Engine Oil Supplement Question:

[Captain D]

Hi all,

I've been reading through some old threads and I was just curious to see who uses this engine oil supplement in your Chargers:

http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view/22-engine-oil-supplement-with-zinc-treatment-4401

A friend of mine up the road has a 69' Charger as well, but says that its not necessary. However, after reading the threads I've come to realize that he is definitely wrong and I just want to do everything that I can to help protect the life of my engine (383 4 brrl BB), so any input would be great just so that I may double-check this topic for being a new guy at this stuff.

Do you pour the whole 32 oz. in with your oil all at once or only partially? I had a somewhat recent oil change (Valvoline Full Synthetic, 10w-30)) a few months back right before we hit the road. We only have 200 miles on both the motor and tranny at this point overall - would it be too late to add this additive and/or should I let some of the existing oil out in order to add this additive (so as not to add too much in the car)?

With only 200 miles on the engine, perhaps I should just swap out the synthetic oil with conventional oil, say Castrol GTX non-high mileage, for the first couple hundred miles and add a zinc supplement, such as the one in the link above, when I go to do this very soon. But, when I go to change the oil, I'm assuming that the whole 32 oz. gets added at once...? I just learned a lot of this recently, unfortunately, so better late than never (or before its too late for the motor altogether). To be honest, I don't know too much about the specifics on the type of cam + heads used in my motor rebuild - it was rebuilt prior to my purchasing it so as much info that I can get on how best to maintain my engine at this point would be greatly appreciated. As a side note, do you feel that my oil pump (or anything else for that matter) would be damaged even though its only got 200 miles on it?

Thank you for any and all input,
Aaron

[resq302]

Aaron,

I believe it is intended to be added as a whole quart in place of using a regular quart of oil.  And yes, I would change out that oil ASAP!!!!! Especially since there is no zinc additive in it, there is a slight chance that you possibly started wearing the lifters and the cam but with only 200 miles on it, its best to do it now before you go any further since it will only harm it and not help it.  Also, I would not use synthetic oil to break in an engine.  Ive heard things where the synthetic oil does not allow the rings to seat properly.  Change out the oil with your favorite standard oil brand and just use a bottle of the Rislone additive in place of one of the quarts.

[Plumcrazy]

I use that product. It is intended to replace 1 qt of motor oil. Just drain some oil out and add the whole quart.

The oil that's in your engine right now does have zinc in it, it's not as much as years ago but I doubt you damaged anything.

Your engine will break in fine with synthetic oil, several manufacturers use it as factory fill in their new vehicles.

We have a customer here who will not take delivery of his new vehicle until we drain the oil and replace it with synthetic. He's never had any problems.

[Chryco Psycho]

Once the synthetic is in there changing oil will make no difference but yes you need the additive to keep the cam alive , not sure with that product how much you add to an oil change though

[Captain D]

Thank you guys for the responses  ,

Actually, when we first broke in the engine after the rebuild, the garage used non-synthetic Valvoline - it was only recently that the synthetic was used (in an attempt to simply run a better quality oil) once we got the car on the road and hence, the 200 miles on it only within the past month or so. I just wish that the shop had informed me of the need to use an oil supplement agghhh   I realize that I didn't ask so it could be my fault but I would think with him having done this for 30 years, he would have informed me to use a supplement since this was our first project. Although its no use crying over 'spilled milk,' all I can say is that I'm fortunate that this material is discussed on the forum - otherwise my new engine would be toast. With that being said, "thank you" for this site!

Just so that I'm on the same page to double-check a few things, and, before I go out buying stuff:

1.) By first running the rebuild engine with non-synthetic Valvoline oil, does that happen to have any zinc components to it? Do you feel that we were still okay with at least some zinc in the Valvoline conventional oil at that point? It seems that there is some, but not as much as is needed for these cars - I just didn't know how good/bad it was to run without the supplement at that point...

2.) In this thread, we've seen opinions that my Valvoline Full-Synthetic oil that is now in the car currently is okay to continue to run - only release some of that existing oil to provide for the full 32 oz. zinc supplement. And, we've seen some opinions to change out the oil and filter altogether and use this supplement during the change. Based on all of this info, which of the two routes would be best to go (I just want to do the best job that I can and ensure that its done right from this point out)? Do you feel that I should go with a synthetic/conventional blend at this point, just as a thought?

As a side note, I'm looking to also use a lead additive in w/ the gas. The instructions say to empty the entire lead additive on a near empty tank prior to refilling with gas. My question here is - since gas prices being what they are - I hardly, if ever, completely fill the gas tank. I often put approximately $15-$20 in, but since I will probably never completely top off the gas tank, should I only add, perhaps, half of the lead substitute additive so as not to mix too much lead in with the gas? Does anyone have a good ballpark ratio how much lead additive to add per amount of gasoline?

Thank you again for the info and guidance,
Aaron

[Chryco Psycho]

The original valvoline will have some zinc or ZDDP in it probably approx 1/2 the minimum needed unless it was 20 -50 racing oil .
Rather than installing what you have , a full qt save it for the next change , you can buy the comp cams additive approx 1/4 qt & just add that to what you have in the engine now.
You want to mix the lead additive in the approx ratio so if you have a 1/2 tank in the car & the additive treats a full tank around 18 gal then add 1/2 

[Captain D]

Hi guys,

I just heard back from another friend on this topic and he, surprisingly, wasn't in favor of neither the Rislone zinc nor the lead additives. He argued all that is really needed is at least a decent synthetic blend and the use of a product called 'Dura-Lube' to then be added only after the first 100 miles on the vehicle to prevent friction and help increase miles per gallon.

And, as for the lead additive - he added that it should only be applied if "your heads have not had the hardened exhaust valve seats put in." If I did decide to add the lead, it sounds as if I can add according to the # of gas put in - 1/4 of lead per 1/4 tank of gas, 1/2 of lead per 1/2 tank of gas, 3/4 of lead per 3/4 tank of gas, ect...  But, I'm unsure whether or not to add the lead additive or not at this point  . With the lead additive, I'm not exactly sure of the valve seats, etc. in my 69' since the engine was already rebuilt at the time I had purchased the vehicle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making an argument one way or another with regards to either the zinc or lead additives - I'm just the guy caught in the middle between the two sides of an opinion,  . So, do you believe that a synthetic blend oil (or simply using my existing full synthetic in the car already) and the product 'Dura-Lube' is good enough for a 'daily driver' Charger? And, after going on Dura-Lube's website, I came across several possible products, which specific item would you suggest be used if this product checks out? Overall, good debate because I simply want to make sure that I'm not loading a lot of 'stuff' in my engine and creating future problems down the road...

This sounds like what he suggested:

http://www.duralube.com/Galleries/Small/Dura%20Lube%20Engine%20Treatment.pdf

Thank you again for any and all replies,
Aaron

[Jderek]

I just had a new 440 built and the machine shop specified that a zinc additive IS necessary.  There are a variety of them available...don't think Dura-Lube qualifies.  Why take the chance of losing your cam? 

[Captain D]

Jderek - Thank you for the response,

In agreement with you, and several others here, I'm leaning towards the zinc additive simply because this isn't something that I want to gamble with.

One point he brought up that I thought that I would double-check here is this: He stated that, "zinc 'washes away' with oil flow" whereas "the Dura-Lube 'bonds' to the metal." And, "as long as your oil is flowing everywhere it is supposed to, everything will be fine."

Although this individual is knowledgeable and I certainly respect everyone's opinion, I'm kinda leaning towards the zinc additive just because an engine rebuild isn't something to gamble with. Also, I'm hearing more votes towards the zinc than the Dura-Lube at this point. So, unless someone can chime to advocate what he says is true with regards to the Dura-Lube vs. the zinc, all I can say is that he may be perfectly correct but I just can't take that risk. Any additional info would be great and I continue learning about this stuff just in case I can, in turn, help out someone else later on down the road...

Best regards,
Aaron 

[resq302]

Bonding to the metal parts and having something that reacts well to high pressure like zinc is two different things.  Zinc is pretty much a sacrificial component in the lubricant which helps with reducing the wear.  Now Lucas Oil Stabilizer also "bonds" to the gears and other metal parts however, that too does not contain zinc.  IF you want to add something to the oil that is already in there without having to change the oil, there is a product called ZDDP Plus which is a small, maybe 8 oz. bottle that can be added to ANY oil to bring up the zinc levels to what a flat tapped cam would need.     

http://www.zddplus.com/

[darkside]

Does royal purple have zinc in it?

[440]

The Royal Purple HPS and XPR should have acceptable levels of zinc.

[Chryco Psycho]

Check the rating on the container , SJ is best , SL is still OK if it has SM or SN on it it meets the new regulations with drastically reduced ZDDP content = no good for flat tappet cams .

[Captain D]

Thanks guys for the ZDDPlus link and info - Based on the info that's out there on this product, it seems to have some pretty good reviews. I'll call round' some local auto parts stores to see if they have it is stock...

Chryco Psycho - Since this topic is new for me, is your posting in reference to ZDDPlus or the Royal Purple?

And, for the lead, it seems that its something that is not as crucial as this zinc - but one of those scenarios where its not crucial, but won't hurt anything if its added. Is that right? However, is this something to not add based on what a friend of mine suggested earlier, "do not add lead unless your heads have not had the hardened exhaust valve seats put in." With the lead additive, I'm not exactly sure of the valve seats, etc. in my 69' since the engine was already rebuilt at the time I had purchased the vehicle. Does anyone think that it would be best for me to not add the lead based on this info?

Thanks again for the guidance - I just like to double-check before I start adding things to the vehicle,
Aaron

Looks like, locally, only NAPA can get something similar to the ZDDPlus:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=LUR10063_0044506891

[elacruze]

#3 on the eternal unresolved thread list.

First, it's important to recognize that there are only two significant break-in bits in your engine. First, the piston rings. Second, the cam/lifters. For these to break in properly, they must have just the right amount of wear at the right rate. If they are too slick, they will not seat and expose you to blowby in the case of the rings and point loading/failure on the cam. Proper break in seats the rings to the cylinder and smoothes and widens the contact point on the cam/lifters.

A properly run-in engine achieves both these ends to 90% in the first 20 minutes. After that, your goal is to preserve the parts.
After it's all said and done, here's what I do-

In my 505" big block I used LM ceramic lifters. I don't need to worry about what's in my oil to keep the cam alive, it doesn't care anymore. Piston rings don't much care what you use for oil either, once they're seated-you only have to keep them cool and lubricated. Because of the investment, I use Royal Purple 10w40 Racing oil which has plenty of ZDDP even though the cam doesn't need it.

In my 318 pickup which is 100% stock internally with ~85k miles I use any brand-name 10w40 and throw in a small bottle of STP additive, which has plenty of ZDDP and costs something like $4.

Both engines run great with no signs of trouble.

This is one area where people spend way too much time worrying about their street-driven engine after it's broke in; spend the worry planning and executing break-in and you won't have to worry much about it afterwards.

The difference between any of the premium racing oils with ZDDP is insignificant if you have a licence plate on it. The difference between a shelf oil with STP additive and the premium synthetic racing oils is about $3.00 a quart and zero in performance, if you have a licence plate on it.

There are measureable differences, and these differences can be critical in a highly stressed engine; but I'd suggest that if you aren't making 50% over stock engine output with 20% higher RPM then you don't see the benefits, only the costs.

I was told a long time ago by an Ashland Oil lubrication engineer that there was zero difference between a cheap and great oil for the first 60 seconds. It's the durability, not the original properties, that matter.

That's my opinion, feel free to disregard it.

[Chryco Psycho]

The reference was the SAE marking on any oil container . all oil products have to have an SAE rating
The exhaust valves get very hot , they are hanging open in the exhaust gas heat as high as 1800* or more , when they close they can weld to the seat as they cool , the lead prevents this , when the valve is re-opened it pulls some of the seat off , I have seen the seats erode more than 1/4" into the head . Since the lead was removed from fuel you Have to have hard seats installed at least on the exhaust to prevent this . On a daily driver the seats can wear away in a year or two , on a car that gets driven 2000 miles/ year this will take a decade or more to get bad , so is it nessisary not really , you may rebuild or replace the heads in the next 10-20 years anyway 

[Captain D]

Thanks again gents for the replies  ,

I went ahead an ordered some of the ZDDPlus today, and it should arrive here on Thursday - which I will 'definitely' put in before the car moves an inch.

As for the lead, and based on the fact that I have no idea if the hardened seats were installed during the engine's rebuild (they could have been used) but since I don't know 100% I went ahead and just purchased some of the lead substitute by the maker 'Gunk' from Auto-Zone for a few bucks. Although I don't plan to run the car hard, I kind of have to treat my car as if it doesn't have the hardened seats, so going that extra step 'just in case' is not putting me out of a lot of $$ and what I've learned it doesn't negatively affect the motor - if anything, its giving that peace of mind I suppose (as long as it doesn't gum up the carburetor  ).

"Thank you" guys for the many replies and helpful guidance once more - its great learning about this stuff!  
High regards,
Aaron  

[Captain D]

Even though I feel pretty comfortable in knowing what I need to have for here on out from this thread - has anyone used this oil product? If so, any pros/cons that anyone can share? How best does its level of Zinc and Phosphorus hold up to ZDDPlus and the other products out there on the market?

http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx

Thanks again for any and all replies,
Aaron

[resq302]

Don't know about the Brad Penn oil, Aaron but this is the stuff I've been using.  http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/racing/racing-motor-oil/6 and then last year I tried out the synthetic version.  http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/8   One thing I noticed between the two is that the synthetic DID reduce my engine coolant temps.

frequently asked questions.....    http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76

[Fred]

I'm extrememly happy with Brad Penn. I use the high performance 20W-50. It's got 1500 PPM zinc content so you don't need to add any extra.
I've included their table for you to check over..............

[c00nhunterjoe]

I run brad penn 10w40 in my car with zddp plus. No issues, engine is run hard for the last 12 years