Lee1 / Car #71

[JB400]

And as long as someone is willing to accept that, the fraudulent cars will continue to be recreated.

Not to skew too far off base and into "Hate on T-bell" arena here, but IMO, it's only "Fraud" if selling as higher priced car than you created.

I will agree with you, but I'm sure ghoste won't.  We've had this discussion what 3 times now?

[JB400]

In that case, it sort of beats the purpose of what Dynacorn has done then, don't it.

Don;t know bout other states, but here, you have to register a "Kit car" in the year it was built. So, no "1968 Shelby GT500" you just bought in 2012. It's now a 2012 that happens to look ALOT like a 1968 Shelby Mustang.

I believe that is how Shelby is passing off his Cobra continuation cars as well.

[Ghoste]

To me the fraud comes in portraying it as the real thing when virtually nothing of the original car remains.  Interestingly, the rebody, recreate, clone, replace all but the id number crowd almost never EVER admit this fact until they are called on it. Even they don't think of it as a restoration or if they do they definitely know how most people feel and how it will affect the value of the car when the facts come out. 

[lukedukem]

this might be a dumb question but, how is that legal. it is a bunch of AMD and the firewall from the original. WTF.
i just got myself all jacked up now. dang it  
luke

It WAS NOT an AMD car. This thing was rebuilt/rebodied LONG before AMD got all that metal out there. Been a while back...Another Car was secured and painted Bronze, then orange just as the show did with the original Lee 1.

Now, about that legal thing.......As far as MY state goes, all you are titling is the original car even if the firewall and dash is all you have left of original car. AMD panels can be welded to it and you can build an entire car around the original Dash/firewall/VIN. It's when you swap all that into another car is where it gets hairy/fuzzy...

got it. that would be like when unique performance got caught putting titles on different cars. now thats illegal, to the max.
luke

[Ghoste]

And as long as someone is willing to accept that, the fraudulent cars will continue to be recreated.

Not to skew too far off base and into "Hate on T-bell" arena here, but IMO, it's only "Fraud" if selling as higher priced car than you created.

I will agree with you, but I'm sure ghoste won't.  We've had this discussion what 3 times now?

Because I have to deal with these recreations as part of my job.  To you its another Charger saved, to me its a fake car that ends up causing problems.

[JB400]

Right now, there's too much grey area on this topic.  I think a bunch of lawmakers and SEMA just need to sit down and give us a bible to go by.  It sure would save us all a lot of headaches and disagreements.  No sense in doing that though when Congress can't even pass a budget.

[JB400]

And as long as someone is willing to accept that, the fraudulent cars will continue to be recreated.

Not to skew too far off base and into "Hate on T-bell" arena here, but IMO, it's only "Fraud" if selling as higher priced car than you created.

I will agree with you, but I'm sure ghoste won't.  We've had this discussion what 3 times now?

Because I have to deal with these recreations as part of my job.  To you its another Charger saved, to me its a fake car that ends up causing problems.

That's where the addage, Buyer Beware comes in to effect.  You do have to do your homework if you want a pedigreed car.

[Cooter]

Can't remember where I saw it now, but what gets me about the "Recreation", or "original" crowd is like this Hemi Road Runner i saw. One pic was of it in a rusty state. Almost NOTHING left. Next picture was of a red/maroon Roadrunner.

Owner put in one helluva lotta time in MAKING and searching bone yards for sheet metal to save his car. I guess, if owner saves a rust bucket that only has the firewall/cowl/VIN left from junkyard parts, it's STILL a "Recreation"??

When the smart money today is simply buy another body from AMD and be done with it.  BOTH still have the original VIN/Cowl/Firewall...One just has all NEW metal, and one has a bunch of patched together junk on it.

I'm mean, damn, how much sheet metal can/has to be replaced before you no longer have your "Original" Hemi Roadrunner?

[JB400]

That, my friend, is the multi million dollar question.  That's my argument on the alleged XP Hemi from Chop Cut Rebuild.

The XP Hemi never changed the vin off of one car and put on another.  Most of it was all new sheetmetal.

[Ghoste]

As a buyer, how much are you willing to pay for the firewall restoration?  The same as the guy buying the time capsule survivor?  It isn't saving the too far gone cars I have a problem with, its the hiding of the fact in an effort to get "all the money".
As for doing your homework, we have a very exclusive clientele who expect us to do that for them.  Thats part of why i get so sick of firewall "restos".

[JB400]

That's our problem, we don't have enough honest people in the business.  But, it's the same in all hobbies I guess.  We'll just have to stay on our toes.

[Cooter]

As for doing your homework, we have a very exclusive clientele who expect us to do that for them.  Thats part of why i get so sick of firewall "restos".

And that there is the real problem. All wanting the holy grail(Most likely for flipper value in a couple years), when they'd prolly be gettin' a better car if someone was working like hell to make a roach of a Hemi car using a brand new body. Damn glad I can't play on their ball field. No need for Expensive Hemi this, or One of 4 Six Pack that.

[Ghoste]

Not too many flippers in my world.  Not in the sense you are thinking of it.

[JB400]

More of just an investment than anything.  They only sell them to make room for something else.

[Cooter]

Again, if it weren't for the rich giving stupid money for these cars back about 10 years ago, we wouldn't even be talking bout "Fraud".....But, since they have the jack......

[Ghoste]

Not necessarily.  Most of the extremely wealthy collectors are just as much car guys as you or I.  Some not of course but most are just as passionate about their collections as we are about our one (or two or five) and they frequently buy with their heart not their head.  It doesn't mean they want to get ripped off, it just means that even though a particular car may not be listed as a bluse chip investment by Keith Martin it may still be something that excites them into ownership.

[JB400]

I will agree with you 110%.  Auctions like Barrett Jackson and Russo Steele might have helped some, but it has hurt the industry as well.  If they didn't televise these auctions like they do, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about it much.   But, everyone's out to make a buck.

[Ghoste]

All they did was bring it to the attention of the general public.  Its been a problem in the collector car hobby for many years.

[Cooter]

Then, why must they have that one-of-2 Hemi Wing car?? If they are true car guys as you claim, they'd build one from a clapped out Sport Satellie and spend their money wisely when they have to BUILD it. No real way to get taken if you are building a car and know EXACTLY what you have in it right?


Instead, these rich people buy cars "With their heart" (I can't afford to even think about something so stupid), then get stuck when they find out they bought that same clapped out Sport Satellite, with a wing on it.

What was that saying again? A fool and his money.....

[JB400]

True, but don't you think more people jumped on the bandwagon since than because of the events?

[JB400]

Unfortunately, these people want a pedigree car.  It the same as a pedigree dog or horse, compared to a mut.  Sure, you can make a mut look like a pedigree, but it's the fact of it being a pedigree is what everyone is after.  They want documentation.  Money is little to no object.

[Ghoste]

If you could afford the best cars would you clone up a clapped out Satellite?  Really?

[Cooter]

True, but don't you think more people jumped on the bandwagon since than because of the events?

Like Ghoste said,  all BJ did was allow even the most stupid of "Car guys" be able to say things like "Well, it's worth a fortune. I just saw one sell last night on BJ"   with a straight face.

15 Years ago, you'd be laughed off the sidewalk if you said something so stupid. But, since we seem to have some kind of fasination with the rich and the stupid ways they spend their money, it has taught even the poorest douche how to try and make a KILLING off cars I was driving before they could stop sh*ttin green.

[Cooter]

If you could afford the best cars would you clone up a clapped out Satellite?  Really?

I'd build my badass cars, Afterall, IMO, true car guys don't give two rats asses about resale value and resale is the only reason you want to be king sh*t on turd Mtn. with a Hemi car. My 500 C.I. wedge would weld your ass to the pavement in your pure stock Hemi Cuda, but my busted Dart ain't worth what that Cuda is now is it?  but that's just me..I'm far from having money, so answering that one is a no go here.

[JB400]

It's all about the pedigree.  They want documentation.  That's where the money is at.