Does anyone have any tips on how to loosen header bolts? UPDATE 8/12

[Dino]

I decided to park the Charger for a while, the brakes are no longer reliable, the a/c needs to be fixed and the driver's side header is now really loud, the leak's getting bigger.

I removed all the old a/c stuff, battery and battery tray, and spark plug wires.  Spark plugs are still in but I have a new set of NGK XR5's to go in.

Anyway, I started by putting a few basins under the car and removed the bolt closest to the rad.  Didn't expect all that much coolant to come out but it took a while to drain!  I'll undo the lower hose next to drain all of it, the drain bolt looks like it may snap so I'm not touching it.

I also loosened the 2nd closest to the firewall but when I try to loosen the others I simply don't have the leverage.  The bolt heads are 7/16 and the wrench is pretty short.  I don't have a pipe to stick over it, which is probably a good thing, so apart from heating the bolts, anything else I can do?  Do they sell long and strong 7/16 wrenches?  I think they may come loose with a longer wrench, the bolts are real tight but if two loosen, the others should follow.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Start it up and let the head get warm then try it

[Dino]

Start it up and let the head get warm then try it

I thought of that but after I removed previously mentioned and unbolted the collector from the pipe that plan didn't work out!   

There's only 2 more bolts to go.  The one closest to the firewall which I'm sure will be easy enough if I spend some time on it.  And the other is the 2nd closest to the radiator.  The head of the bolt is starting to round and there is not enough room between bolt and header pipe to clear the box end of a wrench!  To make it a bit more challenging, the dipstick is in the way....Can I remove that thing easily?

The thing that worries me most is that even when it's all loose, it doesn't look like I'll have half an inch of clearance anywhere...damn.

[justcruisin]

The dip stick tube is held in with a bracket off the tube to the engine mount, release that bolt and try rotating the tube while applying some upward pressure. Be gentle as they can break. Put your header bolts/nuts back in with a bit of copper coat.

[Dino]

The dip stick tube is held in with a bracket off the tube to the engine mount, release that bolt and try rotating the tube while applying some upward pressure. Be gentle as they can break. Put your header bolts/nuts back in with a bit of copper coat.

I guess I need to drain the oil before removing the tube? 

Is that the same as the permatex ultra copper?  Can I use that one the new header gasket as well?  At the moment I see at least 3 paper gaskets between header and head, I wonder if that's what they had to do to make it line up in which case I need a real thick gasket?  All I have is a standard felpro gaskets.  It's paper and one side has some metal foil or something on it.  I have two of them and I'm not touching the passenger side header.

I read that you should put anti seize stuff on the bolts, will the copper have the same effect?  I just want to get rid of the noise, it's damn loud!

[Troy]

Your oil level shouldn't be that high (the dipstick enters the block above the oil pan). The dipstick itself stick a few inches out of the bottom and, as you know, there's never that much oil on the end.

Header bolts usually suck. Heat and lots of penetrating oil are usually the best approach. I like PB Blaster.

Yes, the copper is for high heat applications. It also works well as an anti-seize on bolt threads. I use the spray can stuff but I don't think it's any different than what's in the tube (more expensive of course!). You may have so many gaskets on there because they could never get it to seal.

Troy

[Dino]

Your oil level shouldn't be that high (the dipstick enters the block above the oil pan). The dipstick itself stick a few inches out of the bottom and, as you know, there's never that much oil on the end.

Header bolts usually suck. Heat and lots of penetrating oil are usually the best approach. I like PB Blaster.

Yes, the copper is for high heat applications. It also works well as an anti-seize on bolt threads. I use the spray can stuff but I don't think it's any different than what's in the tube (more expensive of course!). You may have so many gaskets on there because they could never get it to seal.

Troy

Good stuff!  Thanks Troy!   

[Dino]

Should I get new bolts for the headers or can I safely reuse them?  They are rusty but the threads look fine.

[FLG]

Should I get new bolts for the headers or can I safely reuse them?  They are rusty but the threads look fine.

If there in good shape, wire wheel and reuse would be fine, dont forget to use some sealant in the threads as they lead into the water jackets.

[Dino]

Should I get new bolts for the headers or can I safely reuse them?  They are rusty but the threads look fine.

If there in good shape, wire wheel and reuse would be fine, dont forget to use some sealant in the threads as they lead into the water jackets.

Cool! 

I have two tubes of permatex ultra copper for the bolts and header gasket.  I used the stuff on my intake manifold and valley pan, nice bonus is that it matches the hemi orange pretty well!

[Dino]

After removing the valve cover, gasket and the bulkhead wiring I finally had room to put some torque on these wrenches but alas, the bolt heads are too rusty and worn and the wrench no longer grips.  The only vise grips I have that have thin enough beaks to get between header flange and pipe is not capable of gripping the bolt either.  I have a propane bottle with torch so I tried heating the bolt, second from the rad right behind the sharp bend, but stopped before it turned red because something started to smoke!  Might be oil, might be a seal, I dunno.  In any case it's academic if I can't put something on there real tight.  The bolt closest to the firewall is not budging either but I haven't tried the vise grips yet.

So what option do I have for removing the second bolt behind the bend?  Cutting the head off and hope I can get the threads out later?  Seems a bit too risky but I'm running out of ideas.

Has anyone had any luck with a 90 degree bend wrench?  I may go out and buy one but I've never seen one in 7/16.

[HANDM]

Find a cheap 7/16 and custom bend and grind on it till it fits....
I have one in my box and it is just for removing header bolts I also have a couple hacked off wrenches of various size and length for the other hard to reach mopar bolts

[Dino]

I tried the torch again but can't get it hot enough.  My vise grips are slipping as well, bolt's not looking so good....

I have some flat iron stock which I will use to cut a wrench from.  If I can get it snug enough I should be able to get it loose.  Sure wish I could get that bolt red hot though, that would do it!

When I removed the valve cover and gasket I found the leak.  There's about 2 inches of gasket missing in the center of the header flange, the top is blown out.  No wonder it was so loud!

[firefighter3931]

Dino, get yourself a set of Percy's dead soft aluminum header gaskets....they will seal up fine and are re-usable. Also get a set or ARP header bolts with the 3/8in head. It's nice being able to use a small 3/8 socket or wrench in tight quarters....makes removal much easier. 


Ron

[Dino]

Dino, get yourself a set of Percy's dead soft aluminum header gaskets....they will seal up fine and are re-usable. Also get a set or ARP header bolts with the 3/8in head. It's nice being able to use a small 3/8 socket or wrench in tight quarters....makes removal much easier. 


Ron

I take it that my felpro gasket with ultra copper won't do huh?    

Do I still use copper with the percy gasket?  Also which arp bolts should I get, there's several kits. I'm looking at Summit but if there's a better place to buy (ie cheaper) I'm all for it.

I'm not sure how long the bolts are supposed to be.

[firefighter3931]

Dino, get yourself a set of Percy's dead soft aluminum header gaskets....they will seal up fine and are re-usable. Also get a set or ARP header bolts with the 3/8in head. It's nice being able to use a small 3/8 socket or wrench in tight quarters....makes removal much easier. 


Ron

I take it that my felpro gasket with ultra copper won't do huh?    

Do I still use copper with the percy gasket?  Also which arp bolts should I get, there's several kits. I'm looking at Summit but if there's a better place to buy (ie cheaper) I'm all for it.

I'm not sure how long the bolts are supposed to be.

Felpro's won't last long and with old(er) headers that probably have some warpage on the flanges they won't seal well. 

The Percy's are a multilayer aluminum gasket that will conform and seal much better than the thin felpro stuff. You put them on dry....no sealant required. Just clean the surfaces and you're good to go.

As for the header bolts....just use Ultra copper on the threads and let them set-up overnight to allow the rtv to cure. Once the engine runs for a bit let it cool down and retorque the bolts and you should have no issues. The header bolts are "wet" with production heads so the Sealant is needed to prevent seepage. 


Here's a set of header bolts that'll work just fine. Grade 8 fastner with the small 3/8 hex head :

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-84542/

Percy's gaskets....a little pricy but worth every cent :

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PHP-66036/



Ron

[Dino]

Dino, get yourself a set of Percy's dead soft aluminum header gaskets....they will seal up fine and are re-usable. Also get a set or ARP header bolts with the 3/8in head. It's nice being able to use a small 3/8 socket or wrench in tight quarters....makes removal much easier. 


Ron

I take it that my felpro gasket with ultra copper won't do huh?    

Do I still use copper with the percy gasket?  Also which arp bolts should I get, there's several kits. I'm looking at Summit but if there's a better place to buy (ie cheaper) I'm all for it.

I'm not sure how long the bolts are supposed to be.

Felpro's won't last long and with old(er) headers that probably have some warpage on the flanges they won't seal well. 

The Percy's are a multilayer aluminum gasket that will conform and seal much better than the thin felpro stuff. You put them on dry....no sealant required. Just clean the surfaces and you're good to go.

As for the header bolts....just use Ultra copper on the threads and let them set-up overnight to allow the rtv to cure. Once the engine runs for a bit let it cool down and retorque the bolts and you should have no issues. The header bolts are "wet" with production heads so the Sealant is needed to prevent seepage. 


Here's a set of header bolts that'll work just fine. Grade 8 fastner with the small 3/8 hex head :

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-84542/

Percy's gaskets....a little pricy but worth every cent :

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PHP-66036/



Ron

They say you get what you pay for and if it means not having to redo this next year then it'll be money well spent! 

Thanks for the link to the bolts as well, and at a great price!  That'll offset the sticker shock from the gaskets a bit.   

Tonight I'm going to replace my propane torch with mapp gas, hopefully that'll cook the bolts so I can crank down the vise grip better.  Maybe I should buy a new vise grip as well seeing that this one spun on the bolt a few times.

Thanks Ron!   

[firefighter3931]

They say you get what you pay for and if it means not having to redo this next year then it'll be money well spent! 

Exactly ! You don't want to have to screw around with this job again. I gave a set of Old Headmans i had laying around to a buddy and he installed them with a set of Percy's gaskets on his car. Those headers are at least 15 yrs old and the Percy's sealed them up no problem. 

I've used the same set of Percy's gaskets on two engines ; first the 446 and now the 572 and they've been off and on at least a dozen times and still seal up like the first day i used them. By now i would have spent a couple hundred dollars on header gaskets had i used anything else. 

I've yet to find a "re-usble" header gasket other than this one. Nothing else compares from my experience.....these simply ROCK ! 


Ron

[Dino]

Sweet!  I'm about to order, of course I had to add a few 'goodies' to the cart so now I'm looking for a Summit coupon.  

Edit:  Dind't find any codes but that's ok, I just want this job done!

[firefighter3931]

Sweet!  I'm about to order, of course I had to add a few 'goodies' to the cart so now I'm looking for a Summit coupon.  

Edit:  Dind't find any codes but that's ok, I just want this job done!

Percy's also makes a nice aluminum collector gasket so i would recommend changing those as well  

Might as well order them at the same time  

Here's the link ; these come with new collector bolts too ! 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PHP-66002/




Ron

[Dino]

Sweet!  I'm about to order, of course I had to add a few 'goodies' to the cart so now I'm looking for a Summit coupon.  

Edit:  Dind't find any codes but that's ok, I just want this job done!

Percy's also makes a nice aluminum collector gasket so i would recommend changing those as well 

Might as well order them at the same time 



Ron

Dang, just placed my order and didn't think to order those.  I hope they carry them at the local parts stores.

[firefighter3931]

Sweet!  I'm about to order, of course I had to add a few 'goodies' to the cart so now I'm looking for a Summit coupon.  

Edit:  Dind't find any codes but that's ok, I just want this job done!

Percy's also makes a nice aluminum collector gasket so i would recommend changing those as well 

Might as well order them at the same time 



Ron

Dang, just placed my order and didn't think to order those.  I hope they carry them at the local parts stores.

Call Summit and add them on to your order...i've done it many times. 

Should be no problem as long as the order hasn't shipped out 



Ron

[Dino]

Sweet!  I'm about to order, of course I had to add a few 'goodies' to the cart so now I'm looking for a Summit coupon.  

Edit:  Dind't find any codes but that's ok, I just want this job done!

Percy's also makes a nice aluminum collector gasket so i would recommend changing those as well 

Might as well order them at the same time 



Ron

Dang, just placed my order and didn't think to order those.  I hope they carry them at the local parts stores.

Call Summit and add them on to your order...i've done it many times. 

Should be no problem as long as the order hasn't shipped out 



Ron

I was too late, these guys ship fast!  That's okay, the one that came out is still looking good although the bolts need replacing.  I'll put some ultra copper on the collector gasket.

I got the mapp gas and got the bolt red hot but the only vise grip that I could fit in there was a bit short so I didn't have the strength to clamp down on it as much as I need to.  This is turning out to be one hell of a job!  I have evening classes the next three nights so Friday I'll try to get the bolt closest to the firewall and see if I can manipulate the header to move behind that bolt.  I'm starting to think the damn bolt is welded to the header, I can't believe it still hasn't moved whilte the others came out without adding heat or pb blaster.

Suppose I do end up with a bolt broken off in the head, then what do I do?  I know there's bolt extraction tools but don't know how they work.  I think I've drilled out a bolt once but I can imagine that wouldn't be easy with a grade 8 header bolt, not to mention I would probably have to raise the engine just to reach it.

[elacruze]

You can slip the box end of a larger wrench over the hand end for more leverage if necessary.



http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=hand&item_ID=633443&group_ID=675015&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

[Dino]

You can slip the box end of a larger wrench over the hand end for more leverage if necessary.



http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=hand&item_ID=633443&group_ID=675015&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

That might work if it had an open 6 pt end, unfortunately I don't have the clearance to slide one of those on.

[bakerhillpins]

Haven't done this before so I have to ask? Why not just use a stripped bolt extracting socket? Is there no room to fit a socket and ratchet in there?

[Dino]

Haven't done this before so I have to ask? Why not just use a stripped bolt extracting socket? Is there no room to fit a socket and ratchet in there?

Nope, not even close,  The box end of a wrench won't even fit over it.  It's the bolt right behind the first bend on a header.  I'm almost tempted to cut the damn things off and get HP manifolds.

[bakerhillpins]

Haven't done this before so I have to ask? Why not just use a stripped bolt extracting socket? Is there no room to fit a socket and ratchet in there?

Nope, not even close,  The box end of a wrench won't even fit over it.  It's the bolt right behind the first bend on a header.  I'm almost tempted to cut the damn things off and get HP manifolds.

Yea, that was going to be my next suggestion. If it goes for you like things usually work for me, even cutting off the header will have that "unsolvable" problem. Which of course you will not find until you have cut 3/4s of the way through. 

[Dino]

Haven't done this before so I have to ask? Why not just use a stripped bolt extracting socket? Is there no room to fit a socket and ratchet in there?

Nope, not even close,  The box end of a wrench won't even fit over it.  It's the bolt right behind the first bend on a header.  I'm almost tempted to cut the damn things off and get HP manifolds.

Yea, that was going to be my next suggestion. If it goes for you like things usually work for me, even cutting off the header will have that "unsolvable" problem. Which of course you will not find until you have cut 3/4s of the way through. 

Very likely 

Every job I start I go in thinking the worst so I don't get disappointed.  So far that is mostly correct.  I'm getting a bit nervous with this as I'm running out of options and even when I have the bolts out (which will be marked by two week long festivities) then I still need to replace the gasket which will very likely mean lift the engine.   

[bakerhillpins]

Very likely  

Every job I start I go in thinking the worst so I don't get disappointed.  So far that is mostly correct.  I'm getting a bit nervous with this as I'm running out of options and even when I have the bolts out (which will be marked by two week long festivities) then I still need to replace the gasket which will very likely mean lift the engine.  

You do realize that this all started when you wanted to paint the engine bay WITHOUT taking the engine out. Had you just bought into pulling the engine in the first place all of this frozen bolt shenanigans would never have occurred.  

What you are going through right now is exactly why I haven't even started to pull my carb for the rebuild kit that I picked up at Carlisle.

[Dino]

Very likely  

Every job I start I go in thinking the worst so I don't get disappointed.  So far that is mostly correct.  I'm getting a bit nervous with this as I'm running out of options and even when I have the bolts out (which will be marked by two week long festivities) then I still need to replace the gasket which will very likely mean lift the engine.  

You do realize that this all started when you wanted to paint the engine bay WITHOUT taking the engine out. Had you just bought into pulling the engine in the first place all of this frozen bolt shenanigans would never have occurred.  

What you are going through right now is exactly why I haven't even started to pull my carb for the rebuild kit that I picked up at Carlisle.

LOL

Actualy I'm only lifting the engine, not removing it.  And this started as a header leak fix and a brake upgrade but wanted to paint the bay while I had so much stuff removed.  I just hoped to be done with the header and working on the brakes by now so the painting ain't gonna happen anytime soon!

I haven't started my TQ rebuild either, after this header job I may take a break!

[magnumminded]

Hey Remflex gaskets work pretty good in my case. They are think and reusable up to so many times. Just food for thought. Percys I have read good stuff about the reusable gaskets as well.

[Dino]

I finally got the bolts out!

With work and school I didn't have a lot of time to work on the car but yesterday I finally did and with success!  I'll post pics later, the two remaining bolts have round heads on them!  I was able to get them out with a shortened vise grip, a hollow bar for leverage and a torch with mapp gas.  I did accidentally put a small dent on the inside of the first header tube but oh well, not that it'll change anything.  When the last bolt came out I was surprised to see that I could actually move it around quite well in there.  There's no way it would come out without some more work but it didn't have to, I had all the clearance I needed to clean up everything.  Magnum I just read about the remflex and they look real nice but I already had the percy gaskets.  The gasket that came out was totally shot, it's two laters of paper and there's a chunk missing in the center.  I also found out that the rubber valve cover seal was cut in half right above the header leak so I wonder if oil degraded that part of the gasket sooner.  I have more ultra copper so should I just use that to make a valve cover gasket or should I 'glue' the rubber gasket back on with that stuff?

I put the header gasket on, put a good amount of ultra copper on the new bolts with 3/8 head and tightened them snugly.  Now it sat overnight I can snug them up some more and refill the cooling system.

When I was draining coolant I noticed it was real clean so I'm not too worried about what's left in there.  That said I did buy the prestone flush bottle.  I have my heater disconnected so I'll just have the engine run with that stuff in it for a while and drain it.  When it's time to fill the system, how much do I use?  I have a gallon of prestone coolant, not the 50/50 stuff.  And I bought a bottle of water wetter as well.  How much of each do I use and how much water?

[firefighter3931]

Good work Dino 

I'd replace the valvecover gaskets with some Felpro rubber. Just use the Ultra copper to glue the gasket to the valvecover and let it set up overnight. No sealer on the head. The excessive heat from the blown header gasket burnt up the valvecover gasket above it.    That won't be a problem anymore, now that you've installed the Percy's   

I like a 50/50 mix of antifreeze 


Ron

[Dino]

All done!  Since I'm getting mopar performance valvecovers soon I used some heat to weld the cut rubber gasket back together and used a thin coat of ultra copper.  Seems to hold up just fine.

The header leak is gone, I also found leaks on both collectors which are fixed as well and I can't believe how quiet the car got!  It's still loud enough if you're standing behind it but no more going deaf in the cabin.  Woohoo!

I replaced the spark plugs with NGK xr5's.  When I had the car running in the driveway I just needed it to warm up so I could drain the radiator flush stuff but it didn't make it that far, it started to stumble and died and I couldn't get it to run again.  I was sure I had plenty gas in the tank so I checked just about everything else before I decided to pour a gas can in it!  That did the trick!  

I retorqued the bolts after the first short trip and I took the car to work today so I'll retorque again tonight to be safe.  It's good to have her back, I was getting way too itchy!

Thanks for the help guys!  

[Dino]

more

[Dino]

last ones

[bakerhillpins]

Good to hear Dino!  I bet you are relieved to finally have that completed. 

So did the PO put a good gasket on top of a bad one? That exhaust gasket looks like it's half as thick in that one pic?

[Dino]

I was really relieved when that final bolt came loose.  And all was well again when I went to fill her up last night.

The old gasket is so far gone it's hard to say if it's two layers or a delaminated single gasket.  It does look like two gaskets where one is missing a bit in the middle.  It's also very crusty so it had zero sealing capabilities.  The percy gasket started squishing between header and head before the bolts were tight so I knew it would work great and it did.

I doubt the po did the work though as the car came with a full engine rebuild receipt.  I think the mechanic put the gaskets on.  The passenger side has a paper gasket as well but that one is sealed up just fine.  I have a spare percy gasket and header bolts but as long as the old ain't broke, I ain't fixing it!   

[firefighter3931]

The double gaskets are often used to compensate for a warped flange but those paper/cardboard gaskets are junk and eventually fail. 

The Percy's are nice and thick with multiple layers and the soft aluminum conforms to the header flange which makes for a fool proof seal. With old headers these are the best (only) choice. 

If the flange is badly warped you can cut the flange between the front/2nd pipe & 3rd/back pipe to allow for a more even compression on the gasket. 

Most of the newer high end headers come with 3/8in thick flanges to prevent warpage but the older less expensive stuff can be made to work with a little TLC. 


Ron

[Dino]

The double gaskets are often used to compensate for a warped flange but those paper/cardboard gaskets are junk and eventually fail. 

The Percy's are nice and thick with multiple layers and the soft aluminum conforms to the header flange which makes for a fool proof seal. With old headers these are the best (only) choice. 

If the flange is badly warped you can cut the flange between the front/2nd pipe & 3rd/back pipe to allow for a more even compression on the gasket. 

Most of the newer high end headers come with 3/8in thick flanges to prevent warpage but the older less expensive stuff can be made to work with a little TLC. 


Ron

Never thought about cutting the flange, probably because it's fairly straight but it's good to have options.   

The percy gasket worked great!  I retorqued the bolts and checked them a second time and the header is sealed tight.  Awesome stuff!

It's amazing what a difference this work made, the car actually sounds as it should.  unfortunately without that leaky header I can now hear the whining rear end all the way up to 55 mph.   

When I get back from Europe I'll try to redo the axle preload and hope for the best, if that fails I'll need bigger speakers in the car!