Tax Per Mile May Be Coming

[chargerboy69]

A GPS installed in your car, and a charge of 10 cents per mile may be the price you pay to drive your car.

Of course this is also for the planet.

"a scenario which is part of a proposed long-range study aimed at finding ways to reduce traffic and pollution, while also raising revenues."

It is all about cash, nothing else.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/07/18/bay-area-drivers-could-be-tracked-by-gps-taxed-per-mile-driven/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ludicrous-san-fran-area-drivers-could-be-forced-to-install-gps-devices-that-could-tax-their-travel/

[TheGhost]

San Francisco.  Shocker.

[Troy]

Many big cities already have enough cameras to closely "guess" the miles you drive in them. But having the exact mileage is so much better! People had to see this coming as early as ODBII but no one has the balls to stand up against it these days. Another reason to live as far away as possible from these privacy/rights sucking holes called cities.

I'm also willing to bet it has less to do with congestion than making money. Someone has to pay for all the votes - I mean giveaways.

If people could afford to live in San Francisco they wouldn't have to commute...

Troy

[440]

That's shocking, big brother is trying to control everything we do.

Need to find out a way to make it go backwards so they owe you money    

[Silver R/T]

Way to stick to the man!

[Dino]

It's been going on across the pond for a very long time, it was bound to come here eventually.

[Bobs69]

Screw them!  It comes to the States then it sure as hell will come to Canada.  This is the sort of shit.......................when something like this happens someone needs to make an assassination attempt immediately.  Just so there is no confusion as to why the people are pissed.

"Ways to reduce pollution."  Just an obvious cover up, and convenient side effect of sticking it to the common man who doesn't have the time/energy/or resources to fight back.  They allways stick it the masses because we are too busy trying to live our lives to take time out and fight back!

[Troy]

Screw them!  It comes to the States then it sure as hell will come to Canada.  This is the sort of shit.......................when something like this happens someone needs to make an assassination attempt immediately.  Just so there is no confusion as to why the people are pissed.

"Ways to reduce pollution."  Just an obvious cover up, and convenient side effect of sticking it to the common man who doesn't have the time/energy/or resources to fight back.  They allways stick it the masses because we are too busy trying to live our lives to take time out and fight back!

I'd be surprised if Canada didn't adopt it first.

Troy

[Mike DC]

          
There is a much easier, more practical, fairer, and cheaper alternative to this: add a few more cents to gas prices.  


But Washington knows what happens to any elected official proposing that.  The US public would rather pay another $10 indirectly than pay another 10 cents right at the pump.

       

[Cooter]

         
There is a much easier, more practical, fairer, and cheaper alternative to this: add a few more cents to gas prices.  


But Washington knows what happens to any elected official proposing that.  The US public would rather pay another $10 indirectly than pay another 10 cents right at the pump.

       

Damn Mike, your battin' 4 for 4! AGREED! Even when fuel prices were $4.00/gal, I STILL saw Big ass SUV's on the daily commute so those "Soccer Moms" could "Feel safer" while putting on make-up, talking on cell phones, slapping the kids, oh, and driving too.

[Bob T]

Hey, we've got it already on all diesel vehicles since 1978 
Road User Charges, cents per km, you have to go and buy a chunk of road user kms before you drive em. And if you get caught driving out of ticket kms then the pricks charge you double plus the cost of the original mileage. Its a form of Govt excise tax but it is not used solely for road maintenance.....

[Mike DC]

Damn Mike, your battin' 4 for 4! AGREED! Even when fuel prices were $4.00/gal, I STILL saw Big ass SUV's on the daily commute so those "Soccer Moms" could "Feel safer" while putting on make-up, talking on cell phones, slapping the kids, oh, and driving too.

Yeah, the higher prices weren't exactly terrible enough to affect what most people drove.  IMHO many of the people who bought more fuel-efficient cars during that period would have probably done it anyway for "non-economic" reasons.


That said . . . it has also been said that Washington would tax having sex if they could find a way to enforce it. 

Once they dream up a way to enforce a tax, it gets a lot harder to keep it from happening regardless of whether the money is still needed or not. 


IMHO the only way to avoid taxes like this is to keep the ideas from ever getting very well developed.  By the time they start seriously proposing the idea we've already lost a lot of ground.  Pretty soon it becomes a perpetual battle to keep voting it down.  They just keep throwing something up on the ballot over & over again until the public eventually wears down on rejecting it and they get the answer they want.

[Ghoste]

And electric cars make them want to do this even more as they lose revenue from gas taxes intended for roadwork.

[Mike DC]

             
Yeah, that's another issue.  

IMHO it's gonna be a while before there are enough electric cars in usage to make any big dent in their tax base.  And during the first half of the process of integrating electric, they might just consider the lack of equivalent fuel tax a bit more of an incentive to switch.  

 

[skip68]

I for one am sick and tired of these types of laws.  What I mean is it's OK to pollute if you pay a fee.  The air belongs to ALL of us and NOT the government.  With that said, I should be able to impose a tax on the government for the pollution they put in the air.  Makes sense to me.  We pay them but who do they pay?   They need to be accountable for every penny they collect.   I say we start sending the government bills for their share of the pollution I have to breath. 

[Ghoste]

Good idea and lets also tax them for the pollution they print and broadcast.  (okay okay, you meant actual pollution but I find some of the other stuff unwanted and offensive too  )

[TK73]

With that said, I should be able to impose a tax on the government for the pollution they put in the air.  Makes sense to me.  We pay them but who do they pay?  I say we start sending the government bills for their share of the pollution I have to breath. 

Uhhhhhh, what??

The largest amount of pollution put into the atmosphere in this country is from commercial shipping (trucks) and industry... Not to mention how MUCH industry pours poisons into our water supply

[440]

It's a never ending cycle. Like Mike said, when there are enough electric cars on the road they will find a way to tax them too. Unfortunately this is the society we live in today. I don't see it changing anytime soon or in the distant future either, so we can either bend over and take it or stand up for ourselves. Sadly in this day and age most everyone is happy to just bend over, and it's only getting worse...  

[Mytur Binsdirti]

This is nothing new. In 2009, MA Governor, Deval Patrick (who is a Mini-Me version of the Commander in Chief and his best friend), floated the idea of putting a chip in our inspection stickers for the sole purpose of charging an additional mileage tax.


"Patrick is also considering a new system that would charge drivers based on the miles they travel. Those trips would be measured by a chip installed in a vehicle inspection sticker.

Somehow the fact that the governor of Massachusetts wants to put a chip in the inspection stickers of Massachusetts resident's cars only rates one paragraph in the entire article buried towards the end.

Governor Deval Patrick isn't content with taxing the people of Massachusetts for just about everything that they do or buy in his state, he wants to follow them over the border and tax them on what they buy out of state, and he wants to just follow them and tax them for wherever they decide to go-period.

This is the sad state of affairs in Massachusetts, and the country in general. This is not the first state to talk about implementing a tax on miles driven and it won't be the last. Once this idea gets noticed around the country more and more states will try to implement it, and why stop there? A federal tax on miles driven would naturally be next. President Obama will want in on the deal."



http://americaswatchtower.com/2009/02/10/massachusetts-may-tax-residents-per-mile-driven-chips-to-be-installed-in-inspection-stickers/

[sixpack70]

I felt poor after I moved to Mass and I make good money and am not spending my money like water. Only 9 more months and Ill be heading south again. The government needs to stop screwing the populace and anything that makes it harder to acquire the basics. The ruling elite makes so much money they never feel the pinch. A tax on driving would hurt people who have to drive long distances. Not everyone can get a job near home and walk or bike. People also can't move even if they wanted to with the housing market they way it is.

[Ghoste]

Is it irony that the United States came into existence largely because of unfair and excessive taxation or is it just a sad and pathetic aside.  You could argue that cars are a luxury but I would offer that to a nation the size of the USA private transportation capable of traversing great distances is a little more than a luxury.  I would also offer that access to things that poorer nations consider luxurious by a populace that fall into the average of their society, are also one of things that make (made?) the USA a model to achieve.
Let them drive freely and find another way to fill the empty government election promise bins.

[richRTSE]

With that said, I should be able to impose a tax on the government for the pollution they put in the air.  Makes sense to me.  We pay them but who do they pay?  I say we start sending the government bills for their share of the pollution I have to breath. 

Uhhhhhh, what??

The largest amount of pollution put into the atmosphere in this country is from commercial shipping (trucks) and industry... Not to mention how MUCH industry pours poisons into our water supply

Actually buildings cause more pollution than transportation or industry....

http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dgs/pio/facts/LA%20workshop/climate.pdf

[Budnicks]

I for one am sick and tired of these types of laws.  What I mean is it's OK to pollute if you pay a fee.  The air belongs to ALL of us and NOT the government.  With that said, I should be able to impose a tax on the government for the pollution they put in the air.  Makes sense to me.  We pay them but who do they pay?   They need to be accountable for every penny they collect.   I say we start sending the government bills for their share of the pollution I have to breath. 

amen brother...

[Budnicks]

Is it irony that the United States came into existence largely because of unfair and excessive taxation or is it just a sad and pathetic aside.  You could argue that cars are a luxury but I would offer that to a nation the size of the USA private transportation capable of traversing great distances is a little more than a luxury.  I would also offer that access to things that poorer nations consider luxurious by a populace that fall into the average of their society, are also one of things that make (made?) the USA a model to achieve.
Let them drive freely and find another way to fill the empty government election promise bins.

The more I read your posts, the more I like your views.... 

[Mike DC]

Is it irony that the United States came into existence largely because of unfair and excessive taxation or is it just a sad and pathetic aside.  You could argue that cars are a luxury but I would offer that to a nation the size of the USA private transportation capable of traversing great distances is a little more than a luxury.  

Yeah, but by building suburbia, we also built in our dependence on a fleet of personal vehicles.  It was a choice and we didn't have to make it.  We could have taken the nation in a much different direction a century ago.  America wouldn't be the same country that we grew up in, but it would still be here and we might be just as happy.  

I would also offer that access to things that poorer nations consider luxurious by a populace that fall into the average of their society, are also one of things that make (made?) the USA a model to achieve.  Let them drive freely and find another way to fill the empty government election promise bins.

Our "free" driving is the result of all kinds of compromises and indirect costs to our lives.  The price of fuel is never as simple as dollars & cents.  Raising the taxes on driving or on gasoline is just shifting the balance of taxes & subsidies a little bit differently.  

In the long run it doesn't matter what we want as much as what is economically viable in the future.  A vehicle-based culture doesn't work nearly so well in a 21st century world where energy prices (and thus, all raw materials) are higher than we grew up with.  We cannot drill & invent our way out of all the resource limitations that we are gradually running into.

[Ghoste]

Beyond the basic necessities of life every single thing in our society is a luxury and by definition not required.  All of these things are choices we could make and I for one am not prepared to return to life of living in a shelter I made with my bare hands from sticks and animal hides and a subsistence based on hunter gatherer methods.  Not being argumentative really but it s true of every human invention not absolutely required to survive.  A personal car or a public bus, it doesn't matter both are luxuries and at this time I still choose the one that gives me the most personal freedom and freedom of choice.
Again, not trying to be argumentative with you Mike just stating my opinion on the whole "we had a choice" thing.  I realize we could go to extremes here and talk about nukes and DDT and all kinds of things and there are many grey areas and many areas where I would fall squarely into your point and appear hypocritical to what I just stated.  My strong stance is likely based on my love of the automobile and my idsgust at the endless groups that seemed poised to take it away from us.

[Mike DC]

I don't want to take away the automobile.  

But the automobile isn't any fun in suburbia, it's just a choir.  The car is no longer designed to use for 5000 miles/yr of enjoyable motoring in the countryside.  Now it's designed for 15,000+ miles/yr as a daily suburban appliance.  It has become more important for it to be staggeringly crashworthy, clean burning, long-lasting, comfortable for long spells in traffic jams and objectionable weather, etc.  Our priorities for how we build a car have changed as our usage patterns have changed.  We no longer build cars for fun because, on average, cars are no longer being used for fun like they once were.  (Heck, look at the trend of high school kids that don't want to get drivers licenses today.  Can you imagine that happening 50 years ago?)  

IMHO cars would be more fun in a culture that had been less radically altered around them.  I'd much rather pay more money for gas, and use cars less often but in more enjoyable circumstances.  It's not fun to pay more money for something but IMO we're already paying those additional costs indirectly.

[Steve P.]

I do not have an opinion on this as I have not heard enough about it to make a judgement, but ,,, really, there is a trend of kids that DON'T want to get their license??? I don't think that is true around here!!!!!

[FLG]

I do not have an opinion on this as I have not heard enough about it to make a judgement, but ,,, really, there is a trend of kids that DON'T want to get their license??? I don't think that is true around here!!!!!

Another story here in NYC, a lot of friends have no license and no car, with no plans of getting either...sometimes i cant blame em, insurance is high, parking is non existent, than you need to deal with when you get a ticket, registration costs, license costs, and the fact its not really necessary if you dont leave the 5 boroughs or NJ...in FL its required, around here i can leave my house now (3am) and walk around the corner for whatever food i need.

[Steve P.]

Ahhhh, forgot you are in the NYC area....  Here it is just like Upstate NY. Gotta have it the day you become of age... Our insurance is outrageous here compared to Rochester, NY...  Still, the kids are driving anything they can as soon as they can... 

[FLG]

Ahhhh, forgot you are in the NYC area....  Here it is just like Upstate NY. Gotta have it the day you become of age... Our insurance is outrageous here compared to Rochester, NY...  Still, the kids are driving anything they can as soon as they can... 

Yep, insurance is nuts...though depends on the car. A lot of friends want to buy new cars, than they find out there gonna need to spend 3-4k for insurance for the year, or they go with a used car but just got there license so insurance rates are still high.

Im (23) with a clean record, and took the safe driving discount program, also had my license since 17....decent liability is only 120$ a month for my BMW. Depends on the car, your driving record, and how long youve had your license.


One of the reasons i can NEVER permanently move out of Brooklyn, im up during the night hours because i work days and i simply cant deal with being hungry at 3am and not having a DAMN thing open, and the idea of having to DRIVE everywhere simply does not compute. Plus the humidity, you guys can keep that!

[Mike DC]

The trend of teens not wanting to drive is still small.  But the fact that it's happening at all is noteworthy IMHO.  Of course it's most common in the dense urban centers but it does show up in other areas too.

[Ghoste]

I have noted the trend as well but around here I chalk it up to other factors.  When we (well me anyway) were teens, a licence was relatively easy to get and it represented freedom.  Now it is far more costly, complicated and lengthy to get that same permit.  Add in graduated licencing with all of the restrictions on night driving, freeway driving, driving with passengers etc and the attraction to drive is GREATLY lessened.  Then, from the parents side you have unholy insurance surcharges for a driving teen so it becomes a big encouraging factor to force them to just drive the kids.  That way you "know" where they are (haha) and they aren't driving drunk and you saved money etc.  So the freedom and attraction are gone.
I'd point out that much of that, well nearly all of it where I live, can be directly attributed to government intervention and bureaucratic money grabs as well.

[Mike DC]

I see your point but I think it reinforces my earlier argument. 

Driving isn't fun for kids anymore because it has become a way to give them more responsibilities, not more freedoms.  That's because using an automobile isn't something people do for recreation, it's something they do to participate in the working world.  We've restricted away many of the freedoms that driving used to have,  and the changes of a suburban culture have taken away many others. 

[charger_fan_4ever]

What will be the straw that brakes the camel's back ? or will we just continue to take it ?
You guys in the states need to start packing heat at town hall meetings. They just keep putting it to us. Up here in canauck land they disarmed us years ago so we are helpless.

I agree with Troy i'd say Canada tries this stupidity first.

[TK73]

You guys in the states need to start packing heat at town hall meetings.

That's just plain FUCKED UP


Besides that a whole thread on some BS proposal some dipstick politician spouted off then a "certain" portion of the population gets their TP panties wadded and starts spreading this crap.

[Ghoste]

Just imagine how angry you would be if it were a right wing proposal coming from a city in Arizona or Texas.

[440]

Or how angry you'd be if they started something along the lines of a "Classic Car Tax" that was structured similarly to property tax.

[Ghoste]

And is that idea really so far fetched tha they wouldn't try it?  Remember clunker laws.

[TK73]

More than enough right wing ideology in this country to hack me off... Fortunately I love my country, understand it is not perfect and do what I can to support what I see as a path to improve it. 

This thread, specifically, is irritating because some idiot idea, that will never work ,gets so much attention as a serious topic... THEN a Canadian advocates a posture of implied violence in our local political discussion. (Giffords)

[440]

And is that idea really so far fetched tha they wouldn't try it?  Remember clunker laws.

It's quite within the realm of reality. Why should these people be able to enjoy environment depleting cars and not have to pay for it. Lets tax em'

Even though my truck is within the allowable smog limits I still get slugged a gross polluter tax.

Unfortunately these ideas and proposed laws eventually materialize... Look at gay marriage, they finally got that through. Just give it enough time.

[aussiemuscle]

Jeremy Clarkson mentioned this in the Top Gear news section (it's also being considered in the UK).
Some of his points were
-instead of two or three big companies collecting fuel tax and paying the govt, you'd be chasing every single car for tax.
-if they replaced the fuel tax (which was suggested it would replace it), people with big gas guzzling cars could pay the same tax someone driving a Prius (how cool would that be?)

in addition to paying tax on fuel, you also pay it to register your car, your license, when you buy the car (stamp duty, luxury car tax), toll roads. it's never ending.

[Steve P.]

If all were back to work and paying taxes into the coffers and not collecting from the coffers we would be in much better shape. Especially if wages were worth a crap!!!

My.02

[LaOtto70Charger]

If all were back to work and paying taxes into the coffers and not collecting from the coffers we would be in much better shape. Especially if wages were worth a crap!!!

My.02

Good point.  Another would be how do we want to pay for all the roads in this country?  Indiana leased out a toll road to a private company to get the cash to spruce up roads not too long ago.  Budget is balanced now, but already heard on the local news that the road budget is running low.  Sooner or later taxes revenue needs to go up to fix them again.  Personally I'd rather pay more in a tax of some sort than drive on the chip and seal stuff they do to get by.

[Steve P.]

Agreed.. We have lived in Florida since 1994. Moving here from Rochester, NY. it was incredibly nice to drive on roads with zero pot holes. The roads and highways here were always like driving on brand new pavement. Not so much over the past 5-6 years. The roadways here are getting so bad now that I've heard talk of lowering the speed limits instead of repairing/replacing top coats. 

US. 19 is one of the deadliest highways in the country, between Port Richey and South St. Pete, and today it quite literally pains me to drive on it. It's like being back in NY. without the salt rotted cars. 

[Ghoste]

Don't native Floridians blame the high accident rates on bad drivers from the north?

[Dino]

Don't native Floridians blame the high accident rates on bad drivers from the north?

Native Floridian?  I don't think there is such a thing!   

[Steve P.]

I have a long story about that, but yes they do, until they go up home with me. Then they swear they will never give NYers shit ever again..... 

[68 Bullitt Charger]

Very simple,  Drive cars with no navigation!!!  That will be the day I pay per mile!!!!!  The economy will crash as will buying new cars causing the Car Industry to go bankrupt. Never gonna hapopen IMO.

[Ghoste]

I wouldn't be so sure.  It will be a gradual change like the usurpation of many other former liberties.

[Mike DC]

The public won't stand up for privacy rights until the govt starts trying to microchip everyone.  And maybe not even then. 

[Ghoste]

Not if they sell it in the name of public safety, common good and national security.  I suppose what we are talking about here in some ways is a microchip implant for your car isn't it?

[Bobs69]

The public won't stand up for privacy rights until the govt starts trying to microchip everyone.  And maybe not even then.  

No they won't.  The working class hasn't the time, energy, or resources to fight anything and still have time left to live and pursue hobbies and outside interests.


Watch this clip.  It's only a minute and 5 seconds long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHsoPPynIIc

[Ghoste]

But a special Wal Mart tax on them and watch the people go nuts.

[stripedelete]

but ,,, really, there is a trend of kids that DON'T want to get their license??? I don't think that is true around here!!!!!

Why do teens need a license?  It has zero to do with the expense.  It's because they don't have to congregate in order to socialise.  Today that happens on their smart phones via email, texting and social media.  

Could it be the hassle of driving?  Yes, but maybe not in the way you would think.  Remember, they've been chauffeured around in the back of mini van's, in comfortable captain chairs, watching videos, enjoying juice boxes and snacks, for their entire their lives.  It's a great deal.  Why change?

I'm not being cynical.  Google the topic.  It's interesting.

[Ghoste]

I can easily agree with all of that.

[Mike DC]

    
Cars used to give teens the opportunity to get away from adult supervision.  That's not true in the modern suburbs.

[Ghoste]

Well, suburbia is missing out IMO.

[Budnicks]

but ,,, really, there is a trend of kids that DON'T want to get their license??? I don't think that is true around here!!!!!

Why do teens need a license?  It has zero to do with the expense.  It's because they don't have to congregate in order to socialise.  Today that happens on their smart phones via email, texting and social media.  

Could it be the hassle of driving?  Yes, but maybe not in the way you would think.  Remember, they've been chauffeured around in the back of mini van's, in comfortable captain chairs, watching videos, enjoying juice boxes and snacks, for their entire their lives.  It's a great deal.  Why change?

I'm not being cynical.  Google the topic.  It's interesting.

well said