New flex fan and shroud

[General_01]

My car was always running hot. I knew it was because I didn't have a shroud and I was running a 14" electric fan. I decided to get an aluminum fan shroud. The plan was to use my existing electric fan. Unfortunatly, while doing mock up I found that there was not enought space between the water pump pulley and the radiator for mounting the fan to the shroud. I thought about using a grinder and making the hole in the shroud the outline of the fan so I could mount the fan to the radiator and have the shroud surround the fan. I decided I didn't want to take the radiator out to do that.

I ended up going to O'Reilly's Auto Parts and getting a Hayes 19" flex fan and a 2" spacer. I have had it idleing for about 10-15 minutes in the garage twice today and the temp has stayed right about 195-200. Hopefully I will get some time on the road with it tonight and see how it does.

[General_01]

Well, looks like it's back to the drawing board. Went for a drive and the temp was about 215-220. Only dropped a little when I got on the highway and did about 60mph for about 10 miles.

Maybe I will take the electric fan and put it on the front as a pusher. Maybe that will help.

Cars....gotta love 'em.

[A383Wing]

I doubt putting the fan in front of yer radiator will solve yer overheat issue....with that radiator and fan blade, it should do it's job.

I'm thinking you got some other over looked issue causing engine temp to rise

Bryan

[bill440rt]

Having that shroud setup with the fan like that isn't helping matters much. The fan should sit inside the shroud for proper air flow. The way it is now the shroud is actually diminishing air flow, and the fan is not doing it's job. Kinda like sucking air through a straw.

[1974dodgecharger]

Having that shroud setup with the fan like that isn't helping matters much. The fan should sit inside the shroud for proper air flow. The way it is now the shroud is actually diminishing air flow, and the fan is not doing it's job. Kinda like sucking air through a straw.

was going to say something like that.....noticed his shroud and fan were not matched in within each other.

[myk]

Agreed.  Either you get the proper shroud and fan 'combo that has the proper relationship to one another, or you get the biggest electric fan you can fit in there set up as a puller.  On another note, did you say your 'temps got up to about 220?  Was that idling and in slow moving traffic?  220 isn't that bad, actually.  I'm sure mine runs around there as well.  Finally, I ran without a shroud for years, and never had cooling issues...

[General_01]

Looks like I need something to go around the fan then....

Guess I will take the shroud off and see if I can do something about that. In the mean time I guess I will see how it works without a shroud.

Thanks for the input guys.

[charger Downunder]

You could use a smaller water pump pulley to make the fan turn faster. Fix up that shroud first.

[c00nhunterjoe]

You don't have the famous 440 source water pump housing do you? Thermostate hanging up? With that big aluminum radiator I cant see why you are hitting 220 while cruising at speed and 190 idling in your driveway. Something is wrong. I have a cheasy stock 2 row with no shroud and a small flex fan and I rarely go over 200 idling around. Typicly 180 on a cruise.

[A383Wing]

Having that shroud setup with the fan like that isn't helping matters much. The fan should sit inside the shroud for proper air flow. The way it is now the shroud is actually diminishing air flow, and the fan is not doing it's job. Kinda like sucking air through a straw.

well crap...I didn't notice that the fan was not inside the shroud opening

Bryan

[General_01]

You don't have the famous 440 source water pump housing do you? Thermostate hanging up? With that big aluminum radiator I cant see why you are hitting 220 while cruising at speed and 190 idling in your driveway. Something is wrong. I have a cheasy stock 2 row with no shroud and a small flex fan and I rarely go over 200 idling around. Typicly 180 on a cruise.

To be honest, I don't remember where I got the water pump, but I do not recall ordering it from 440 Source. Just the 496 stroker kit.

I think the guys are right. I will have to do some modifying on the shroud.

[Ghoste]

That would absolutely make a big difference.  Get that set up so the blades are halfway into the shroud and it will be a lot different.  Do you have the rubber strip on the leading edge of the hood underside to make sure air does not just pass over the top of the rad?" 

[myk]

'OP by all means please don't think I was trying to recommend not running a shroud, I was just trying to make the point that without a shroud cooling should still perform adequately...

[ACUDANUT]

 You really need a fan clutch.  It keeps the water pump from going too fast and wearing out the bearings.  When that happens, the bearings go out in the water pump and and your radiator will get eatin by the fan.

[ACUDANUT]

Anyone who looks like this, I would not take seriously

[c00nhunterjoe]

You really need a fan clutch.  It keeps the water pump from going too fast and wearing out the bearings.  When that happens, the bearings go out in the water pump and and your radiator will get eatin by the fan.

You lost me. The belt\engine rpm determines the water pump speed. How will a fan clutc speed up or slow down the water pump?

[ACUDANUT]

A flex fan will pull ... but a viscous clutch lets the fan slip at higher engine speeds to cut down the wear of water pump bearings.

[c00nhunterjoe]

That I will agree with, however a clutch will not slow the speed of the pump.

[BlueSS454]

The fan needs to be half way into the shroud to be effective.  I would ditch the flex fan too, those things are completely worthless.  They draw no air at higher RPM.  A stock clutch fan with the correct shroud will do the job.

[Highbanked Hauler]

A flex fan will pull ... but a viscous clutch lets the fan slip at higher engine speeds to cut down the wear of water pump bearings.

  Correct me if I am wrong but the water pump is driven by the fan belt so it runs at the motor speed no matter weather the fan clutch is engaged or not. 

[myk]

oops

[A383Wing]

A flex fan will pull ... but a viscous clutch lets the fan slip at higher engine speeds to cut down the wear of water pump bearings.

  Correct me if I am wrong but the water pump is driven by the fan belt so it runs at the motor speed no matter weather the fan clutch is engaged or not. 

correct

[dkn1997]

The fan needs to be half way into the shroud to be effective.  I would ditch the flex fan too, those things are completely worthless.  They draw no air at higher RPM.  A stock clutch fan with the correct shroud will do the job.

I thought that was the point. Blades flex and don't draw air at higher rpm, which you don't need anyway because you are going fast enough where enough air is flowing over the rad.  If you could always be moving at 30mph+ you wouldn't even need a cooling fan. 

I had some cooling issues that I couldn't resolve on my previous setup on a 440.  stock WP housing, mild build, flowkooler pump, becool direct fit rad, shroud.  started off with electric fan, no good.  put a clutch fan on it, no good.  put a flex fan on it and temps went way down at idle immediately.  I don't know why people hate them so much.  The only drawback I can see is that they may not work as designed and still end up costing you some HP at higher RPM.  I painted mine black so it didn't stick out like a sore thumb too.

[myk]

The fan needs to be half way into the shroud to be effective.  I would ditch the flex fan too, those things are completely worthless.  They draw no air at higher RPM.  A stock clutch fan with the correct shroud will do the job.

I thought that was the point. Blades flex and don't draw air at higher rpm, which you don't need anyway because you are going fast enough where enough air is flowing over the rad.  If you could always be moving at 30mph+ you wouldn't even need a cooling fan. 

I had some cooling issues that I couldn't resolve on my previous setup on a 440.  stock WP housing, mild build, flowkooler pump, becool direct fit rad, shroud.  started off with electric fan, no good.  put a clutch fan on it, no good.  put a flex fan on it and temps went way down at idle immediately.  I don't know why people hate them so much.  The only drawback I can see is that they may not work as designed and still end up costing you some HP at higher RPM.  I painted mine black so it didn't stick out like a sore thumb too.

I forgot your setup, but aren't you running on electric fans only now, with no engine driven fan?

[General_01]

Today I figured out a way to mod the shroud. Took a little bit of grinding, but it looks like it will work well. I say "looks like" because I just finished and have not driven it yet. After my test run yesterday I parked the car and came out today to a big area of oil under the car. I think I have it narrowed down to the oil filter not sealing and oil spraying on everything underneath and the dripping on the floor.

Here are picks of the electric fan and shroud installed now. I will post results after I get some oil and a filter this week and changed it out.

[twodko]

 

[firefighter3931]

Dean, how is the water circulation ? With the cap off and the stat open does the coolant flow well at idle ? When you blip the throttle does it speed up significantly ?

You could have an air pocket in the cooling system. Get the front end up on a set of ramps and run the engine with the cap off. If there is any trapped air it will work it's way up to the highest point and bleed off.  Burping the cooling system often works if their is trapped air. 



Ron

[moparstuart]

 here is what finally solved my heating issue

     $  25.00 for the pair at a u pick it yard 97 caddy catera both pusher and do they push the air ,
 They are awesome and have a big thick seal to seal them to the front of the radiator .

[General_01]

Well, I changed the oil and filter and the leak still persists. Looks like the oil pump gasket blew. 

I still took it for a run. I let it idle in the garage and it got up to 195 and stayed there for about 5-10 minutes. I then went for a drive. Temp got up to 225 on the highway. Looks like I will take the shroud off and just go back to the electric fan and no shroud. It would only run about 200-210 that way down the highway.

As for air in the system, I will try that, but I don't think there is air in the system.

I did not look inside the radiator to look at the coolant flow before the run. Will have to do that after it cools down.

Thanks for the info Stu.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Again, cruising on the highway you don't even need a fan. I think you have something mechanicly wrong, whether a hoseis collapsing, the stat is stuck, or a bad pump. Something is causing it to overheat on the highway. A fan issue is a low speed\ idle overheat problem.

[General_01]

Well, everything is the same except the shroud and it runs hotter, so I am guessing the shroud is a problem. I know the thermostat works because I saw the temp drop when the thermostat opens when it was idleing in the garage, which means there is coolant flow.

When I change the pump gasket I will have to drain the radiator because the lower hose is right there. Since I will be that far I will be checking out everything to be sure it looks good before I put it back together and put coolant back in it.

[1974dodgecharger]

Well, everything is the same except the shroud and it runs hotter, so I am guessing the shroud is a problem. I know the thermostat works because I saw the temp drop when the thermostat opens when it was idleing in the garage, which means there is coolant flow.

When I change the pump gasket I will have to drain the radiator because the lower hose is right there. Since I will be that far I will be checking out everything to be sure it looks good before I put it back together and put coolant back in it.

like joe said maybe pump? The temp should not climb while your on the highway it should decrease due to air flow into the radiator. I had an issue with a car where the fan clutch would not kick on at idle (fullly) and my temp would climb 3/4 way hot, but while driving the temp dropped down to 1/4th especially on highway.

[General_01]

Exactly. And it would drop to about 200 without the shroud, but run about 215-220 if I was running slow for a bit(cruising). With the shroud it just goes up, so it stands to reason the shroud is a problem.

My issue before this started was cruising/slow speed cooling. That's why I thought I would get a shroud to help there. Now I have cooling issue at all speeds.

[FLG]

Could be an issue with the termostat not opening fully, or a obstruciton in the system, or a bad WP

I would remove the t-stat and drop it in a pot of boiling water to ensure its opening fully.

Also if your running a 440Source Aluminum pump housing, that would surely cause an issue do the the inherent design flaw in the casting.

Touch the radiator, any cool spots?

Another overlooked item is your rad cap, what lb cap is it? And how old is it?

If the T-stat or the housing is not an issue, and there is no air pockets or obstructions...i would than be looking at the water pump.

And finally,

If your leaking oil from where the oil pump housing meets the block or the oil pump cover..that would be the first thing id address. You dont know what side its leaking from, if its the pump side your gonna loose oil which you could deal with, if its leaking from the suction side you could loose oil AND be sucking in air...which would airate the oil and could cause some major wear on your engine components. I had an issue with a milodon pump, the casing was leaking around the pump due to it not being machined flat enough.

[squeakfinder]

Exactly. And it would drop to about 200 without the shroud, but run about 215-220 if I was running slow for a bit(cruising). With the shroud it just goes up, so it stands to reason the shroud is a problem.

My issue before this started was cruising/slow speed cooling. That's why I thought I would get a shroud to help there. Now I have cooling issue at all speeds.

Oh boy. Allot being thrown at you so I kinda hate to post this but I had an overheating problem under all conditions once. It turned out to be the radiator. As mentioned, check out the simple things first like the coolant flow to determine if the thermostat and water pump or water pump housing are o.k.

[dkn1997]

The fan needs to be half way into the shroud to be effective.  I would ditch the flex fan too, those things are completely worthless.  They draw no air at higher RPM.  A stock clutch fan with the correct shroud will do the job.

I thought that was the point. Blades flex and don't draw air at higher rpm, which you don't need anyway because you are going fast enough where enough air is flowing over the rad.  If you could always be moving at 30mph+ you wouldn't even need a cooling fan. 

I had some cooling issues that I couldn't resolve on my previous setup on a 440.  stock WP housing, mild build, flowkooler pump, becool direct fit rad, shroud.  started off with electric fan, no good.  put a clutch fan on it, no good.  put a flex fan on it and temps went way down at idle immediately.  I don't know why people hate them so much.  The only drawback I can see is that they may not work as designed and still end up costing you some HP at higher RPM.  I painted mine black so it didn't stick out like a sore thumb too.

I forgot your setup, but aren't you running on electric fans only now, with no engine driven fan?

Good memory sir!!  the setup I'm referring to was before the accident. 

[myk]

The fan needs to be half way into the shroud to be effective.  I would ditch the flex fan too, those things are completely worthless.  They draw no air at higher RPM.  A stock clutch fan with the correct shroud will do the job.

I thought that was the point. Blades flex and don't draw air at higher rpm, which you don't need anyway because you are going fast enough where enough air is flowing over the rad.  If you could always be moving at 30mph+ you wouldn't even need a cooling fan. 

I had some cooling issues that I couldn't resolve on my previous setup on a 440.  stock WP housing, mild build, flowkooler pump, becool direct fit rad, shroud.  started off with electric fan, no good.  put a clutch fan on it, no good.  put a flex fan on it and temps went way down at idle immediately.  I don't know why people hate them so much.  The only drawback I can see is that they may not work as designed and still end up costing you some HP at higher RPM.  I painted mine black so it didn't stick out like a sore thumb too.

I forgot your setup, but aren't you running on electric fans only now, with no engine driven fan?

Good memory sir!!  the setup I'm referring to was before the accident. 

You're running Spal dual fans at about 4,000 cfm's, right?

[RallyeMike]

Those flat, square shrouds are great at restricting air flow through your radiator. Compare to the smoothed, tapered stock shrouds and you'll agree. I have no doubt that it might run a little cooler at speed with the shroud missing. On the other hand, no shroud at all reduces the effectiveness of your electric fan significantly at low speed.

Still... if you are running 200-210 on the highway, I would believe that you have another problem related to the radiator size, air, water pump, or my best guess...... a thermostat that may be opening, but not all the way (since I think you said that you tested it in boiling water). Eliminate the easy stuff first: 1) Burp the system 2) Test run with the thermostat removed.

[Plum Crazy 68]

The correct pressure rated cap with a good gasket, spring in the lower rad hose, and timing too far advanced can all affect the temp.

[GPULLER]

Dean what are the dimensions of your radiator?

[firefighter3931]

Still... if you are running 200-210 on the highway, I would believe that you have another problem related to the radiator size, air, water pump, or my best guess...... a thermostat that may be opening, but not all the way (since I think you said that you tested it in boiling water). Eliminate the easy stuff first: 1) Burp the system 2) Test run with the thermostat removed.

My thoughts exactly. 

On the hwy this car should run nice and cool and it's not. There is an issue with circulation, be it with the thermostat or water pump/housing. 

Further investigation required 

I see an aftermarket housing & waterpump....who is the manufacturer of these parts ? 



Ron

[6pkrtse]

Before I rebuilt my 440 in my Charger it seem to run hotter & hotter every year. The longer I drove it, the hotter it would get, but never over heated. I tried everything as you are chasing. Once I tore the engine down for the rebuild after a cam bearing spun & a camshaft broke the coolant passages were so pluged up over 40 years of build up that hardly anything was flowing. Had the block shake & baked before the rebuild & cleaned up the passages in both the block & heads. Runs all day at 165 to 175 now.

[General_01]

All very valid points. As I said the oil pump issue has pre-empted all other issues because it isn't going anywhere without oil. I will respond back to this thread when I have found the cause of the issue. Thanks to all for the help and input.

[General_01]

Since you guys got me thinking on this I came home from work and looked through my paperwork for the parts on the car. Looks like I got the water pump and housing from a dealer called KMJ Performance in 2008. Not sure if the housing is like 440 Source or not, but it makes me wonder. I still have the stock one on the shelf if I need it.

I will have a few issues to correct when I get back at it though. While looking for the oil leak I noticed that the lower radiator hose seemed too long and has a sharper bend in it. It has a spring in it. It wasn't pinched off, but I am sure if I shorten the hose it would be better for flow. Also, I went with a Northern Aluminum radiator with two 1" rows. Fin area is 21.5Wx 19H with the tanks on the ends. It barely covers the opening. I am sure some of the air is going around the radiator instead of through it. I will probably have to fab something to keep some of the air from going around the radiator.

Thanks again for the advice. 

[firefighter3931]

Dean, the Northern aluminum rad is not your problem....those work awesome. A buddy has one on his Roots supercharged 440 and it keeps his engine cool even in 90* summertime traffic jams. 

I looked up KMJ performance and found this link : http://www.kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=2282&cat=20164923&page=1

I don't like the impeller design of that waterpump....it's like the 440 Source stuff i had on mine that was causing severe water restriction and overheating. The housing itself was also very restrictive and impeding coolant circulation. This is why i asked how the coolant was moving with the stat open. There's a stickied thread in the engine section with lots of data to crunch on so go do some reading if you haven't allready. 

Get the oil pump gasket sorted out first then start looking at your waterpump/housing to see what's going on. 


Ron

[dkn1997]

The fan needs to be half way into the shroud to be effective.  I would ditch the flex fan too, those things are completely worthless.  They draw no air at higher RPM.  A stock clutch fan with the correct shroud will do the job.

I thought that was the point. Blades flex and don't draw air at higher rpm, which you don't need anyway because you are going fast enough where enough air is flowing over the rad.  If you could always be moving at 30mph+ you wouldn't even need a cooling fan. 

I had some cooling issues that I couldn't resolve on my previous setup on a 440.  stock WP housing, mild build, flowkooler pump, becool direct fit rad, shroud.  started off with electric fan, no good.  put a clutch fan on it, no good.  put a flex fan on it and temps went way down at idle immediately.  I don't know why people hate them so much.  The only drawback I can see is that they may not work as designed and still end up costing you some HP at higher RPM.  I painted mine black so it didn't stick out like a sore thumb too.

I forgot your setup, but aren't you running on electric fans only now, with no engine driven fan?

Good memory sir!!  the setup I'm referring to was before the accident. 

You're running Spal dual fans at about 4,000 cfm's, right?

Jesus, you stalking me dude?  lol... yes something like that. it's been a long time since I put them in. 

[General_01]

Dean, the Northern aluminum rad is not your problem....those work awesome. A buddy has one on his Roots supercharged 440 and it keeps his engine cool even in 90* summertime traffic jams. 

I looked up KMJ performance and found this link : http://www.kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=2282&cat=20164923&page=1

I don't like the impeller design of that waterpump....it's like the 440 Source stuff i had on mine that was causing severe water restriction and overheating. The housing itself was also very restrictive and impeding coolant circulation. This is why i asked how the coolant was moving with the stat open. There's a stickied thread in the engine section with lots of data to crunch on so go do some reading if you haven't allready. 

Get the oil pump gasket sorted out first then start looking at your waterpump/housing to see what's going on. 


Ron

I didn't think the radiator was the problem, just answering somebody's question from an earlier post. I have about a 3/4 inch gap from top to bottom on the passenger side and didn't think it would affect the cooling too much, but I will need to adress it since I am having issues.

I read your stickied thread from when you first started it, but I already had it on the motor and was playing a wait and see game. I really have not driven the car too much since I got it on the road for various reasons, but mainly because every time I seemed to start driving it I would come across a bug I would have to address. This made me want to drive it sparingly. Hopefully their occurrance will happen less and less.

I will probably have my cousin sandblast the stock housing for me and then I will paint it and put that on and see what the water pump impeller looks like before I use it again and replace the thermostat to cover all the bases.

[myk]

The fan needs to be half way into the shroud to be effective.  I would ditch the flex fan too, those things are completely worthless.  They draw no air at higher RPM.  A stock clutch fan with the correct shroud will do the job.

I thought that was the point. Blades flex and don't draw air at higher rpm, which you don't need anyway because you are going fast enough where enough air is flowing over the rad.  If you could always be moving at 30mph+ you wouldn't even need a cooling fan. 

I had some cooling issues that I couldn't resolve on my previous setup on a 440.  stock WP housing, mild build, flowkooler pump, becool direct fit rad, shroud.  started off with electric fan, no good.  put a clutch fan on it, no good.  put a flex fan on it and temps went way down at idle immediately.  I don't know why people hate them so much.  The only drawback I can see is that they may not work as designed and still end up costing you some HP at higher RPM.  I painted mine black so it didn't stick out like a sore thumb too.

I forgot your setup, but aren't you running on electric fans only now, with no engine driven fan?

Good memory sir!!  the setup I'm referring to was before the accident. 

You're running Spal dual fans at about 4,000 cfm's, right?

Jesus, you stalking me dude?  lol... yes something like that. it's been a long time since I put them in. 

Uh, sorta, lol.  A few years ago you and 2Gunz were talking about the electrical 'mods that you made to your cars, along with your cooling fan 'mod and I've been dreaming about doing that stuff ever since!  Now that I've got money to burn on the Charger I'm just now getting around to doing some things.  Thanks for the great ideas!

[ACUDANUT]

 I have seen too small of a carburator actually make an engine run too lean and actually make a engine run hotter.

[firefighter3931]

The "if it were mine" answer would be ; Pull that WP housing and compare it to the stock one. Insert your finger down the passages and see if there is any difference. If there is, use the stock housing with a Milidon HV waterpump and Milidon high flow 160* thermostat. 


Ron

[General_01]

OK, I am in the middle of eliminating things one at a time. I took the old thermostat out and put a 160 degree thermostat in. I was also looking at my aftermarket temp gauge before I started the engine and noticed that it is not dropping all the way to zero. The lowest reading on it is 130 degrees and the needle sits above that before I have even started it. Seeing this, I decided to hook up the stock temp gauge to a sending unit. I took it for a drive. The aftermarket read high compared to the stock unit. The stock unit never got above the half line on the gauge and even went down to about a quarter reading on the gauge while driving down the road. Aftermarket was reading about 220 and about 210.

Seems the aftermarket gauge is bad, but I am wondering if the location I have the sending unit for the stock gauge is reading low because of where it's at. Do you think the sending unit location is OK. Stock is on the right(drivers side) in the pic. I also took pics of the temp gauges after getting back from my drive.

[A383Wing]

that's where I got my stock and after market gauge senders is in the water pump housing as you do

there's no other place to put the senders that will read correctly

Bryan

[General_01]

Had my cousin bring over his infrared gun and the stock gauge is reading what the gun reads. The aftermarket was reading 200 when the gun was reading 130. Guess we found the problem. Thanks everyone.

[myk]

Well hush my mouth and fill me full of chitlins-a stock gauge was correct over an aftermarket one...