TRIPLE GOLD OE DAYTONA DISPLAY 2012 Mopar Nationals

[ECS]

Let me add that I actually agree with folks who say that stuff like this doesn't really matter.  Cars are not what's important in life.  People are what's important.

Exactly Gene!  If you recall I also told you I would do ANYTHING I could to help you beat my worthless OE score.  According to mike, I was "jealous" of his score but YOUR Daytona scored even higher than anything he has entered.  According to Mike's accusations and logic, I will soon be attacking you because you are now the closest recipient to the OE score we received with my lowly Valiant. 

With that said Gene please let me say.......FANTASTIC job on your Daytona and your OE results!  It is truly the Best, most Authentic Daytona Restoration on the Planet.  I couldn't be more proud for you and Vance.  Thank you for allowing me to be a very small part of your tremendous success!

[Mytur Binsdirti]

 Cars are not what's important in life.  People are what's important.

That's the way I'va always felt. It's just too bad all these other mooks around here can't be more like you and I.  

[ECS]

2. There were absolutely NO "perfect scores" at the 2012 MCACN show. Zip-zero-zilch. Regardless of who your reliable sources may be, the facts are the facts.

Bob Ashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

Hello Bob,
Thank you for taking the time to come here to clarify the Facts.  Below is commentary written by Cliff Gromer of Mopar Action Magazine.  He has directly contradicted the comment you made regarding any "perfect" scores being awarded at your 2012 event.  If you have been following these threads you will notice that this type of false information has been common place concerning the white Daytona which was part of your Show.  Do you have any idea where the contradictory comments made by Cliff Gromer may have originated?  If they did not come from any of your constituents, one would conclude that Cliff Gromer was responsible for this false information or it was given to him by Tony D'Agostino or Mike Mancini.

[Bashton]

2. There were absolutely NO "perfect scores" at the 2012 MCACN show. Zip-zero-zilch. Regardless of who your reliable sources may be, the facts are the facts.

Bob Ashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

Hello Bob,
Thank you for taking the time to come here to clarify the Facts.  Below is commentary written by Cliff Gromer of Mopar Action Magazine.  He has directly contradicted the comment you made regarding any "perfect" scores being awarded at your 2012 event.  If you have been following these threads you will notice that this type of false information has been common place concerning the white Daytona which was part of your Show.  Do you have any idea where the contradictory comments made by Cliff Gromer may have originated?  If they did not come from any of your constituents, one would conclude that Cliff Gromer was responsible for this false information or it was given to him by Tony D'Agostino or Mike Mancini.

Since I have never spoken to Cliff Gromer and he wasn't quoting me (or anyone else for that matter), it would have to be an assumption on your part as to who provided any information to him. As far as Tony or Mike are concerned, I don't think either one of them gives a hoot whether the car scored a 1,000 points or 999, as either reflects the high quality and workmanship that went into the restoration.

This thread kind of reminds me of that commercial with the "French Model" I see on TV.

Let's remember, any of the cars that achieve this level are indeed the best of the best and a select few. I am grateful for the owners and the restorers who choose to make the commitment to restoring them and especially for sharing them with all of us for our viewing pleasure. And that is what it should be...pleasure, plain and simple.

Thanks;

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

[moparstuart]

2. There were absolutely NO "perfect scores" at the 2012 MCACN show. Zip-zero-zilch. Regardless of who your reliable sources may be, the facts are the facts.

Bob Ashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

Hello Bob,
Thank you for taking the time to come here to clarify the Facts.  Below is commentary written by Cliff Gromer of Mopar Action Magazine.  He has directly contradicted the comment you made regarding any "perfect" scores being awarded at your 2012 event.  If you have been following these threads you will notice that this type of false information has been common place concerning the white Daytona which was part of your Show.  Do you have any idea where the contradictory comments made by Cliff Gromer may have originated?  If they did not come from any of your constituents, one would conclude that Cliff Gromer was responsible for this false information or it was given to him by Tony D'Agostino or Mike Mancini.

Since I have never spoken to Cliff Gromer and he wasn't quoting me (or anyone else for that matter), it would have to be an assumption on your part as to who provided any information to him. As far as Tony or Mike are concerned, I don't think either one of them gives a hoot whether the car scored a 1,000 points or 999, as either reflects the high quality and workmanship that went into the restoration.

This thread kind of reminds me of that commercial with the "French Model" I see on TV.

Let's remember, any of the cars that achieve this level are indeed the best of the best and a select few. I am grateful for the owners and the restorers who choose to make the commitment to restoring them and especially for sharing them with all of us for our viewing pleasure. And that is what it should be...pleasure, plain and simple.

Thanks;

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

I said it before  BUT WOW   

[resq302]

Hi Bob,

I have to say, reading all the shady stuff (and now you saying that you did not talk to Cliff) you have to wonder why exactly one would go to all this trouble to hide or cover up the facts if it didn't matter to them whether they scored a 999 or 1000?  You are right that these are all nice cars but if they are all nice cars, why do people try to hide the fact about not having any rust or rot on the car when there clearly was?  Then agree with people but then saying that the floors are not considered part of the floor?

Honestly, how would you feel if you just awarded Best of Show to a vehicle (be it ANY vehicle) under a false pretense that say it was all original metal, engine, etc yet they covered up the fact that they used reproduction pieces while all the long claiming they had all original paperwork and rolled the odometer back to make it look like a low mileage, unrestored car for prior pics to support that it was "all original metal" due to the low mileage.

Im sorry, but if it were me, I would be absolutely pissed off to the enth degree.  Especially if I was the one buying the car down the road!

[Bashton]

Hi Bob,

I have to say, reading all the shady stuff (and now you saying that you did not talk to Cliff) you have to wonder why exactly one would go to all this trouble to hide or cover up the facts if it didn't matter to them whether they scored a 999 or 1000?  You are right that these are all nice cars but if they are all nice cars, why do people try to hide the fact about not having any rust or rot on the car when there clearly was?  Then agree with people but then saying that the floors are not considered part of the floor?

Honestly, how would you feel if you just awarded Best of Show to a vehicle (be it ANY vehicle) under a false pretense that say it was all original metal, engine, etc yet they covered up the fact that they used reproduction pieces while all the long claiming they had all original paperwork and rolled the odometer back to make it look like a low mileage, unrestored car for prior pics to support that it was "all original metal" due to the low mileage.

Im sorry, but if it were me, I would be absolutely pissed off to the enth degree.  Especially if I was the one buying the car down the road!

You lost me here. I am not sure what the history is of this car is, and rarely any of the cars being judged, and as far as our judging goes, that does not have any relevance to our judging process. Also, as previously stated, we do not require original sheetmetal and we allow reproduction parts that are deemed acceptable. At the MCACN show, The car is judged according to our sheets based on what our judging team see's, not on any story or previous history. If the car is later sold, I would hope the potential buyer would do his/her due diligence to make sure they were making a sound buying decision. Is MCACN judging the "standard" for our hobby? Absolutely not. Is a Gold Level Concours award exceptionally hard to earn and something to be extremely proud of? Absolutely.

It appears to me that there are people on this site that have some kind of problem or personal vendetta with some of the parties involved, and this is an area I have no interest in. If someone has a problem with another person, I believe they should take that offline and either discuss it or forget it. Life is short and most people actually are in this for the fun and fellowship, not to get into a soap opera situation of clashed personalities. Bottom line is, all of the cars discussed in this thread are fine restorations, perhaps some of the finest, and are all worthy of the accolades they have rightfully earned.

Seriously, this is supposed to be fun, and even though I am one who makes my living doing this, I would walk away in a minute if it stops being fun.

Thanks;

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

[Bashton]

I have to add another thing; at the MCACN show, we offer a wide variety of ways to participate, including what we call "Non Comp/Pick Eligible". I find that many of our participants prefer this, including a large majority of owners of some of the finest and rarest cars in our hobby, and we welcome them.

Being somewhat subjective, as realistically nobody can categorically state what is really black and white, (especially with our beloved Mopars!) I believe that much of our continued success is due to this availability. For example, we had 5  of the '71 Hemi 'Cuda convertibles in our show in 2010 and 6 of the 8 Trans Am convertibles in the show last year, and not a single one of them was judged. I guess just having the opportunity to own one, share it with others and be the temporary caretaker is enough for some owners.

For those who do wish to participate in the judging process, I can certainly appreciate the dedication,  determination and effort.

(Steps off of the Soapbox)

Thanks;

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

[resq302]

Hi Bob,

I am well aware that your show offers multiple ways to compete.  I had a few friends out there this year.  Some with and some without cars.  All of them  got what they set out to achieve be it with their chevelle convertible or mopars which they brought.  From what I have heard, you have a very nice show and my compliments on that.  Might you be able to clarify what your judging sheets actually score on / for?  I know you said original sheet metal is not required but am curious as to how a vehicle would be judged in say, a stock class or even a light modified class? 

I don't know about anyone else on here but I have no personal vendettas against anyone.  Do I dislike people that are liers, cheats, and people that bend the truth to benefit themselves?  Absolutely!

Brian

[paul jacobs]

Mr Bashton,

    I first want to say I have judged for 20 years and know what a thankless job it is.  I have also never had the opportunity to attend your show but I hear it's very nice.  With that said, I have a few observations.
    I think the problem lies in the fact that your show gives out these "Gold" awards and it is a mis-representation of what a Gold award has always stood for.  
    In the past, "OE Gold" has set the standard for excellence in restorations based off of a production line car-flaws and all.  It does take into account all the NOS/OE parts and correct application and execution of said parts-after all, anyone can throw a car togther.  
    You have a program that's based on a totally different set of standards-your standards. We could have all these 1000 point Gold winners out there with basecoat/clearcoat paint, Year One reproduction parts, and incorrect assembly procedures and have the whole world snowballed into thinking their car is the best.  This is actually a slap in the face to the competitors who do achieve such a standard whether it be the Mopar Nationals or Bloomington Gold.  
    And judging is not really subjective as you say-it's objective based on years of research and a set of collective minds that can prove their case with years of photo's and factory documentation.  If you base your judging on anything less, and don't disclose to the world, you open yourself up to a lot of criticism.  People will accuse you of giving show sponsors preferred treatment & changing scores!  
    I hope in the future you guys can change a few things that will prevent this kind of issue because you would have a premiere event.
    GENE-it's nice of you to take the high road, but speaking the truth is indeed taking the high road.  You are very humble and I know you don't care for controversy, but enough is enough.  You have, bar none, the best Daytona on the face of the planet.  The years of research that Vance and you did deserves a historical award in itself.
    Now, I'm off MY soapbox.

[resq302]

Very nicely put, Paul!   

[ECS]

1000.......

I had to go back and read your words of wisdom Paul.  At first I thought your "1000" was referencing sponsorship fees to these shows.  I always find it comical that the folks that usually do the best are the ones who sponsor the event that they themselves are "competing" in.  They don't have confidence in their work so they sponsor the event for the "extra credit" possibilities.  I know any event that I ever sponsored was in done the years that I WAS NOT competing in to make sure there would be no accusation of impropriety.  But what do I know?  I'm was recently told I was "jealous" of a guy not qualified to sweep the bathroom floors of my business!

[hemi68charger]

... You have, bar none, the best Daytona on the face of the planet.  The years of research that Vance and you did deserves a historical award in itself.
    ...

Here Here.. I don't know the details of the other two to the level I know and have seen with Geno's tireless documentation via his thread on this Board. But, at MOST, they could tie for the best. I doubt with all my Mopar-soul there is another Daytona better. I don't claim to be some Guru of Mopar, but I've been around awhile ( going on 35 years of exposure to these car even before they had the level of pedigree they have now - Hell, I drove my 1st v-code Charger as my one-and-only daily driver in the proverbial Florida-everyday-rain ).... So, I've seen them bone stock, modified, restored, re-restored and yeap, re-re-restored......

[hemigeno]

    GENE-it's nice of you to take the high road, but speaking the truth is indeed taking the high road.  You are very humble and I know you don't care for controversy, but enough is enough.  You have, bar none, the best Daytona on the face of the planet.  The years of research that Vance and you did deserves a historical award in itself.

You're very kind with your comments, Paul - and coming from a person with a great deal of knowledge and skill (as exemplified by your own stellar restoration of John's Daytona plus other OE Gold & Best Of Show winners), I'm particularly honored you'd say that.



I will add a thing or two about the MCACN judging format.  It is a bit confusing when their top award is similar in name to the Mopar Nationals'.  Having gone through the MCACN judging program twice and the 'Nats OE Certification once, I never got the impression that it was the same style or type of judging itself - nor did I ever feel that Bob Ashton misrepresented anything at all to me (speaking for myself, of course).  It's possible I felt that way because before participating myself, I had talked to others who were already familiar with the judging format?    MCACN caters to a much broader audience than just Mopars, and it would be a physical impossibility to retain enough judges with enough OE-specific knowlege to assess all the vehicles in the time (and space!!) available.  I think it's a great show which offers something completely different than the Mopar Nationals.  Whether it's clear from the award name or not, the two judging formats are apples and oranges.  Paul, I know you're looking at this from a brand-identity perspective, and you have a compelling reason to do so in your new position in the 'Nats OE program... but I've never felt myself that Bob/MCACN is working against or trying to water down what you and the 'Nats are trying to accomplish.

[Bashton]

Mr Bashton,

    I first want to say I have judged for 20 years and know what a thankless job it is.  I have also never had the opportunity to attend your show but I hear it's very nice.  With that said, I have a few observations.
    I think the problem lies in the fact that your show gives out these "Gold" awards and it is a mis-representation of what a Gold award has always stood for.  
    In the past, "OE Gold" has set the standard for excellence in restorations based off of a production line car-flaws and all.  It does take into account all the NOS/OE parts and correct application and execution of said parts-after all, anyone can throw a car togther.  
    You have a program that's based on a totally different set of standards-your standards. We could have all these 1000 point Gold winners out there with basecoat/clearcoat paint, Year One reproduction parts, and incorrect assembly procedures and have the whole world snowballed into thinking their car is the best.  This is actually a slap in the face to the competitors who do achieve such a standard whether it be the Mopar Nationals or Bloomington Gold.  
    And judging is not really subjective as you say-it's objective based on years of research and a set of collective minds that can prove their case with years of photo's and factory documentation.  If you base your judging on anything less, and don't disclose to the world, you open yourself up to a lot of criticism.  People will accuse you of giving show sponsors preferred treatment & changing scores!  
    I hope in the future you guys can change a few things that will prevent this kind of issue because you would have a premiere event.
    GENE-it's nice of you to take the high road, but speaking the truth is indeed taking the high road.  You are very humble and I know you don't care for controversy, but enough is enough.  You have, bar none, the best Daytona on the face of the planet.  The years of research that Vance and you did deserves a historical award in itself.
    Now, I'm off MY soapbox.

Paul;

We can certainly agree to disagree; our programs are indeed apples and oranges, and one is not any better than the other. As far as your reference to any misrepresentation of the terminology "Gold", this is something that goes back to the Olympics and probably much further than either of us know, and your opinion is just that, your opinion. And so you know, acheiveing Gold status at BG or the Mopar Nats does not guarantee Gold status at MCACN, as the judging and criteria are indeed different, and always will be. Better or worse? Well, you and the participants of all of the shows can decide for themselves on that one. Achieving Gold status at ANY of the mentioned events is certainly something to be proud of, and a something that takes a lot of dedication and commitment.

I am certainly surprised to see you make the statement that a particular car is "the best Daytona on the planet". Have YOU personally inspected these three cars and every other Daytona on the planet? Don't get me wrong, all three of these cars are spectacular and as stated before, deserve all the accolades they have earned, but seriously.... and perhaps it IS the best, but who would be qualified to make such a statement? Certainly not you or me.

I also extend an invitation to you to check us out in person before you cast judgement and make statements about how we do business, as we are long past establishing ourselves as a "Premier Event" and the amount of complaints regarding our judging is consistently extremely low every year. (Can YOU say that?) This is something I am very proud of, since we employ over 90 judges and we judge over 300 of the 550+ cars that participate in our show annually. Perhaps we will never meet your standards, but rest assured, we will be around for a long time, enjoying the cars and more importantly, the history and the people. Will mistakes be made? Certainly. I indeed believe ALL judging, whether your style, mine or anyone else's needs to always keep an open mind, listen to all input and always be willing to learn.

Thanks;

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

[Bashton]

    GENE-it's nice of you to take the high road, but speaking the truth is indeed taking the high road.  You are very humble and I know you don't care for controversy, but enough is enough.  You have, bar none, the best Daytona on the face of the planet.  The years of research that Vance and you did deserves a historical award in itself.

You're very kind with your comments, Paul - and coming from a person with a great deal of knowledge and skill (as exemplified by your own stellar restoration of John's Daytona plus other OE Gold & Best Of Show winners), I'm particularly honored you'd say that.



I will add a thing or two about the MCACN judging format.  It is a bit confusing when their top award is similar in name to the Mopar Nationals'.  Having gone through the MCACN judging program twice and the 'Nats OE Certification once, I never got the impression that it was the same style or type of judging itself - nor did I ever feel that Bob Ashton misrepresented anything at all to me (speaking for myself, of course).  It's possible I felt that way because before participating myself, I had talked to others who were already familiar with the judging format?    MCACN caters to a much broader audience than just Mopars, and it would be a physical impossibility to retain enough judges with enough OE-specific knowlege to assess all the vehicles in the time (and space!!) available.  I think it's a great show which offers something completely different than the Mopar Nationals.  Whether it's clear from the award name or not, the two judging formats are apples and oranges.  Paul, I know you're looking at this from a brand-identity perspective, and you have a compelling reason to do so in your new position in the 'Nats OE program... but I've never felt myself that Bob/MCACN is working against or trying to water down what you and the 'Nats are trying to accomplish.

Thanks for your post; it is nice to hear from someone who HAS actually participated in both of the events and can offer an educated observation.

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

[resq302]

Mr Bashton,

    I first want to say I have judged for 20 years and know what a thankless job it is.  I have also never had the opportunity to attend your show but I hear it's very nice.  With that said, I have a few observations.
    I think the problem lies in the fact that your show gives out these "Gold" awards and it is a mis-representation of what a Gold award has always stood for.  
    In the past, "OE Gold" has set the standard for excellence in restorations based off of a production line car-flaws and all.  It does take into account all the NOS/OE parts and correct application and execution of said parts-after all, anyone can throw a car togther.  
    You have a program that's based on a totally different set of standards-your standards. We could have all these 1000 point Gold winners out there with basecoat/clearcoat paint, Year One reproduction parts, and incorrect assembly procedures and have the whole world snowballed into thinking their car is the best.  This is actually a slap in the face to the competitors who do achieve such a standard whether it be the Mopar Nationals or Bloomington Gold.  
    And judging is not really subjective as you say-it's objective based on years of research and a set of collective minds that can prove their case with years of photo's and factory documentation.  If you base your judging on anything less, and don't disclose to the world, you open yourself up to a lot of criticism.  People will accuse you of giving show sponsors preferred treatment & changing scores!  
    I hope in the future you guys can change a few things that will prevent this kind of issue because you would have a premiere event.
    GENE-it's nice of you to take the high road, but speaking the truth is indeed taking the high road.  You are very humble and I know you don't care for controversy, but enough is enough.  You have, bar none, the best Daytona on the face of the planet.  The years of research that Vance and you did deserves a historical award in itself.
    Now, I'm off MY soapbox.

Mr Bashton,

Since you explained everything else, could you please answer Paul's comment on this part in bold?

[held1823]

he answered, before being asked. check reply #'s 148 and 149 on the previous page, where he made it clear that had not occurred.

There was NEVER any talk of potential sponsorship deals or any other of your implied incentives made to the MCACN show. We quite simply value our integrity much more than any possible financial gain to our bottom line.

The only time a point total would be changed after the participant signs off would be if a clerical number error was made when the judges write down a point deduction, and our tallying crew caught it.

[Bashton]

he answered, before being asked. check reply #'s 148 and 149 on the previous page, where he made it clear that had not occurred.

There was NEVER any talk of potential sponsorship deals or any other of your implied incentives made to the MCACN show. We quite simply value our integrity much more than any possible financial gain to our bottom line.

The only time a point total would be changed after the participant signs off would be if a clerical number error was made when the judges write down a point deduction, and our tallying crew caught it.

Thank you, held1823;

And as I said, we can agree to disagree, as I firmly believe that judging is indeed a combination of objective and subjective. Simply put, there are always area's that can never be "black or white" especially when referring to judging production line automobiles. I certainly can acknowledge your opinion if you care to disagree.

Thanks;

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member
www.mcacn.com

[resq302]

Ok, I apologize, I must have missed that and just would have thought it would have been addressed (if not referred to) with the other reply.  I got it now, no preferential treatment will be given to contestants especially if they are a sponsor of the show.   

[Mr. 4-Speed]

hey guys,

Life is short, matching numbers or not..drive the wheels off of it and have some fun!

best regards,
Marcel, the Netherlands

[moparstuart]

Ok, I apologize, I must have missed that and just would have thought it would have been addressed (if not referred to) with the other reply.  I got it now, no preferential treatment will be given to contestants especially if they are a sponsor of the show.   

I dont buy into that BS , If you don't want stones thrown or people doubting . The right thing to do would not allow contestants to be affiliated with any sponsors and vise versa .  Or Impropriety will be called every time 

[richRTSE]

Ok, I apologize, I must have missed that and just would have thought it would have been addressed (if not referred to) with the other reply.  I got it now, no preferential treatment will be given to contestants especially if they are a sponsor of the show.   

I dont buy into that BS , If you don't want stones thrown or people doubting . The right thing to do would not allow contestants to be affiliated with any sponsors and vise versa .  Or Impropriety will be called every time 

thats a tough one there...where do you draw the line?

...that car can't be in because the owner is a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because the restorer is a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because it has reproduction parts from a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because the previous owner was a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because the owner's wife's brother's neighbor is a sponsor....


all you need is judges with integrity and none of that other stuff matters. 

[moparstuart]

Ok, I apologize, I must have missed that and just would have thought it would have been addressed (if not referred to) with the other reply.  I got it now, no preferential treatment will be given to contestants especially if they are a sponsor of the show.  

I dont buy into that BS , If you don't want stones thrown or people doubting . The right thing to do would not allow contestants to be affiliated with any sponsors and vise versa .  Or Impropriety will be called every time  

thats a tough one there...where do you draw the line?

...that car can't be in because the owner is a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because the restorer is a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because it has reproduction parts from a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because the previous owner was a sponsor...
...that car can't be in because the owner's wife's brother's neighbor is a sponsor....


all you need is judges with integrity and none of that other stuff matters.  

The top two on your list absolutely , the rest not so much .  

[69_500]

I would have to agree with Paul on this one. Gene's Daytona is the nicest Restored Daytona I have ever seen. I certainly have not seen every one out there but I would venture to say I have seen probably half of the Daytona's produced.