How long will new cars last?

[b5blue]

  With all the sensors, wiring, computer chips and extra fancy gadget do-dads, covered inside and out with plastic parts how long before they just are not worth fixing much less restoring?  The more complex the more likely parts will just not be available for what will malfunction, fail or break.
  Do you see someone restoring what is now a new Challenger, Mustang or Camaro 30-40 years from now? 

[twodko]

Good question. I think the concept of built-in obsolescence is a given with new cars.

[Tilar]

Till they start breaking down or till they are too expensive to repair correctly? Mom has a 2002 or 3 Impala that has an ABS computer out of it and they say it's going to cost $1400 for the damn thing.  Apparently it's an ongoing problem but to get GM to admit to it is impossible.

My newest one is a 2000 Regal. I'll hang onto that one as long as I can.

[Ghoste]

I think the toughest part in the future is going to be dealing with the computers.  We have trouble hacking oem code now imagine trying to make them run when they are 40 years obsolete.  How many have a working Commodore 32?

[Silver R/T]

That's why most people trade in their vehicles and get something newer. They never have anything paid off and wonder how they're so far into debt.

[Aero426]

 
 Do you see someone restoring what is now a new Challenger, Mustang or Camaro 30-40 years from now?  

Too many nice ones will be saved.    

But I get where you are coming from.   The computer controls will probably have to be reverse engineered on the aftermarket.  The 1990's and 2000's Ferrari market is experiencing some of this right now, as the factory washes its hands of things like, say,  climate control parts for those cars - or where the factory solution is cost prohibitive.      

[A383Wing]

How many have a working Commodore 32?

I still got a working Atari computer with the 5.5" floppy disc drive..

we got a 2003 PT...I better last until we die, mainly because we can't afford another new one

Bryan

[Mike DC]

Modern cars are not going to be very restorable in general.  Too much complexity and not enough capacity to rework anything on them.  



 

[Fred]

That's why I'm hanging on to my '84 Ford Bronco. Appart from the fact that I love it,  I do everything (and can fix everything) on that myself. That thing was built to last.

[b5blue]

  I've a XJ Cherokee and they have a big following. On the NAXJA forum I see them struggle with keeping them going. Mine is a simple 2 door 2 wheel drive stick shift with a very basic injection system (RENIX) so it's not real bad but others with 4X4 and the more complex electronics from later years can run into very PIA problems. It's a rugged simple body and chassis but some wiring and sensor issues can shut them down pretty quick.

[Ghoste]

 The 1990's and 2000's Ferrari market is experiencing some of this right now, as the factory washes its hands of things like, say,  climate control parts for those cars - or where the factory solution is cost prohibitive.      

You very very correct on this and it is compounded by their rarity.  It applies to common parts and computer controlled items and modern era Ferrari collectors are beginning to be a little concerned.

[Cooter]

We are already seeing this. Not a Newer Challenger by far, but people love them just the same, but take the Mazda RX7 from the early 90's. Had THREE come in to the shop the other week looking for us to find the obsolete parts that the owners couldn't even find on EvilBay. All still ran great, but Wiper switch breaks- - too bad, part discontinued. Whole cluster goes out and you have no way of monitoring anything? - - Too bad, part discontinued. Basically, cars today are throw away at best. Some just produce 425 HP, but throw aways none the less.


IMO, no newer Challengers will be restored because of this. Sure, there are SOME repop parts for the newer Vettes, but then again, they have their own little "Club", unlike the Challenger folks.

[1974dodgecharger]

We are already seeing this. Not a Newer Challenger by far, but people love them just the same, but take the Mazda RX7 from the early 90's. Had THREE come in to the shop the other week looking for us to find the obsolete parts that the owners couldn't even find on EvilBay. All still ran great, but Wiper switch breaks- - too bad, part discontinued. Whole cluster goes out and you have no way of monitoring anything? - - Too bad, part discontinued. Basically, cars today are throw away at best. Some just produce 425 HP, but throw aways none the less.


IMO, no newer Challengers will be restored because of this. Sure, there are SOME repop parts for the newer Vettes, but then again, they have their own little "Club", unlike the Challenger folks.

as always cooter well said...Cars these days are meant to be disposable and not restored it has to do with MONEY of course. People treat their cars like how people try to buy the newest apple iphone every year and they get in line waiting for it badly and dispose their old stuff away.

cars these days are the same way they want to dispose of them every 4 years, then a 2nd owner gets a 4 year old car that he will keep for 4 to 8 years then the 3rd owner will keep it till it dies on him and then trash it.   Way of the beast......as long as people keep buying the companies will keep releasing new stuff every year to keep people buying their stuff...

though I have to admit there are some guys out there right now who are not driving thir new challenger because they believe the will increasei n value and some belivee they have increased in value by double already. From 40k to 80k they claim thats what its worth right now...with 15miles on the clock...they keep talking about how the old challengers are selling for over 100k and they plan to do the same with the new challenger.

[Cooter]

Anybody who buys a newer Challenger looking to become an instant flipper is a fool IMO. No Mercedes Challenger will ever be worth what the old ones are IMO. They aren't even worth what some of the dumasses are paying/paid for them already. Why would they appreciate? If Obamanation gets it's way, you will be driving an overpriced,  500 HP car that you cannot afford to operate in the near future anyway.

[Ghoste]

Its a time of instant gratification.  I wonder how many young people now will become interested in restoring cars from this time period anyway?  For sure there will be a handful but I can't see most of them getting too misty eyed for their past.

[JB400]

The only real cars really worth restoring that is made today  is the vette, viper, camaro, challenger, mustang, and the exotic cars.  Maybe  a civic,  Outside of those, no one going to pay much attention.  How many people restore a Dodge monaco or Plymouth Fury?

[GOTWING]

With only 1,072 miles on my 2010 R/T Challenger, it will never need restoring! 

[1974dodgecharger]

With only 1,072 miles on my 2010 R/T Challenger, it will never need restoring! 

exactly, but I hope your not of those dudes at mopar meetings where your gonna tell people 'In 5 years my challenger is gonna be worth triple what I got it for because its a unique number plackered car and low miles' blah blah blah blah blah.....

[Mike DC]

                         
"Need every piece in the lower half of the unibody, including the subframe structures?  Sorry, all discontinued and/or cost prohibitive to pay someone else to replace."   

The idea of restoring a car in this environment seems pretty unrealistic too.  But guys do it every day in the musclecar hobby.  Guys don't restore cars because they are trying to keep an older vehicle running in a cost-effective way.  They restore cars because they love them unconditionally.




But even so, there is no way modern cars will get as collectible as the muscle-era stuff has. The latter has about 4 generations of car-guys chasing 1 generation of cars. 

                     
                       

[Ghoste]

I don't think you can compare replacing steel in an old one with some of the hurdles they will encounter with the new stuff.  Time will tell though.

[GOTWING]

74 charger, no not at all, don't care what it's worth never selling it! it's our "date night" car. I usually don't take it to shows, i take the Superbird or something else. Those guys that talk like that are dumb. I have a guy i work with bought a 2 new pontiac solstice's to put away!

[Aero426]

Predicting modern collector car values is like catching lightning in a bottle.    35 years ago, the two seat AMX and Avanti were picked as "can't miss" cars.    Their ship really never came in.

The Solstice and Saturn Sky will probably have some potential over the long run.    I certainly am not an advocate of putting any car away new in the wrapper.    Ask the '78 Pace Car Vette guys how that worked out.    

Cream puff late model Challengers will do well, especially if the retro body goes away soon enough.      Now I am not suggesting they will be worth what some old Challengers are, but they will hold a better than average value.    

[bakerhillpins]

Hard to tell. They have definitely made progress with simplifying maintenance on some cars and simplifying systems over all. Lots more wires though.  I am frankly amazed that our 2004 mini van isn't a giant ball of rust after the 9 yrs of winters it has endured up here in the NE. It actually looks really good underneath.    Our previous 97 sedan rusted out in 12yrs.  Right through the uni body, brake system, oil pan, etc.. The braking system was junk to begin with.

Having parts on hand is a totally different issue though and I agree that it will be the reason so many get junked. Economics is the word folks. The more the car costs the more likely the part will find a supplier though with the collectable Ferrari's. The world has moved from expensive raw materials to expensive labor. At that point it costs more to inventory and manage then they will ever see back from the part. So you obsolete it. Economics.. On the plus side it makes a good economy for the recycling yards no?

 The 1990's and 2000's Ferrari market is experiencing some of this right now, as the factory washes its hands of things like, say,  climate control parts for those cars - or where the factory solution is cost prohibitive.      

You very very correct on this and it is compounded by their rarity.  It applies to common parts and computer controlled items and modern era Ferrari collectors are beginning to be a little concerned.

Interesting opportunity for someone with embedded controls experience.  Now, I just need some extra time and an old Ferrari computer. 

[Ghoste]

You need to start a Ferrari salvage yard for all the little pieces too.  Unfortunately, it isn't that easy to just go throgh town and find derelict cars from the House of teh Prancing Horse to haul off to your yard.

[Aero426]

Here is an excerpt of an interesting article by Mike Sheehan with some bits and pieces of what is happening in the Ferrari world.     You can substitute just about any brand given enough time as similar general problems are relevant regardless of brand.

We continually have older Ferraris in pre-sale or pre-purchase inspection and stay involved in the follow-up work or additional work requested by clients. There isn't a day that goes by without hearing of ongoing parts problems from the many shops we deal with.

Federal law requires all manufacturers to supply replacement parts for 10 years after production ends, but when those 10 years are up, look out. Long lists of computer and electrical components, injection-molded rubber, and plastic body trim parts have already become unobtainable.

Modern Ferraris have Bosch engine management and ABS computers with TRW built airbags, all cross-managing a hoard of Digitek computers and ECUs that talk to the Bosch computers while controlling a/c, heat, door locks, windows, power tops, dash modules, seat controls and so on.

On the emissions front, every manufacturer is required to supply engine and emission system diagnostic computers "at a reasonable cost" to independent shops.

A plug-in computer for a GM or Japanese car starts at $250 and goes to $5,000 for the best model, but the SD2 or SD3 box for the 10-years-or-older Ferrari is out of production.

A used SD2 or SD3 (factory diagnostic tool) will cost $20k plus — if you can find one. A more modern Leonardo unit is available, but even at $25k, it doesn't like to communicate with the earlier cars. Want to use a non-Ferrari diagnostic computer? Sorry, Ferrari uses nonstandard codes that don't translate to standard OBD2 boxes. Simply knowing what to repair or replace can be a nightmare.

The good news is that parts suppliers, such as Ted Rutland of T. Rutland parts, Daniel Pass of Ricambi America or Bill Young at G.T. Car Parts, scour the world looking for discontinued ECUs and light assemblies.

They also work with a whole new cottage industry of computer-literate propeller-heads who patiently disassemble and rebuild discontinued relay and fuse boxes, ECUs, and a/c and heater controls.

Today, an electrical background is as important as a mechanical one to maintain a modern Ferrari. For example, need your 360 or F430 dash backlights repaired? How about your 550, 575, 599 or 612 dash video display repaired? Ferrari only sells a new instrument cluster at $4k to $10k, but Rod Drew at F.A.I. in Costa Mesa, CA, will rebuild yours for under $1k with a one-week turnaround. If you need a complete updated circuit board for your F50, well, that's $15k. And when your discontinued SD2 or SD3 fails, Rod also fixes those.

[Ghoste]

So there is hope.

[bakerhillpins]

You need to start a Ferrari salvage yard for all the little pieces too.  Unfortunately, it isn't that easy to just go throgh town and find derelict cars from the House of teh Prancing Horse to haul off to your yard.

Yea, well, that's where the  came into play.

Here is an excerpt of an interesting article by Mike Sheehan with some bits and pieces of what is happening in the Ferrari world.     You can substitute just about any brand given enough time as similar general problems are relevant regardless of brand.

Yea, this kinda reverse engineering stuff is what I do quite frequently as a paid gig. Too bad I don't have any spare time.    I'd be rich... 

[Mytur Binsdirti]

I bought my first '69 Charger in 1975 for $750.00 with 65,000 on the clock. The 318 ran well, but every panel has rust & holes in it, the exhaust was rusted, the front seats were ripped pretty badly, water leaked into the trunk & onto the passenger compartment floor. Today, you really don't see 6 year old cars with these issues any longer.

[JB400]

I bought my first '69 Charger in 1975 for $750.00 with 65,000 on the clock. The 318 ran well, but every panel has rust & holes in it, the exhaust was rusted, the front seats were ripped pretty badly, water leaked into the trunk & onto the passenger compartment floor. Today, you really don't see 6 year old cars with these issues any longer.

You must not be looking than

[Ghoste]

No kidding, come to southeast Michigan.

[A383Wing]

I bought my first '69 Charger in 1975 for $750.00 with 65,000 on the clock. The 318 ran well, but every panel has rust & holes in it, the exhaust was rusted, the front seats were ripped pretty badly, water leaked into the trunk & onto the passenger compartment floor. Today, you really don't see 6 year old cars with these issues any longer.

that's because it's all covered up with bondo

Bryan

[Mike DC]

The typical 2006 model does not have visible rust in every panel, trashed exhaust system, ripped seats, and water in the cabin.

[1974dodgecharger]

I bought my first '69 Charger in 1975 for $750.00 with 65,000 on the clock. The 318 ran well, but every panel has rust & holes in it, the exhaust was rusted, the front seats were ripped pretty badly, water leaked into the trunk & onto the passenger compartment floor. Today, you really don't see 6 year old cars with these issues any longer.

that's because it's all covered up with bondo

Bryan

bondo technology got better?

[Cooter]

Well, NOTHING will live in the Rust belt..MAYBE with line-X on Every single panel..We get some of those "Northern" cars and DAMN, 6 Years on those things, they are ready for the scrapper.

[b5blue]

So for a new car, bought today 10-11 years, figuring average daily use? (No extreme to good or bad.) Then sharply down hill?     

[JB400]

So for a new car, bought today 10-11 years, figuring average daily use? (No extreme to good or bad.) Then sharply down hill?      

The way most people use cars and trucks now adays, yes.  It don't take 10 years either.  Try 3 to 4 years.  I'm not talking rust buckets, but general wear and tear.  I go to car auctions all the time.  You'd be surprised at what rolls across the block.  No BJ that's for sure.  The best bet for any car  guy is to make friends with a dealer, or become one.  Go to the auctions if your in the market for a different car.

[GOTWING]

I guess it's where you live, my 2004 ram and 2005 300c sit outside and are driven daily, not one has a spot of rust anywhere. That's in De. near the beach too.

[Cooter]

It's all in how one takes care of his/her car in the rust belt. How many spray on undercoating? How many even wash their truck/car after salt/snow is down? I'm not referring to the "Lazy mans" car wash, I'm referring to underneath the car.

[c00nhunterjoe]

My 99 durango only has rust on the bumper filler and that's cmmon on all of them.  My 07 charger shines like new with 108k on the clock

[bill440rt]

I had a '98 Ram for 10 years (bought it new). Notorious rust buckets. Not a speck of rust on it when I sold it. It was driveway kept, but I always kept it waxed & clean.

If you take care of your vehicle, it will take care of you. 

[Fred]

I had a '98 Ram for 10 years (bought it new). Notorious rust buckets. Not a speck of rust on it when I sold it. It was driveway kept, but I always kept it waxed & clean.

If you take care of your vehicle, it will take care of you. 

Amen!

[aussiemuscle]

i think computers in cars is about to become an issue when old. atm, cars with bad ecu you can just swap out the whole unit. that will soon be impossible.

The Solstice and Saturn Sky will probably have some potential over the long run.    I certainly am not an advocate of putting any car away new in the wrapper.    Ask the '78 Pace Car Vette guys how that worked out.

Reminds me of the Falcon Cobra. in 1978 Ford Australia had 400 coupes left that they were having trouble selling, so they painted them all white, with bold blue stripes over the whole car and they sold out in record time. a couple years ago they did a celebration BF Falcon 'Cobra' scheme (modern car with the same paint scheme) and collectors snapped them up thinking they'd be valuable just like the original. they aren't getting more a few thousand more than a standard Falcon and are no where near the what they paid for them.

[Mike DC]

i think computers in cars is about to become an issue when old. atm, cars with bad ecu you can just swap out the whole unit. that will soon be impossible.

Absolutely agree. 

[Mytur Binsdirti]

So for a new car, bought today 10-11 years, figuring average daily use? (No extreme to good or bad.) Then sharply down hill?      

The way most people use cars and trucks now adays, yes.  It don't take 10 years either.  Try 3 to 4 years.  I'm not talking rust buckets, but general wear and tear.  I go to car auctions all the time.  You'd be surprised at what rolls across the block.  No BJ that's for sure.  The best bet for any car  guy is to make friends with a dealer, or become one.  Go to the auctions if your in the market for a different car.

I give it far more than 3-4 years IF you take care of it.Today, most everyone I know has a car with 125,000+ miles on the clock. That was absolutely unheard of in the 60s & 70s. In fact, back in the day (pre-fuel injection), it was normal to trade your car every two-three years before things started to go wrong & rust started popping. If a car had more than 80,000 miles, it wasn't long before it would be in the junk yard. That's just the way it was.

[JB400]

So for a new car, bought today 10-11 years, figuring average daily use? (No extreme to good or bad.) Then sharply down hill?     

The way most people use cars and trucks now adays, yes.  It don't take 10 years either.  Try 3 to 4 years.  I'm not talking rust buckets, but general wear and tear.  I go to car auctions all the time.  You'd be surprised at what rolls across the block.  No BJ that's for sure.  The best bet for any car  guy is to make friends with a dealer, or become one.  Go to the auctions if your in the market for a different car.

I give it far more than 3-4 years IF you take care of it.Today, most everyone I know has a car with 125,000+ miles on the clock. That was absolutely unheard of in the 60s & 70s. In fact, back in the day (pre-fuel injection), it was normal to trade your car every two-three years before things started to go wrong & rust started popping. If a car had more than 80,000 miles, it wasn't long before it would be in the junk yard. That's just the way it was.

Problem is people DON'T take care of their cars. 

[Fred]

So for a new car, bought today 10-11 years, figuring average daily use? (No extreme to good or bad.) Then sharply down hill?      

The way most people use cars and trucks now adays, yes.  It don't take 10 years either.  Try 3 to 4 years.  I'm not talking rust buckets, but general wear and tear.  I go to car auctions all the time.  You'd be surprised at what rolls across the block.  No BJ that's for sure.  The best bet for any car  guy is to make friends with a dealer, or become one.  Go to the auctions if your in the market for a different car.

I give it far more than 3-4 years IF you take care of it.Today, most everyone I know has a car with 125,000+ miles on the clock. That was absolutely unheard of in the 60s & 70s. In fact, back in the day (pre-fuel injection), it was normal to trade your car every two-three years before things started to go wrong & rust started popping. If a car had more than 80,000 miles, it wasn't long before it would be in the junk yard. That's just the way it was.

Problem is people DON'T take care of their cars.  

Some of us do. 

[1970Moparmann]

I have friends that don't do jack to cars and trucks except change the engine oil, and have 200k miles.  I've always have used Amsoil oils and fluids and take care of my stuff.  Knock on wood haven't had anything major go wrong since a POS 98 Blazer.

[elacruze]

I have a '96 Pontiac Sunfire convertible, 2.4 TC automatic with 180,000 miles on it. It was well-cared for until about 3 years ago when I gave it to my daugter, now it gets only 'normal maintenance'. It runs as good as ever, shows no signs of giving up, and has no significant rust. I have to admit the car has never seen salt other than beach air. Some of the cheap plastic parts are showing age, and are obsolete and hard to find-all the junkyard cars have the same troubles.

In the future, if the computer craps out, I'd replace it with a non-OEM computer. The Electromotive box I have to put in the Charger is fully capable of operating the drivetrain on a new car, and fully tunable to boot. Of course, you actually have to tune it...but on the day when OEM is no longer available I have an option.

The metal on new cars is so much better than it was before the 90's, the number of good cars with bad engines will be very high in the future, relative to the past.

[Cooter]

On the '98 Blazer...Oh boy. We got one that boss owns as a used car right now and are trying to sell it.

First off, the 4.3 engines use a plastic Intake gasket.. Aftermarket ones are metal. Go figure. Love to meet the genius GM Engineer that thought plastic would hold up.

Next, was the door pin bushings in the hinges. Wow did GM get that one wrong. Bushings aren't made of sh*t.

Next, transmission lost OD. Wonderful.

Door panels falling off from having to remove them due to 5 Power window motor replacements.

And on and on.

[F8-4life]

Here in ohio rust never sleeps. When I get lucky enough to find classics in a salvageyard, they are soo rusted out its unbelievable. I found a '59 chevy and tore off one of the batwing fins using only my hands! (garage art) that is how rusty these cars are! Another time while looking over a '68 charger in a boneyard... I went to rest on the front fender and fell through!

So basically in a harsh midwest enviroment metal doesnt stand a chance... take a 50's-60's car and set it in a feild for 40 years. It will end up being a pile but the car will still "exist". Cause they are tanks!

I'd wager if you did the same with a modern car iwth todays metals, come back in 40 years and the car will have vanished! All that would be left is all the plastic garbage.

In the future todays cars will be very scarce, because they are cheap disposable appliances. The nature of the beast is...everything that makes your new car soo conveniant and great, is also the same technoligy that will outdate it and make it obsolete in the coming years.

Even if someone was nuts enough to love a modern jellybean, 30-40 years ahead and they simply WILL not be able to rehab/fix/restore it. The car itself would not allow it. The technoligy will not age well.

[Fred]

I have friends that don't do jack to cars and trucks except change the engine oil, and have 200k miles.  I've always have used Amsoil oils and fluids and take care of my stuff.  Knock on wood haven't had anything major go wrong since a POS 98 Blazer.

That's the advantage of looking after them. Mine never let me down.    Look after them and they'll look after you.

[oldgold69]

 my wifes 07 durango developed a rust bubble on the rear wheel lip  warranted   but what will happen with all these hybred cars how long will those last or will they be too expensive to fix 

[Lord Warlock]

More than likely new cars will easily pass the 10 to 18 year mark with few problems, all depends on maintenance and usage, and dry storage.  I use garages and my cars don't rust.  I've got a 1991 dodge stealth twin turbo which is long out of production and many parts aren't available anymore, but you can get the critical parts restored or rebuilt, like the ECU which suffers from crappy capacitors that leak after 10 years or so.  I stopped driving mine after i replaced the entire drivetrain and interior, at least it shouldn't need much to get back on the road should i ever decide i want to drive it again.  There are plenty of parts from people parting out the cars, if you know where to look for them. 

The newer challengers will likely survive the 40 years as well, they don't need a real tuneup until 100k miles, and my 2010 RT only has 15k miles on it so far. I expect it to last a minimum of 10 years, I don't plan on holding on to it forever though, i have enough forever cars already.  No more room for more.  The stealth may give way to one of my dad's old cars and likely one of his motorcycles.  Some of them will likely make it to collector car status if anyone is willing to hold on to them for 40 years, but they'll all go through the normal depreciation cycle that all cars go through first, and likely will not see appreciation on the same scale as our cars have seen...i.e. 10x or 20x MSRP,  they'll be lucky to see them pull slightly higher than MSRP prices were after 30 years.   Love my daily driver 2010 challenger, but have no illusions it will be as collectible as the 69 charger is. 

[Chryco Psycho]

Depends which Gm dealer you take it to for service LOL

[resq302]

Depends which Gm dealer you take it to for service LOL

Thats too funny.   

[charger_fan_4ever]

10 years ago when fox body mustangs were 10-15 years old i figured noway people would be restoring them. Too many little parts/wiring computer ect.

They are well over 20 years old and i was able to buy a reman computer for under $200 a couple years ago. You can buy pretty much everything to build one today. Pretty well ever interior/trim piece. They have started even making framerails.

I think the only factor down the road willl be lack of interest in fixing an older car.

Maybe in 10-15 years i can buy a rusty srt8 challenger lol.

[tan top]

Depends which Gm dealer you take it to for service LOL

thats funny 

[GOTWING]

Have any of you seen the guy that took a brand new body style Camaro when it came out and actually paid to have it look like it had been out in the elements for like 40 years ?  i think it was one of the maroon colors they have.

[JB400]

Haven't seen it yet, any pics?

[lloyd3]

The wife and I had a 1994 RX-7 Twin Turbo for may years that gave us no trouble whatsoever. Because it was a 2-seater, we used it very sparingly (it was "technically" hers) and kept it serviced religiously.  Absolutely everything worked (the Freon-12 AC would freeze you almost out of the car) and the sound system was spectacular (Bose Acoustic Wave).  While the technology in the car worked flawlessly (and my Charger couldn't touch it on top-end), it terrified me that someday I would have to deal with it (and I still can't tell you how a rotary works), so about two years ago we sold it (w/37k actual on it).  The 3rd generation RX-7s were only built and imported to the USA for 3-years and competent people to service them were becoming hard to find.  That situation can't be getting any better.  It was a rolling testament to non-sustainable technology.