the full frame stub of a '65 Galaxie.    Talk about something you couldn't buy on the street!    In my mind, THAT was the first Car of Tomorrow.    Outside of the Mopars, the Galaxie setup became the standard for NASCAR front suspension geometry for three decades.   

[Ghoste]

But at least you could tell the cars apart without relying on a brand decal. 

[Mike DC]

True that. 

But NASCAR never really had a chance of racing truly stock cars.  Even back in the 1940s.  Even if we were willing to put up with slower & more dangerous racing, stock production cars never had the durability to finish a decent length race. 

It's debatable where the ideal compromise is.  But the cars definitely need to be more modified than the fans fantasize about them being.  It's show business.  Selling an illusion. 

[Ghoste]

True that. 

But NASCAR never really had a chance of racing truly stock cars.  Even back in the 1940s.  Even if we were willing to put up with slower & more dangerous racing, stock production cars never had the durability to finish a decent length race. 

It's debatable where the ideal compromise is.  But the cars definitely need to be more modified than the fans fantasize about them being.  It's show business.  Selling an illusion. 

It is for sure, but I wish they wouldn't genericize (is that a word?) the illusion.

[JB400]

I'm one that is more in favor of at least running a stock body.  The only addition should be a rear spoiler and a splitter.  Save the decals for the numbers, sponsors and the lights. I don't care what is underneath the skin:Twocents:

[moparstuart]

I'm one that is more in favor of at least running a stock body.  The only addition should be a rear spoiler and a splitter.  Save the decals for the numbers, sponsors and the lights. I don't care what is underneath the skin:Twocents:

and let them all run their  own destinct  drive trains and actually let fans be loyal to there brands 

[Ghoste]

Otherwise just call it IROC.

[JB400]

Otherwise just call it IROC.

Yes, I know, UROC

[Aero426]

 
In 1960 they were heavily modified production cars.  

By 1970 they were more like custom-built cars made from a pile of stock production parts.  The fact that the unibodes arrived from the factory already spot-welded together was becoming a drawback as much as a benefit.  

Here's a mid-70's shot of the Petty shop showing the modern way of race car building from the platform up.     Note the short-lived '75 Charger which was tested.   

[odcics2]

A far cry from the shops of today.   

[Ghoste]

Or the ones a decade and a bit before that.

[charger490]

here is one

[odcics2]

I'm one that is more in favor of at least running a stock body.  The only addition should be a rear spoiler and a splitter.  Save the decals for the numbers, sponsors and the lights. I don't care what is underneath the skin:Twocents:

and let them all run their  own destinct  drive trains and actually let fans be loyal to there brands 

[odcics2]

here is one

Not really - that's the car that resides at the Talladega Museum.   If you look closely at the photos at the beginning you can see many differences in the body.  The car at the museum appears to be Nascar legal!!! 

[Aero426]

The museum car would be the derelict sitting outside the K & K shop under cover. 

[odcics2]

The K&K ran two four barrel carbs in November, 1970 at the 201 run.

These photos speak for themselves...   See the 2-4 bbl breather under the hood?   

[Aero426]

The K&K ran two four barrel carbs in November, 1970 at the 201 run.

These photos speak for themselves...   See the 2-4 bbl breather under the hood?   

Translation:  The K & K was not legal when it set the record.   

[Mike DC]

At least half the GN cars running in that era weren't legal in some form.  Just a matter of degree.

[Ghoste]

Did they not check them for at least some legality before declaring a record?

[Mike DC]

         
I think it was just impressive that anyone was running 200mph laps on a circle/oval racecourse at all.  The highest ranks of European open-wheel racing wasn't even near that fast at the time.  Going 200mph on land had been Bonneville territory up until then.


The K&K car in those shots wasn't NASCAR legal in the body either.  Check the missing roof gutters/etc and the smoothed A-pillar.

[Aero426]

At least half the GN cars running in that era weren't legal in some form.  Just a matter of degree.

By any definition, an extra carburetor is something of a whopper.

[Aero426]

Did they not check them for at least some legality before declaring a record?

It was a closed course speed record.   Not for any sanctioning body.     Show up, go fast.

Besides, it was too damn cold that day to check anything.     I am surprised they even got the car started.   

[Ghoste]

Ah understood.  What was the temp btw?

[Aero426]

Ah understood.  What was the temp btw?

I think it was quoted as being 18 degrees that morning.   Not sure what it was at the time they ran.

[odcics2]

States "near freezing" temps in the article.   34 maybe??   

Yeah, it would be very difficult to get it started with one carb, let alone a pair!!   

[Aero426]

Cold blooded under the best of circumstances.   They are tough to start below 50 degrees.   

[tan top]

  more good pictures  , thanks for sharing  
  not wanting to hijack this thread ,  been looking for that picture that was posted on here a while back , with think it was  three # 71 daytonas lined up  out side K& Ks shop  , wonder what happened to the other Daytona chassis ?

[Aero426]

If you start working backwards,  one car remains, which is the one that did the promo work for K & K in 1971-72, then put out back and later restored.  

The Bonneville car (based on a story told by someone who saw it in sad shape) rusted away FAST after the trip to the salt.    

Another short track car went to the Louisville area around 1971.

That leaves two cars.    It is likely a couple of cars got rebodied and reworked for 1971 and the limited schedule the team ran from there on out.    

The photo also assumes  there are no other cars in the shop.   This is the second K & K shop which was rented from the Nichels & Goldsmith Safety Center  (The other K & K shop was a short distance away near Harry Hyde's home.)    I don't think any other team had as many cars in their inventory as K & K.     Harry Lee Hyde said they had "four or five cars,  but not all were ready to run at the same time".

[odcics2]

At least half the GN cars running in that era weren't legal in some form.  Just a matter of degree.

By any definition, an extra carburetor is something of a whopper.

The article in the paper noted the car was NASCAR legal, except for side glass and no restrictor plate on the carb. 
It was a Nascar sanctioned run, using their timing equipment. 

[odcics2]

If you start working backwards,  one car remains, which is the one that did the promo work for K & K in 1971-72, then put out back and later restored.  

The Bonneville car (based on a story told by someone who saw it in sad shape) rusted away FAST after the trip to the salt.    

Another short track car went to the Louisville area around 1971.

That leaves two cars.    It is likely a couple of cars got rebodied and reworked for 1971 and the limited schedule the team ran from there on out.    

The photo also assumes  there are no other cars in the shop.   This is the second K & K shop which was rented from the Nichels & Goldsmith Safety Center  (The other K & K shop was a short distance away near Harry Hyde's home.)    I don't think any other team had as many cars in their inventory as K & K.     Harry Lee Hyde said they had "four or five cars,  but not all were ready to run at the same time".

In the photo the 201 car is not present. Also, the 201 car is the same one that ran Bonneville the following September. The rear window was flushed out for that run. The rest of the body mods remained the same. ("A" Pillars, no drip rails, 'lower' fender scoops)
If you look at the truck on the left, it's the one that was at the 201 run!!  

It says: "Grand National Champion" above the word DODGE.
That dates the photo to after the 1970 season, at least.

[odcics2]

dual holley breather photos.

[Indygenerallee]

Sweet piece!

[Aero426]

The oval element is quite a bit larger than the Hemi and Six Pack production pieces.   They do not interchange.

[tan top]

If you start working backwards,  one car remains, which is the one that did the promo work for K & K in 1971-72, then put out back and later restored.   

The Bonneville car (based on a story told by someone who saw it in sad shape) rusted away FAST after the trip to the salt.     

Another short track car went to the Louisville area around 1971.

That leaves two cars.    It is likely a couple of cars got rebodied and reworked for 1971 and the limited schedule the team ran from there on out.     

The photo also assumes  there are no other cars in the shop.   This is the second K & K shop which was rented from the Nichels & Goldsmith Safety Center  (The other K & K shop was a short distance away near Harry Hyde's home.)    I don't think any other team had as many cars in their inventory as K & K.     Harry Lee Hyde said they had "four or five cars,  but not all were ready to run at the same time".

yes  that's the picture I was thinking  of  ,  thanks for sharing the information , interesting stuff 

was the low speed  #71 car  ,  ever used in a race , before it was made to look like the   #88 test car ,

[Aero426]

yes  that's the picture I was thinking  of  ,  thanks for sharing the information , interesting stuff  

was the low speed  #71 car  ,  ever used in a race , before it was made to look like the   #88 test car ,

Yes, the 1968 Firecracker 400 at Daytona.  It was built especially for that race.  

[odcics2]

yes  that's the picture I was thinking  of  ,  thanks for sharing the information , interesting stuff  

was the low speed  #71 car  ,  ever used in a race , before it was made to look like the   #88 test car ,

Yes, the 1968 Firecracker 400 at Daytona.  It was built especially for that race.  

And, there were 3 others: the #22 Plymouth, the #6 Dodge and the #3 Dodge, that were also built for that race.

All 4 were caught being too low. They were allowed to race with the front raised up higher.   That negated any advantage for
being built lower.  Nascar told Chrysler to never bring them back, hence the red #71 being sent to Chelsea for use.

No idea what happened to the other three cars.       

[tan top]

yes  that's the picture I was thinking  of  ,  thanks for sharing the information , interesting stuff  

was the low speed  #71 car  ,  ever used in a race , before it was made to look like the   #88 test car ,

Yes, the 1968 Firecracker 400 at Daytona.  It was built especially for that race.  

And, there were 3 others: the #22 Plymouth, the #6 Dodge and the #3 Dodge, that were also built for that race.

All 4 were caught being too low. They were allowed to race with the front raised up higher.   That negated any advantage for
being built lower.  Nascar told Chrysler to never bring them back, hence the red #71 being sent to Chelsea for use.

No idea what happened to the other three cars.       

yes I remember something , about a 68 charger being too low  ,  called the 2 by 2 car  I think ??

thanks  for info Guys !! appreciated 

[Mike DC]

And, there were 3 others: the #22 Plymouth, the #6 Dodge and the #3 Dodge, that were also built for that race.

All 4 were caught being too low. They were allowed to race with the front raised up higher.   That negated any advantage for
being built lower.  Nascar told Chrysler to never bring them back, hence the red #71 being sent to Chelsea for use.

No idea what happened to the other three cars.  

So were those four "2x2" cars the only ones where the roof/sides of the body was unzipped & re-mounted lower on the undercarriage?  

I was under the impression that the body channeling (as opposed to just trimming the bottoms of the subframe rails up closer to the floorpans) was standard procedure (on at least the superspeedway cars) by 1968-1970 or so.  They always talk about having the bodies raked a few degrees on the chassis, if not also lowered too.
                       
             

[Aero426]

They had played with the position of the bodies on the early season 68's to begin with, and had gotten away with it (Ford too).   The new design 68 1/2 cars (2 x 2) took another pretty big bite at it.     When they got caught at Daytona, the Chrysler guys were happy to explain to NASCAR how the Fords had been doing it.   Everyone had to raise their cars at Daytona.  

[odcics2]

And, there were 3 others: the #22 Plymouth, the #6 Dodge and the #3 Dodge, that were also built for that race.

All 4 were caught being too low. They were allowed to race with the front raised up higher.   That negated any advantage for
being built lower.  Nascar told Chrysler to never bring them back, hence the red #71 being sent to Chelsea for use.

No idea what happened to the other three cars.  

So were those four "2x2" cars the only ones where the roof/sides of the body was unzipped & re-mounted lower on the undercarriage?  

I was under the impression that the body channeling (as opposed to just trimming the bottoms of the subframe rails up closer to the floorpans) was standard procedure (on at least the superspeedway cars) by 1968-1970 or so.  They always talk about having the bodies raked a few degrees on the chassis, if not also lowered too.
                       
             

I can only speak for DC-93 (the 88) as far as the body being raked to the chassis: Yes it is, 1.5 degrees to be exact.
John Pointer told me the Charger 500 responded to that positively.  It likened it to making them look wedge-like.
The Plymouths liked to have the total car raked for lowest drag.   This info is for a speedway purpose built car.
Anything for short track would be flat or even lower in back, like the 'real' 1970 K&K short track car.  

The cars were measured behind the driver side front wheel 'frame'.   Minimum was 6.5" track to rail.    Nothing was measured on the pass side or the rear frame rails.   So, it was legal to have that lowered for better short track handling.

I'd like to see a street Charger built like the K&K "lowrider".   
 

[Ghoste]

Is it just lighting and angle or is the 1/4 panel on that car flared out?

[Mike DC]

I can only speak for DC-93 (the 88) as far as the body being raked to the chassis: Yes it is, 1.5 degrees to be exact.
John Pointer told me the Charger 500 responded to that positively.  It likened it to making them look wedge-like.
The Plymouths liked to have the total car raked for lowest drag.   This info is for a speedway purpose built car.
Anything for short track would be flat or even lower in back, like the 'real' 1970 K&K short track car.  

The cars were measured behind the driver side front wheel 'frame'.   Minimum was 6.5" track to rail.    Nothing was measured on the pass side or the rear frame rails.   So, it was legal to have that lowered for better short track handling.

Yeah, they raked the heck out of the Plymouths back then.  That rear window was so bad even in Superbird from.

I'd like to see a street Charger built like the K&K "lowrider".  

I've taken a big interest in Indy's street/NASCAR Daytona project right now because I've wanted to do a similar kind of NASCAR replica for a long time.  Not just the paint & rollcage but actually reworking the whole unibody so it looks right when you squint your eyes from 50 feet away.  Get the wheels that big, get the body sitting that low over them, and still keep real-world streetable ground clearance.  

[Stevearino]

Is it just lighting and angle or is the 1/4 panel on that car flared out?

No it is not the lighting. They did this to all Chargers starting in 68. The lower quarter is flared out and a little down. If you go back an look at almost any pictures of 68-70 Charger race cars you will see this feature.
I tried to get a little of that look in my project. When replacing the lower front quarter I made the piece so that it runs down hill at the rocker from the back of the door to simulate this look a little. I did not pull it out like these guys did though. A lot more work there.

[Ghoste]

Wow, I never really noticed it before.  Thanks Steve.

[Indygenerallee]

Yep, Steve showed it perfectly. Same thing I am doing.

[odcics2]

The idea is to get the air over the tire & quarter panel with minimal disruption.
Less tire visible  in a front view = faster car... 

[Highbanked Hauler]

Yep, Steve showed it perfectly. Same thing I am doing.

   Same here,just haven't decided on how much to push it out.

   SO do  we all show up at Charlotte next year the day after turkey day to do laps  at 100 mph. if they still have it ??

[Indygenerallee]

Al, Im there if #71 is done by then!! (highly doubt it though!!) 

[Highbanked Hauler]

Al, Im there if #71 is done by then!! (highly doubt it though!!) 

  Indy, with the amount of work you have done and the speed you are going you will be ready for Daytona in February.