How long will new cars last?

[b5blue]

  With all the sensors, wiring, computer chips and extra fancy gadget do-dads, covered inside and out with plastic parts how long before they just are not worth fixing much less restoring?  The more complex the more likely parts will just not be available for what will malfunction, fail or break.
  Do you see someone restoring what is now a new Challenger, Mustang or Camaro 30-40 years from now? 

[twodko]

Good question. I think the concept of built-in obsolescence is a given with new cars.

[Tilar]

Till they start breaking down or till they are too expensive to repair correctly? Mom has a 2002 or 3 Impala that has an ABS computer out of it and they say it's going to cost $1400 for the damn thing.  Apparently it's an ongoing problem but to get GM to admit to it is impossible.

My newest one is a 2000 Regal. I'll hang onto that one as long as I can.

[Ghoste]

I think the toughest part in the future is going to be dealing with the computers.  We have trouble hacking oem code now imagine trying to make them run when they are 40 years obsolete.  How many have a working Commodore 32?

[Silver R/T]

That's why most people trade in their vehicles and get something newer. They never have anything paid off and wonder how they're so far into debt.

[Aero426]

 
 Do you see someone restoring what is now a new Challenger, Mustang or Camaro 30-40 years from now?  

Too many nice ones will be saved.    

But I get where you are coming from.   The computer controls will probably have to be reverse engineered on the aftermarket.  The 1990's and 2000's Ferrari market is experiencing some of this right now, as the factory washes its hands of things like, say,  climate control parts for those cars - or where the factory solution is cost prohibitive.      

[A383Wing]

How many have a working Commodore 32?

I still got a working Atari computer with the 5.5" floppy disc drive..

we got a 2003 PT...I better last until we die, mainly because we can't afford another new one

Bryan

[Mike DC]

Modern cars are not going to be very restorable in general.  Too much complexity and not enough capacity to rework anything on them.  



 

[Fred]

That's why I'm hanging on to my '84 Ford Bronco. Appart from the fact that I love it,  I do everything (and can fix everything) on that myself. That thing was built to last.

[b5blue]

  I've a XJ Cherokee and they have a big following. On the NAXJA forum I see them struggle with keeping them going. Mine is a simple 2 door 2 wheel drive stick shift with a very basic injection system (RENIX) so it's not real bad but others with 4X4 and the more complex electronics from later years can run into very PIA problems. It's a rugged simple body and chassis but some wiring and sensor issues can shut them down pretty quick.

[Ghoste]

 The 1990's and 2000's Ferrari market is experiencing some of this right now, as the factory washes its hands of things like, say,  climate control parts for those cars - or where the factory solution is cost prohibitive.      

You very very correct on this and it is compounded by their rarity.  It applies to common parts and computer controlled items and modern era Ferrari collectors are beginning to be a little concerned.

[Cooter]

We are already seeing this. Not a Newer Challenger by far, but people love them just the same, but take the Mazda RX7 from the early 90's. Had THREE come in to the shop the other week looking for us to find the obsolete parts that the owners couldn't even find on EvilBay. All still ran great, but Wiper switch breaks- - too bad, part discontinued. Whole cluster goes out and you have no way of monitoring anything? - - Too bad, part discontinued. Basically, cars today are throw away at best. Some just produce 425 HP, but throw aways none the less.


IMO, no newer Challengers will be restored because of this. Sure, there are SOME repop parts for the newer Vettes, but then again, they have their own little "Club", unlike the Challenger folks.

[1974dodgecharger]

We are already seeing this. Not a Newer Challenger by far, but people love them just the same, but take the Mazda RX7 from the early 90's. Had THREE come in to the shop the other week looking for us to find the obsolete parts that the owners couldn't even find on EvilBay. All still ran great, but Wiper switch breaks- - too bad, part discontinued. Whole cluster goes out and you have no way of monitoring anything? - - Too bad, part discontinued. Basically, cars today are throw away at best. Some just produce 425 HP, but throw aways none the less.


IMO, no newer Challengers will be restored because of this. Sure, there are SOME repop parts for the newer Vettes, but then again, they have their own little "Club", unlike the Challenger folks.

as always cooter well said...Cars these days are meant to be disposable and not restored it has to do with MONEY of course. People treat their cars like how people try to buy the newest apple iphone every year and they get in line waiting for it badly and dispose their old stuff away.

cars these days are the same way they want to dispose of them every 4 years, then a 2nd owner gets a 4 year old car that he will keep for 4 to 8 years then the 3rd owner will keep it till it dies on him and then trash it.   Way of the beast......as long as people keep buying the companies will keep releasing new stuff every year to keep people buying their stuff...

though I have to admit there are some guys out there right now who are not driving thir new challenger because they believe the will increasei n value and some belivee they have increased in value by double already. From 40k to 80k they claim thats what its worth right now...with 15miles on the clock...they keep talking about how the old challengers are selling for over 100k and they plan to do the same with the new challenger.

[Cooter]

Anybody who buys a newer Challenger looking to become an instant flipper is a fool IMO. No Mercedes Challenger will ever be worth what the old ones are IMO. They aren't even worth what some of the dumasses are paying/paid for them already. Why would they appreciate? If Obamanation gets it's way, you will be driving an overpriced,  500 HP car that you cannot afford to operate in the near future anyway.

[Ghoste]

Its a time of instant gratification.  I wonder how many young people now will become interested in restoring cars from this time period anyway?  For sure there will be a handful but I can't see most of them getting too misty eyed for their past.

[JB400]

The only real cars really worth restoring that is made today  is the vette, viper, camaro, challenger, mustang, and the exotic cars.  Maybe  a civic,  Outside of those, no one going to pay much attention.  How many people restore a Dodge monaco or Plymouth Fury?

[GOTWING]

With only 1,072 miles on my 2010 R/T Challenger, it will never need restoring! 

[1974dodgecharger]

With only 1,072 miles on my 2010 R/T Challenger, it will never need restoring! 

exactly, but I hope your not of those dudes at mopar meetings where your gonna tell people 'In 5 years my challenger is gonna be worth triple what I got it for because its a unique number plackered car and low miles' blah blah blah blah blah.....

[Mike DC]

                         
"Need every piece in the lower half of the unibody, including the subframe structures?  Sorry, all discontinued and/or cost prohibitive to pay someone else to replace."   

The idea of restoring a car in this environment seems pretty unrealistic too.  But guys do it every day in the musclecar hobby.  Guys don't restore cars because they are trying to keep an older vehicle running in a cost-effective way.  They restore cars because they love them unconditionally.




But even so, there is no way modern cars will get as collectible as the muscle-era stuff has. The latter has about 4 generations of car-guys chasing 1 generation of cars. 

                     
                       

[Ghoste]

I don't think you can compare replacing steel in an old one with some of the hurdles they will encounter with the new stuff.  Time will tell though.

[GOTWING]

74 charger, no not at all, don't care what it's worth never selling it! it's our "date night" car. I usually don't take it to shows, i take the Superbird or something else. Those guys that talk like that are dumb. I have a guy i work with bought a 2 new pontiac solstice's to put away!

[Aero426]

Predicting modern collector car values is like catching lightning in a bottle.    35 years ago, the two seat AMX and Avanti were picked as "can't miss" cars.    Their ship really never came in.

The Solstice and Saturn Sky will probably have some potential over the long run.    I certainly am not an advocate of putting any car away new in the wrapper.    Ask the '78 Pace Car Vette guys how that worked out.    

Cream puff late model Challengers will do well, especially if the retro body goes away soon enough.      Now I am not suggesting they will be worth what some old Challengers are, but they will hold a better than average value.    

[bakerhillpins]

Hard to tell. They have definitely made progress with simplifying maintenance on some cars and simplifying systems over all. Lots more wires though.  I am frankly amazed that our 2004 mini van isn't a giant ball of rust after the 9 yrs of winters it has endured up here in the NE. It actually looks really good underneath.    Our previous 97 sedan rusted out in 12yrs.  Right through the uni body, brake system, oil pan, etc.. The braking system was junk to begin with.

Having parts on hand is a totally different issue though and I agree that it will be the reason so many get junked. Economics is the word folks. The more the car costs the more likely the part will find a supplier though with the collectable Ferrari's. The world has moved from expensive raw materials to expensive labor. At that point it costs more to inventory and manage then they will ever see back from the part. So you obsolete it. Economics.. On the plus side it makes a good economy for the recycling yards no?

 The 1990's and 2000's Ferrari market is experiencing some of this right now, as the factory washes its hands of things like, say,  climate control parts for those cars - or where the factory solution is cost prohibitive.      

You very very correct on this and it is compounded by their rarity.  It applies to common parts and computer controlled items and modern era Ferrari collectors are beginning to be a little concerned.

Interesting opportunity for someone with embedded controls experience.  Now, I just need some extra time and an old Ferrari computer. 

[Ghoste]

You need to start a Ferrari salvage yard for all the little pieces too.  Unfortunately, it isn't that easy to just go throgh town and find derelict cars from the House of teh Prancing Horse to haul off to your yard.

[Aero426]

Here is an excerpt of an interesting article by Mike Sheehan with some bits and pieces of what is happening in the Ferrari world.     You can substitute just about any brand given enough time as similar general problems are relevant regardless of brand.

We continually have older Ferraris in pre-sale or pre-purchase inspection and stay involved in the follow-up work or additional work requested by clients. There isn't a day that goes by without hearing of ongoing parts problems from the many shops we deal with.

Federal law requires all manufacturers to supply replacement parts for 10 years after production ends, but when those 10 years are up, look out. Long lists of computer and electrical components, injection-molded rubber, and plastic body trim parts have already become unobtainable.

Modern Ferraris have Bosch engine management and ABS computers with TRW built airbags, all cross-managing a hoard of Digitek computers and ECUs that talk to the Bosch computers while controlling a/c, heat, door locks, windows, power tops, dash modules, seat controls and so on.

On the emissions front, every manufacturer is required to supply engine and emission system diagnostic computers "at a reasonable cost" to independent shops.

A plug-in computer for a GM or Japanese car starts at $250 and goes to $5,000 for the best model, but the SD2 or SD3 box for the 10-years-or-older Ferrari is out of production.

A used SD2 or SD3 (factory diagnostic tool) will cost $20k plus — if you can find one. A more modern Leonardo unit is available, but even at $25k, it doesn't like to communicate with the earlier cars. Want to use a non-Ferrari diagnostic computer? Sorry, Ferrari uses nonstandard codes that don't translate to standard OBD2 boxes. Simply knowing what to repair or replace can be a nightmare.

The good news is that parts suppliers, such as Ted Rutland of T. Rutland parts, Daniel Pass of Ricambi America or Bill Young at G.T. Car Parts, scour the world looking for discontinued ECUs and light assemblies.

They also work with a whole new cottage industry of computer-literate propeller-heads who patiently disassemble and rebuild discontinued relay and fuse boxes, ECUs, and a/c and heater controls.

Today, an electrical background is as important as a mechanical one to maintain a modern Ferrari. For example, need your 360 or F430 dash backlights repaired? How about your 550, 575, 599 or 612 dash video display repaired? Ferrari only sells a new instrument cluster at $4k to $10k, but Rod Drew at F.A.I. in Costa Mesa, CA, will rebuild yours for under $1k with a one-week turnaround. If you need a complete updated circuit board for your F50, well, that's $15k. And when your discontinued SD2 or SD3 fails, Rod also fixes those.