Interesting Article on the Demise of the V-8

[bill440rt]

Came across this link, thought it was an interesting read. Nothing probably not already known, but thought it was interesting nonetheless.

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/08/24/goodbye-v-8s-the-engines-that/

[resq302]

another reason to buy an old car and fix it up!  No computers, bells, or whistles or other big brother accessable stuff!

[hatersaurusrex]

Wow, I don't get the truck thing.    People use them for, you know, towing and stuff.   The new ford EcoBoost V6 is REALLY impressive (tows 12K lbs), but what about trucks bigger than 1/2 ton?

I guess they'll have to use the old 'Toyota 4 cylinder 1 ton' formula:  90 horse 22R motor with so much gearing it takes 200 seconds to get up to speed, but can pull a 7.5K lb trailer.   Just not uphill very fast

On a related note:  This is why our country is jacked.   Politicians (meaning lawyers by trade mostly) make laws based on engineering, but have no engineering knowledge.   They make our federal budget, but few of them went to school for economics or even understand it.    They have the sole power to send our troops into harm's way and declare war, but almost none of them spent a single day in the military.

This is why our infrastructure crumbles, our debt is through the roof, and our troops are off fighting pointless oil wars.   The wrong people are leading this country.     This is what happens when a distracted public would rather watch reality TV than fix their own nation.    When they wake up it's too late.

Yeah I realize these two things seem unrelated, but I'm fed up with some shitty bureaucracy making rules just to keep itself relevant.

[Mike DC]

            
Washington is increasing CAFE rules because that is what most of the public wants.  

Higher CAFE regs or higher gas prices - we have to pick one or the other.  The public's opinion on this is crystal clear.  It has been for decades.



And even if it wasn't an either/or choice, a decent portion of the public would probably STILL vote for higher CAFE regs just on principle.  

[myk]

They can do whatever they want to with them new-fangled cars and trucks, as long as they leave my current stuff alone.  They can pry the keys to my V8's and my AR rifles out of my cold, dead hands!

[resq302]

           
Washington is increasing CAFE rules because that is what most of the public wants.  

Higher CAFE regs or higher gas prices - we have to pick one or the other.  The public's opinion on this is crystal clear.  It has been for decades.



And even if it wasn't an either/or choice, a decent portion of the public would probably STILL vote for higher CAFE regs just on principle.  

I have to disagree Mike DC.  If the public wanted this then we would see more hybrid or electric cars on the road than gasoline powered vehicles and that is not the case.  You also really can't compare higher CAFE regs to higher gas prices.  Lets face it, the price of gas skyrockets due to some stupid morons "speculating" that consumption will go up so the price goes up yet because of the heat or poor economy, people do not go on vacation causing a surplus in the gasoline.  Essentially, this should make the price of gas drop yet it still remains the same or goes up.

I also disagree with the whole CAFE thing.  How many contractors or landscapers use a truck larger than say an F150 or other 1/2 ton truck for their business?  I know with towing a 9000 trailer that I need  a V-8 whenever I tow my car to a long distance show.  I am not about to settle for a V-6 and crawl up a hill causing a traffic back up.  Again, I would rather then buy a used truck and fix it up vs. having to deal with all the crap that a new one would have.

This country is going to be its own demise with all these regulations and other issues.  Time for someone to get into office and fix it!  I am a huge supporter of taking care of our own country before we go rushing to other countries aid when they have a problem.  The US has its own problems and our government does not seem to be trying to help our own out yet we are the first country that goes in and helps others out.  Maybe it is time for us to start collecting on favors we've done to other countries to help us out!

[Ghoste]

I think you both are a little right.  I think the majority of the public are under the impression that if the government mandate enormous mpg figures then it will magically happen across the board.  Brian is right, the majority do NOT want the hybrids and electrics and the free market system is proof of that.  The public WANT big suvs and such but they also think the huge powerful beasts should get 60mpg because the majority of people have no more knowledge of cars than making flying carpets.

[Cooter]

They can do whatever they want to with them new-fangled cars and trucks, as long as they leave my current stuff alone.  They can pry the keys to my V8's and my AR rifles out of my cold, dead hands!

Be careful what you say, for there might come a day in the near future that BOTH might just happen.

[Mike DC]

I have to disagree Mike DC.  If the public wanted this then we would see more hybrid or electric cars on the road than gasoline powered vehicles and that is not the case.  You also really can't compare higher CAFE regs to higher gas prices.  Lets face it, the price of gas skyrockets due to some stupid morons "speculating" that consumption will go up so the price goes up yet because of the heat or poor economy, people do not go on vacation causing a surplus in the gasoline.  Essentially, this should make the price of gas drop yet it still remains the same or goes up.

Oil is a commodity like steel or copper.  Speculators can temporarily inflate prices but the long term average price is just supply & demand.  (I would support more drilling in the USA but it's not going to make a big difference in the big picture.)


If the govt does not control the efficiency of the vehicle fleet then the US public will buy more gasoline  . . . until gas prices inevitably rise, and the economy stalls . . . and the public starts guillotining everyone in Washington over it.  So, Washington treats the problem by rationing the fuel in each individual car:  They increase CAFE regs.  It really is a choice between higher fuel costs or higher vehicle costs.  


--------------------------------------------------

I think you both are a little right.  I think the majority of the public are under the impression that if the government mandate enormous mpg figures then it will magically happen across the board.  Brian is right, the majority do NOT want the hybrids and electrics and the free market system is proof of that.  The public WANT big suvs and such but they also think the huge powerful beasts should get 60mpg because the majority of people have no more knowledge of cars than making flying carpets.

Exactly.  

[Ghoste]

Do you think the government allows high CAFE standards as a way to ration gasoline and thereby control the economy though, or do you think they allow because the environmental lobby is so strong at the moment and they think it's a sly way to get votes?  For that matter, how much does the governement control the EPA at all?  Are they not a bit of a free rein horse?

[myk]

They can do whatever they want to with them new-fangled cars and trucks, as long as they leave my current stuff alone.  They can pry the keys to my V8's and my AR rifles out of my cold, dead hands!

Be careful what you say, for there might come a day in the near future that BOTH might just happen.

Well then I guess I'll have to look up joinamilitiagroup.com and move out to the sticks or something to protect myself...

[Mike DC]

Do you think the government allows high CAFE standards as a way to ration gasoline and thereby control the economy though, or do you think they allow because the environmental lobby is so strong at the moment and they think it's a sly way to get votes?  For that matter, how much does the governement control the EPA at all?  Are they not a bit of a free rein horse?

Probably none of it is as well planned out as I make it sound.  Certainly not today anyway.  There is a limit to how much the USA can affect oil prices because it's a worldwide market.  We can't lower worldwide oil prices significantly by drilling a little more oil inside US, and the same principle means we also can't decrease our domestic consumption a little bit and lower worldwide prices very much either.  

CAFE was originally a knee-jerk result of the 1970s gas crises.  Now it's probably more the result of environmental stuff and foreign oil dependency concerns.


But regardless of the intent of the laws at one time or another, I think it does work the way I described, at least to some degree.  If we hadn't used CAFE regs for the last 30 years then we would have higher gas prices in the present.  And more CAFE regs will help slow (but not stop) the rising prices in the future.  The price effects wouldn't be big & obvious just from looking at 5 years of data.  But it would be there in the longer term.

 

[Ghoste]

Am I correct that the EPA has a very broad mandate these days and a very long arms length from anything within DC as far as an ability to control what they do?

[Mike DC]

           
If the EPA was really as powerful as the Right complains then we would have a lot fewer environmental problems.  And if the EPA was really as weak as the Left complains then there would be a lot fewer dirty industries moving overseas.



I don't see the EPA alone being able to put a headlock on the automakers as tight as this new round of CAFE is doing.  Not without our foreign oil dependence (and the indirect problems it causes) also playing a big role in it.

[1974dodgecharger]

WELL FCKIN PUT!!!!!!! 

Wow, I don't get the truck thing.    People use them for, you know, towing and stuff.   The new ford EcoBoost V6 is REALLY impressive (tows 12K lbs), but what about trucks bigger than 1/2 ton?

I guess they'll have to use the old 'Toyota 4 cylinder 1 ton' formula:  90 horse 22R motor with so much gearing it takes 200 seconds to get up to speed, but can pull a 7.5K lb trailer.   Just not uphill very fast

On a related note:  This is why our country is jacked.   Politicians (meaning lawyers by trade mostly) make laws based on engineering, but have no engineering knowledge.   They make our federal budget, but few of them went to school for economics or even understand it.    They have the sole power to send our troops into harm's way and declare war, but almost none of them spent a single day in the military.

This is why our infrastructure crumbles, our debt is through the roof, and our troops are off fighting pointless oil wars.   The wrong people are leading this country.     This is what happens when a distracted public would rather watch reality TV than fix their own nation.    When they wake up it's too late.

Yeah I realize these two things seem unrelated, but I'm fed up with some shitty bureaucracy making rules just to keep itself relevant.

[aussiemuscle]

On a related note:  This is why our country is jacked.  

At least your country doesn't blindly follow Europe

Fortunately, a TT 4 cylinder engine can have as much power as old 6s, also the six can have as much power as old V8s.
trouble is here they are trying to kill of the sixes as well 

There is a limit to how much the USA can affect oil prices because it's a worldwide market...Oil is a commodity like steel or copper.....

You do realise oil is not a market controlled commodity, don't you? (hint: no country can sell it's oil cheaper than world price because of OPEC)

[Mike DC]

You do realise oil is not a market controlled commodity, don't you? (hint: no country can sell it's oil cheaper than world price because of OPEC)

OPEC has power because one of their countries still has about 2 ounces of extra producing capacity.  Nobody else on earth has any to spare at all, let alone enough to replace OPEC if they go on strike.  

Supply and demand, that's all it really is.  

[Ghoste]

Yes, OPEC holds the world for ransom and then fanatics come out of those areas hating the western world for only wanting their oil (among many other sins of course).  Ironic.

[resq302]

I beg to differ with you Mike.  The US has a ton of oil to spare, reserves, untapped oil under the ground, plants that are shut down could be reopened, etc.  So, yes, it is out there, but in the US too many tree huggers cry the blues when we try to get this.  Don't forget that we now recycle oil too.  Where is all of that used oil going?  Im sure that something can be done with that.  Yes, I know Valvoline has the recycled oil now on the market in the "green" bottles, but why are they the only ones doing it?

Same arguement can be said for these "wonderful miracle cure" electric cars.... who thinks that the power grid can handle the demand if say, 10 people on a span of a 4 block section gets these cars?  Aside from having to upgrade the electric in their own home to do so in charging up their cars.  Then what about when the batteries die?  It isn't going to be some small battery like the gas powered engine cars have.

[adauto]

And heaven forbid that the EPA would allow updates on our refineries..........

[HPP]

Brian is right, the majority do NOT want the hybrids and electrics and the free market system is proof of that.  .

I saw something recently that said of the electric and hybrid buying public, only 35% of current owners would buy another similar vehicle after owning one. When you consider how small a percentage that segment of the market is to begin with, to think 65% of them woldn't repeat their purchase, I think that pretty much signifys a failed attempt to foist those vehciles on us.

[resq302]

Honestly, with being in the AACA, they had all electric cars out back in the early 1900s.  It failed back then and I have a feeling it is going to fail again this time around.

[Ghoste]

And for largely the same reasons.

[elacruze]

Here's the balancing act.

We have players; Environmentalists, Oil industry, Auto industry, EPA, and Consumers. (Minor players of course such as Caterpillar and the Rail industry, and Trucking industry)

Environmentalists want zero emissions.
Oil industry wants as much oil consumed as possible.
Auto industry wants as many cars on the road as possible.
EPA wants traditional governmental administrative bloat and self-preservation.
Consumers want Everything.

It doesn't take long to see that these players are all in conflict with each other, and in conflict with their own unrealistic desires and expectations.

However.
Environmentalists vote, and they infiltrate positions of authority.
Oil industry spends enormous $$ on lobbying legislation.
Auto industry spends $$ on lobbying and advertising.

EPA is the lynchpin; they have the authority and obligation to mandate all the other players. The really bad part is that they are strangled by their environmentalism vs. political consequenses vs. technological possibility.

So what we end up with is a weird balance that serves no distinct purpose. The reason that most American market cars get about 32mpg max is because the amount of energy it takes to move a car down the road doesn't change. The ratio of emissions (let's limit the conversation to unburned hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen) is set arbitrarily by the EPA. The amount of energy you can get out of a gallon of gas is finite, but the efficiency is not-however, the efficiency is constrained by the emissions edict. The Oil interests want to use more oil, so they want high horsepower engines with high unburned hydrocarbons. The Environmentalists want the least harmful emissions so they want tiny efficient engines with no unburned hydrocarbons. So the EPA has to balance these things with an arbitrary mandate. If you are willing to increase oxides of nitrogen, you can reduce unburned hydrocarbons to nearly zero. This should be the ultimate goal, as it reduces UH but also reduces the overall volume of emitted polution, because the gallons per mile travelled goes way up and consumption goes way down. Neither Oil interests nor most consumers want tiny weak efficient engines, and they vote so the EPA has to serve many masters to maintain their existence.

Clear?

If the goal was actually to preserve resources, maximize efficiency, and reduce overall emissions the EPA would not constrain manufacturers with arbitrary emissions requirements hammered out by special interests-they would look at the overall mass of emissions, weigh the damage of each component of emissions, and assign a percentage appropriate to balance the quantity and damage of emissions to the minimum possible. That is precisely what we do not do.

[Ghoste]

Make no mistake though, the environmental lobby is huge too.  And you forgot one of the players, politicians who want to remain in power so desperately that they are willing to sell their mothers soul for a single vote.