Chrysler and Trans Am

[Ghoste]

With the benefit of hindsight, what do you REALLY think the results would have been in 1970 if Chrysler had started their Trans Am program a few years earlier when Ford and GM did?  Don't just say a sweep because we all love Mopar but what do you think the true results would have been?
Personally I think the 1970 season would have seen Dodge and Plymouth win some races but the manufacturer championship going down the same way each year.  Ford and Chev each had a team that were juggernauts in their devotion to win.

[JB400]

So, you don't think Dan Gurney could have pulled it off then.  Considering how well the Trans Am cars of the era run today, even with period pieces, I think it would been a toss up in the 70 season.

[Ghoste]

Parnelli Jones and Foyt were as fierce as you could get in that series and Penske/Donahue were a motorsport force of nature so no, I don't think Gurney could have defeated them.  Beaten them here and there yes, but not the championship.

[Chryco Psycho]

Hard to come in cold & win , a couple of more years prior may have helped , if they had had Penske & Donohue who knows , Donohue was simple one of the best drivers / engineers ever .

[Ghoste]

Absolutely.  Look what he did with AMC and that was when he was getting away from TA and becoming more involved with other racing.  Some say the year he cleaned up in TA with AMC was a fluke because everyone else had pulled out but they failt to take account the miniscule budget AMC gave Penske was not a lot of money especially against well developed Ford and GM teams with or without factory spnsorship.  The take his part time attnetion to that project into account and it really highlights what a powerhouse he was.

[Chryco Psycho]

Donohue is my favorite all time driver , Have you read 'The Unfair Advantage' about Donohue , he was simply brilliant  , he helped engineer the Porsche 917 for Can Am which was dominant in 72 & killed the series in 73 winning 12/13 races so no one else wanted to play after that , he won in virtually every type of racing , Nascar , Indy ,Pikes peak etc & set track records .

[Ghoste]

Sure have.  Got that one and there is a more recent biography of him too that I also have.  Also had the pleasure of being able to pore over his 917 about three years ago in private for a little while.  Very impressive individual.

[Ghoste]

Sure have.  Got that one and there is a more recent biography of him too that I also have.  Also had the pleasure of being able to pore over his 917 about three years ago in private for a little while.  Very impressive individual.

[Chryco Psycho]

I would kill to see the 917 / 30 in person , which one did you see the /30 , the /10 or the /K ?
Do you have pix you can forward?
What is the name of the new book ?

[Ghoste]

It's not that new now but its  "Mark Donahue-Technical Excellence at Speed".  I saw the 30 I believe and I do have pics somewhere.  I will try and find them.

http://www.amazon.com/Mark-Donohue-Technical-Excellence-Speed/dp/1935007025

[Chryco Psycho]

I will have to see if I can get that !!

[JB400]

Looking at Mopars' commitment to Nascar and NHRA,  I'm going to say for the sake of a good debate, that they probably could have won.  I think that if they had some time, they could have easily made the Cuda and Challenger more competitive.  With time and money, comes knowledge. They could have gotten the same man power that Parnelli and Donahue had.  Considering the amount of effort Dodge did to win at Nascar,  I think all we saw with the AAR and the T/A, was just the first page.

[Chryco Psycho]

I agree , Petty had no problems winning , they would have in T/A as well with more time & $$ invested

[Ghoste]

Petty is a unique example though.  He was to NASCAR what Donahue was to road racing.  Look how well he did his first year with Ford.  I agree our guys would have been learning but the other teams were learning at the same time.  Mind you there is often a certain point of diminishing returns with motorsports technology when you compare a team that has been at it for several seasons versus a team in say its second or third go.
I'm still unconvinced they could have pulled off a championship.

[JB400]

So, your saying an up and coming team like say Stewart Haas is not supposed to go and win the chamopionship. I know it's Nascar, not SCCA, but it did happen.  Stewart won, unfortunately.  Other teams in other motorsports have probably won as well with in just 2-3 years.

I'm still sticking with my opinion.  If the Chrysler Corp. was willing to just build a scant 500 cars to win in Nascar, I'm sure they were willing to spend the bucks to gather the right people to win in SCCA.  They might have even gotten drivers like Parnelli or Donahue.  Maybe even have brought Mario over as well.  It's even possible that Petty could have brought his resources.  Petty was not just a Nascar driver.

[Ghoste]

Petty never did as well on the a road course as he did just turning left.  Yes IF they could have bought a Donahue or Jones they may have got a championship.  Posey was a great driver but I don't think great enough and Gurney was getting ready to hang it up.
Here's a related question for you though, do you think Swede Savage might have had that level of greatness in him?  Say if he had started driving for Plymouth in 1967 and the only thing he had to thinkabout for 3 or 4 years was getting better and being faster.

[Aero426]

Very hard to say what Chrysler would have accomplished in T/A given more time.    More competitive?   I would say yes.    Win races,  I would say yes.   Win a championship?   I don't think it would be a lock given the power that Ford and Penske had going.     It was the toughest, most competitive racing going at the time.  

As far as Petty winning in T/A or running that team, it would be possible, but would also represent a dilution of personnel resources from Grand National racing.     Moving forward when they became the cars and parts distributor in 1971, I could see that scenario becoming more realistic.    I'm sure they would have liked the factory money.

[Aero426]

This is 917-30 chassis 004 from the Donohue Reunion at Road America in 2010.   

[Aero426]

This car was to be Penske's 1974 car had they continued on in Can-Am.   It was sold new to the Australian Porsche importer and eventually was restored and painted into the Sunoco colors in modern times.    Even without Can-Am history, it is a fantastic car.   The most recent owner passed away at a very young age (40's) and the car was recently sold for about 4.4M.     It has been suggested that Jerry Seinfeld was the anonymous buyer.  

[Chryco Psycho]

Awesome , thanks for the pix  I have the Exoto die cast of the 917/30 , that is all I could afford !!

[Aero426]

Awesome , thanks for the pix  I have the Exoto die cast of the 917/30 , that is all I could afford !!

Me too, LOL.

Here is the 917 shown with one of the old Penske haulers. 

[Aero426]

International hauler restored at tremendous expense.   The owner has a 73 Eagle Penske Indy Car.

[Ghoste]

That is a dedicated enthusiast!

[JB400]

Petty never did as well on the a road course as he did just turning left.  Yes IF they could have bought a Donahue or Jones they may have got a championship.  Posey was a great driver but I don't think great enough and Gurney was getting ready to hang it up.
Here's a related question for you though, do you think Swede Savage might have had that level of greatness in him?  Say if he had started driving for Plymouth in 1967 and the only thing he had to thinkabout for 3 or 4 years was getting better and being faster.

Sorry for the delay,  still recuperating from fun with Chuck and Fred last Saturday.  Since I'm a young gun and didn't see him race,  I had to do a little background search.
From what I found out, seems like Savage done pretty good with what he had.  His biggest gremlins were part failures.  For someone that had that many failures and still finish 5th in points and never started lower than 8th, I call that a success.  With stats like that, I think that we would be talking about him just like we do Donahue and Parnelli.  To bad his career ended the way it did.
As far as Petty turning right and left,  he's the king for a reason.  The guy has 6 wins on roadcourses and finished in the top 10 51% of the time.  Top 20 67% of the races.  I think he could have held up on the Trans Am circuit.  But I don't think he would have ever went over there.  He was having too much success in Nascar.  He might have started a team, but his only involvement would have been team owner.

[HPP]

In 66 Mopar won 3 of 8 races. Plymouth placed second and Dodge was third in manufacturer points. Chevy was 4th.

In 67 Chevy finished third in points with Dodge fourth. Plymouth dropped off and Mercury Cougars and Mustangs were the dominate race winners. Gurney was one of the Mercury team drivers that dominated the year. After the seaosn Ford decided to not dilute its resources and put all the next years effort intoFord and Mercury was left holding the bag.

1968 was officially the start of the Camaro and Mustang show and it continued into 1969. They are the only big bore cars to win this year. Mopar brands are officially out of manufacturer efforts and AMC and Pontiac move in.

1970s Camaro/Mustang show was upset by a few wins of Donahue's Javelins. AMC places second in manufacturers standings in only their second year of full time factory effort. Dodge is fourth and Plymouth fifth.

By 1971, the Camaros didn't win any races and Chevy fell to Third, with Ford second and AMC in their third full year, taking the manufacturers pole position.

Given that sequence of events, had Chrysler stayed in it from the get go, and/or stuck with it more than a year, yeah, I think they could have fought for the Championship. If they would have put a significant effort behind the new A body design for '67, I don't doubt they could have done well. The mopar suspension at that time was head and shoulders above the Ford and Chevy offerings. It took the bow tie and blue oval guys a couple of years to figure out how to fix their mess so they became the power houses they were in '68.

If Mopar was in it for '71, with the whole support of Chrysler race engineering, they surely would have been enough to give the Donahue team a run for the money. Was Donahue good, oh yeah, but, he was still only one guy. While AMC stepped up their factory efforts to do what they did, had Mopar done the same with their resources and maintained good driving talent, I don't doubt they would have won a championship. Is Donahue's AMC championship diluted because of the Ford and Chevy efforts...maybe. But it is now in the history books as a championship regardless. Had they stuck it out, Mopar could have been there too and maybe could have made the trans am series a more household name at the time.

[JB400]

Are you saying that Roger Penske had little to do with the success of Donahue?

[Ghoste]

It was a symbitotic relationship in many ways.  They were both perfectionists and each fed off of the other's drive.

[Aero426]

One of the things that is impressive about Donohue is the sheer number of concurrent race programs that he was involved with at Penske.   At any given time, they were running Indy, Trans-Am, some Can-Am, a little F1 and F5000 and eventually NASCAR.   Not all of these at the same time, but usually there were two or three going.   I really can't think of another team that had so much going on at one time.   Donohue was also helped to be successful because of the people less visible at Penske; Karl Kainhofer, Don Cox the ex-Chevy engineer,  Ron Fournier the fabricator just to name a few.   Too many guys to mention. 

[Chryco Psycho]

 Absolutly Donohue was not alone it was a fantastic team effort , Penske had plans to have Donohue run the racing programs when he quit driving .
AJ Foyt maybe , he was involved in a lot of different racing programs at one time

[Fred]

Sorry for the delay,  still recuperating from fun with Chuck and Fred last Saturday.  

Still recuperating?
You're going to have to pull your socks up with you want to run with the big dogs.

[JB400]

Sorry for the delay,  still recuperating from fun with Chuck and Fred last Saturday. 

Still recuperating?
You're going to have to pull your socks up with you want to run with the big dogs.

YOUR bark or worse than your bite.  Your just a little yapper.

[HPP]

No, I'm not saying the Penske had nothing to do with Donahue's success. In fact, the exact opposite is probably more true and it is because of Penske that Donahue had as much success as he did. While Donahue was an excellent driver and forward thinking engineer, even Penske has admitted that it was the whole of the program that made them all successful. Like Aero pointed out, the sheer number of programs they were involved in meant they were acquiring track data and running experience that directly benefited all of their programs. That is how they took the particularly under budgeted AMC team to a championship. It wasn't because the AMC stuff was that much superior to everything else.

Chrysler was involved in 1966 and 1970. That's it. Had they stuck it out through the years and acquired the data and experience, yes, they could have given Penske/Donahue a run for the money. Look at what they did in Nascar and NHRA, where they put a concentrated effort. Had Chrysler applied that same microscope to trans am, they could have duplicated the same type of results there.

[Aero426]

And in fact, the AMC stuff as received by Penske was NOT superior at all.    And this was after two years of Ronnie Kaplan's team running the Javelins.    Donohue quickly found out that there was literally a "can't do it" attitude coming from Kenosha Engineering and there would not be much cooperation forthcoming.   

[Ghoste]

Not unlike the not invented here he encountered at Ferarri

[Chryco Psycho]

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/10/02/hemmings-find-of-the-day-1970-dodge-challenger-2/

[Aero426]

In the Chicago area, there is a surviving AAR Challenger body in white.   The car has an AAR serial number but was never completed.