Radiators, core support openings, capacities...

[Moparman01]

Few questions here. As i've said in other threads i just had a new aluminum head 440 built for my 69 Charger. The car was origionally a 318/904 car with a 22" radiator. Years ago i dropped in a mild 440/727 combo and installed a freshly re-cored 26" 3 row Chrysler radiator, i had overheating problems with it immediatly and went thru every known possiblitly with that engine (the list is to long to go thru, you name it i have tried it), untill i finally had enough, bit the bullet, started from scratch with a different block and had it professionaly cleaned and built from the ground up. Well, even with a whole new/different engine i STILL have an over heating issue! Drove the car the other night across town, when drove it around back to my garage the temp gauges (yes plural, i have 2 gauges) were reading almost 230*. The new motor has a 180* t-stat. At one time, with the old engine, i did replace the radiator with a new cross flow aluminum rad. and it ran even hotter so put the Chry. rad. back in. So, what i'm wondering is, is there a difference in the core support openings between a car with a standard 22" rad. and a car that came with the heavy duty cooling 26" radiator?? My opening is exactly 22.5", could the fact that about 3.5" is being blocked by the core support be hurting the flow of air enough to make it run hot?? Obviously i don't want to hack up my core support, would a 22" radiator be enough to cool a mild 440 (engine made 440 hp on the dyno plus i'm running stock HP maniflolds instead of headers)?? I have a 22" Chrylser radiator that is a 4 row in my 71 Demon 340 and it never even thinks about running hot, are all the 22's 4 row? I am at my wit's end with this car, after spending good money on a new engine i still can't go very far with out worrying about it getting hot...    

[cdr]

WHAT kind of temp gauge

[Moparman01]

I have the stock dash gauge hooked up, plus a sunpro gauge under the dash, i've also tried several different aftermarket gauges/brands as well, all same results.

[rebby]

Any pics of your radiator setup? Is your radiator wider than the opening in the radiator support? I had a 26" in mine when I bought it and it fills the space perfectly with no overlap from the support.

[71green go]

What water pump by chance?........not the 440 source aluminum one ?.......
just checking

[Moparman01]

I'll get a couple pics posted tomorrow, maybe a visual will help! Anyways, like i said before there is almost a 4 inch overlap of the core opening and the radiator, the rad. is 26" and the opening is just over 22". I've had several different styles of water pumps including a standard, an A/C pump, and a high volume Mancini aluminum pump. Nope do not have the 440 source unit. Currently i have a standard (bought new) big block pump.

[71green go]

I'll get a couple pics posted tomorrow, maybe a visual will help! Anyways, like i said before there is almost a 4 inch overlap of the core opening and the radiator, the rad. is 26" and the opening is just over 22". I've had several different styles of water pumps including a standard, an A/C pump, and a high volume Mancini aluminum pump. Nope do not have the 440 source unit. Currently i have a standard (bought new) big block pump.

sorry I meant the water pump housing...not the actual pump....but sounds like your good!

[Moparman01]

Lol ok, yeah the housing is from Mancini Racing, i've never heard of any issues with the Mancini unit, but...

[bill440rt]

Your radiator is not performing up to it's capacity due to the blockage from the smaller rad support opening. Yes, the 4" blocked makes a HUGE difference. I went thru nearly the same thing.

You have three choices:
1) Install a thicker 22" rad & hopes it performs up to snuff.
2) Swap out the right side 22" rad support baffle with a repro 26" support baffle (only the right side needs to be changed).
3) Neatly modify it (cut) to the larger 26" opening.

I opted for #3. I did it VERY neatly, flanged the edge like original & it looks completely stock. NO ONE at a show has ever questioned it. Only cost involved was repainting the baffle after cutting.

[oldcarnut]

Just out of curosity, how hard would it be to swap the Demon rad with the Charger for a test check in either one or are the hose outlets opposite?  

[Moparman01]

Thanks for the info Bill, i've thought about the blockage before, kinda skeptical about it, but it makes sense. How did you cut yours neatly? I'm on the fence now, i know guy's that run 22" radiators in there big block Mopars with out any trouble, but i like the idea of the 26".

Oldcarnut, not that it would be a hard swap to do obviously, but my Demon runs and drives great and is my cruise night hot rod right now so at the moment i'm not gonna tear it apart. Actually i'm not sure if the hose ports are the same or not off the top of my head but i don't think they are, i'd have to look!

[cdr]

i think something else is going on, does the car have a high stall converter? are you running the trany cooler through the radiator? or do you have a separate trans cooler,does it get hot idling? does it cool off when going say 40mph? what kind of fan set up do you have?

[my73charger]

Do your radiator hoses have springs in them to keep them from collapsing?  Or do you have the anti-collapsing style?

[Troy]

You only have 440 hp - which isn't a whole lot more than stock. Charger R/Ts with a 440 and no A/C came from the factory with a 22" radiator. Mine never had overheating problems. My Challenger has a 440 Six Pack and a 22" radiator. The only heat issues I have with it are due to the air cleaner trapping heat by the coil. I even run a 195 degree thermostat in it.

Troy

[Moparman01]

cdr, i have a mild stall, 2500 RPM. I have a seperate tranny cooler, does not run thru the rad. at all. Car get's gradually hotter as you drive, get's hotter faster when you slow down or stop, but will only slightly cool back off when moving if it's a cool day.

my73charger, yes my hoses have springs to they can't collapse.

Troy, i have the same feeling about a 22" rad being adequite for a big block, you are right it's not an extreme engine, plus i've seen the 22's work fine in freinds cars. Probably gonna be a the route i go.

[cdr]

what fan do you have

[firefighter3931]

It could be a tuning issue as well so before throwing lots of money and parts at the problem do some investigation. 

If the timing is retarded or the a/f is lean it will run hot. 



Ron

[cdr]

It could be a tuning issue as well so before throwing lots of money and parts at the problem do some investigation. 

If the timing is retarded or the a/f is lean it will run hot. 



Ron

[Moparman01]

Yup, i agree with that too, but it ran on the dyno just fine and the engine builder came right to my garage and helped further dial in the engine after we installed it in the car, for now i'm gona trust his judgement.

[Cooter]

Shroud???
Clutch Fan???If so, is clutch NEW???
Correct pulleys?

[Moparman01]

OK here's some decent pictures of my set-up. As you can see yes i have a fan shroud. The fan that is currently on there is a fixed fan, but i did try a clutch fan at one point with the old engine and it made little to no difference. Also, in the pics you can see i have an external tranny cooler attached to the radiator which i where i thought it was supposed to be installed. An A/C car has the entire radiator opening covered by a condensor so i figure a small tranny cooler can't be that much of a problem, plus i have no idea where to mount it otherwise. As for pulley's, well i don't know if the crank pulley is correct or not, the pump pulley is tho. Crank pulley is a 2 groove, same dia. on both grooves. Yes, i know my belts are not correct, but with the power steering pump i have that was the only way i could line up and run the belts, they are nice and tight. I am at my witts end with this car, i've been fighting this over heating issue for at least 5 years now, though a brand new engine might take care of it....

[firefighter3931]

Yup, i agree with that too, but it ran on the dyno just fine and the engine builder came right to my garage and helped further dial in the engine after we installed it in the car, for now i'm gona trust his judgement.

Just because it runs fine on the dyno doesn't mean that it will run fine in the car ! Dyno cells are the perfect environment to test with an unlimited supply of cold water and cool air. Once the engine is installed in the car with a closed loop cooling system and hot underhood air temps the ballgame changes. 

Edelbrock carburators are notorious for being lean on the main circuit ! 

I would want to verify the timing and fuel curve before throwing any parts at this car. A timing light and wideband O2 sensor are your best friend at this point....or an appointment with a chassis dyno. 

To illustrate a point ; I'm helping another member with some tuning of his newly built 440 that came off the dyno recently and is now being installed in his car. The engine ran fine on the dyno with no issues. I had him check the timing curve and it was waaaaay off ! The dyno operator had set it up with a super slow advance curve and only 4* of initial timing ! For the purposes of break-in and power pulls this will work OK but no way is this correct for an "in-car" tune.  Just goes to show that what can work on the dyno won't work well in the car. 

Check for proper coolant circulation with the cap off first and if that looks good then start looking at the tuneup 



Ron

[cdr]

maybe pull the water pump & check the housing like the pics in this link
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.msg686753.html#msg686753

[bill440rt]

FWIW, here are some shots of my modified rad support. If you're planning on keeping the 26" rad, this is something to consider. Right now you have blockage of air flow thru your radiator. Air flow thru the cooling fins dissipates heat. So a portion of your radiator isn't doing anything. No parts involved, almost zero cost, max airflow thru your radiator.
I measured the distance from the edge of the left side baffle to the edge of the radiator core. Transferred this measurement to the right side & compared it to the rad core to make sure (measure twice, cut once!). Left a little extra to make the flange. Used a pair of broad spade vise-grips to get the flange started, then finished it off nice with a hammer & dolly. Did some final finish grinding & sanding, & painted it. Had to mount the rad on that side with some nuts & bolts. Up top, there is an embossment in the rad support that prevents the rad from sitting flush. Made up a simple 1/4" spacer to take up the gap, painted it black.
The mod is VERY stock appearing, no one has noticed or questioned it a show.

[71green go]

OK.......I will throw this out there for concideration.....
what type oil you running?
My friend found by running royal Purple synthetic with lead ran his car 20 degrees cooler....and I checked at local speed shop and the owner swears that oil can make a world of difference....
worth a try right?
Also....there is a product on the market that you add to rad...called radiator relief...it breaks the surface tension on water and claims to cool up to 30 degrees cooler...another guy I know runs it in his mustang 11 and gets 10 degrees lower temps.......you have to add every 6 months......around 500ml

cheap ways to see......these guys swear by it

Steve