Why do non-Mopar people hate torsion bars so much?

[BIGBLCK11]

FWIW, I know it's not a muscle car, but Chevy did use torsion bars later on.  My 97 Tahoe had them.  While some people crank them up for lift, it just messes up the geometry, as Mike DC said.

[Steve P.]

I'm with COOTER.. Though for some different reasons, but I agree with his statements here..

Like everything else, auto tech has evolved. Some have gone to T-bars that never used them before, but have made them with better control bars. They have much more adjustment and are not in the way..

The aftermarket has covered much of the issues, but not one that fits what everyone wants.. I personally like the Alter-K-tion for many reasons. But I don't like it for another.. Like everything else there is normally room for improvement.   XV Motorsports has a pretty incredible system that is basically GM. The changes they made improve the system and can be adapted to our cars.

I too like having some room for big headers and headers that give the started some room. Stuffing that around T-bars is a hole lot of NO FUN.. Especially if you have a stick!!

My bigger complaint of mopar suspensions/front ends is the REAR STEERING.. Front steer gives a ton more room for a large oil pan without dragging the ground. Raising the nose or stuffing your drag link through an expensive oil pan.. With ALTER-K-TION for instance, it is a front steer system and gets rid of the t-bars. Now there is room for a junk yard truck oil pan for dirt cheap.. Of course if you can afford to change the complete K you can afford a nice pan, but this is not the issue. Cost I mean.. It is space and "G" force putting all your oil at the back of the pan.. Chevy whooped our ass on that....

[Steve P.]

Oh, did I mention the strength and difference in weight going to ALTER-K-TION.. Someone spoke of un-sprung weight. Add this to your thoughts...

Of course this is not for everyone and not that many actually need it, but with a few changes I would do one in a minute!!

[Nacho-RT74]

I can read complaints about everything ( room and whatever ) but nothing really bad about how they work...

[Cooter]

I can read complaints about everything ( room and whatever ) but nothing really bad about how they work...

Most windows roll right down on our cars, yet i see things like A/C and such...Wonder why if the windows roll down it almost has to have A/C then?

If a 318 can get you into a speeding ticket, works perfectly well, why do I see people spending HUGE money on 572 Supercharged/turbo'd HEMIS?

If an Automatic serves the purpose just fine, Wonder why i see so many converting to 4-speed/5-speed/6-speeds?

It's NOT ABOUT how well they work, it's about why NON Mopar [And some Mopar] People don't prefer the T-bars.


ROOM For improvement.

[Nacho-RT74]

Most windows roll right down on our cars, yet i see things like A/C and such...Wonder why if the windows roll down it almost has to have A/C then?

you don't need A/C all the time. I run A/C specially down the rain, to save from internal fog... or excesive heat outside

If a 318 can get you into a speeding ticket, works perfectly well, why do I see people spending HUGE money on 572 Supercharged/turbo'd HEMIS?

Hungry for power feeling

If an Automatic serves the purpose just fine, Wonder why i see so many converting to 4-speed/5-speed/6-speeds?

Full control on the car and shift when YOU want, not when tranny says, plus faster response when shifting or launching

It's NOT ABOUT how well they work, it's about why NON Mopar [And some Mopar] People don't prefer the T-bars.


ROOM For improvement.

there are pieces and parts made for T bar cars

[Cooter]

If an Automatic serves the purpose just fine, Wonder why i see so many converting to 4-speed/5-speed/6-speeds?

Full control on the car and shift when YOU want, not when tranny says, plus faster response when shifting or launching

And You've never pulled an automatic back in MANUAL 1st gear and shifted it when YOU wanted? Launching? Only if you hook it. An auto will hook with ALOT less parts. Shifting faster with manual? Possible, but I doubt it if on a timer.

It's NOT ABOUT how well they work, it's about why NON Mopar [And some Mopar] People don't prefer the T-bars.


ROOM For improvement.

there are pieces and parts made for T bar cars

If this were the case, as I stated, the Alter-K-tion kits wouldn't sell as they are. It's simple and you just feel like arguing...You all know the answer to this, you just don't wanna hear it. Done.

[HPP]

When you come right down to it, there are only four ways to spring a vehicle; coil, leaf, torsion, or air. Its been that way for 100 years. They all have pluses and minuses. Make you choice, run your race.

[Nacho-RT74]

[Bobs69]

I always thought a done up Mopar looks better under the hood at a car show because you didn't see the tower or splash guards.  I would like a stiffer ride without the increased hieght.

[Ghoste]

I agree and its a lot easier to change plugs in the Mopar too.

[Kern Dog]

Rear steer?
I've complained about this for years....THEN had what alcoholics refer to as "A moment of clarity". The traditional Mopar arrangement was designed to be light and efficient. Rear steer fit into the package for a few reasons. It moved the weight REARward which helped wight balance. The steering column could be shorter too, saving weight. Sure, this design sucks ass when you want to install headers, but it was in no way a flawed design. I've owned GM cars and their front steer design with coil springs is certainly a heavy and inferior design.

[Steve P.]

This is true in stock form. Tubular K's with front steer kick ass.. Even the power Rack 7 Pinion steering is lighter than the stock configuration. Coil overs are much lighter than factory coils in Chebby's and Ferds and I believe lighter than most T-bars.

If the aftermarket used better spindles I would be 100% pushing them.... Until then I wait....

[HPP]

I agree that Alertk are a neat set up. I want one. But the price/benefit ratio just isn't there for me.

At $4k+  for a complete assembly and 100# weight reduction, that's $40 a pound for weight loss. That's pretty pricey. By comparison fiberglass panels only cost around $10 a pound. Aluminum engine components come in around $25-30 a pound. Removing steel costs pennies per pound.

Sure, header clearence is nice, but as far as I can tell, no ones makes an AlterK specific header to take advantage of the extra room, so the extra room is a nicety and doesn't typically provide a huge benefit unless your going to custom headers that can be designed from scratch. What do they run, $1000+?

Coil overs allow quick spring and ride height changes, but then again, so does a t-bar set up. Once big advatnage to a coil over is the broad selection of available spring rates and the cost for those springs. But, I can't say I'ev read about many AlterK users, if any at all, who use their set up ina competition environment where these changes provide a distinct advantage. In fact, I'd bet most buyers use a set it and forget it mentality.

If you're actually competiting, there may be rules limitations that prohibite the considerably different mounting arrangement of the aftermarket type set ups. Outside of bracket racing at the dragstrip, most sanctioning bodies have rule set to prevent run away advantages by any particular set up.

So I'm not saying AlterK  is crap because of those points, but those points also mean they aren't the end all be all for everyone.

[Steve P.]

I agree HPP.... Though I agree about price and headers, I believe there is a great advantage in front steer. I also like a triangulated lower control arm.. Though they may not be the ticket for cornering, I believe they are a better K due to weight and strength and if you watch the front wheels land on a factory set up and a Alter-K, you will see a huge difference. All of the Alter-K video's I have watched have much better control of lift and no wheel shake when the front wheels touch down again....

The header clearance is only a part of it. Changing starters is way easier also. The biggest difference when using a Alter-K and other front steer K's is the capability of using a wider and flatter pan.. And those using floating pick ups and exterior lines now have that room needed.. The use of the wider/flatter pan keeps the pan from damage if the nose comes down really hard where many 6 Qt. pans are now done.... The nose can also be lowered quite a bit also helping in cutting through the air and down force at the high end... At least less float...

Of course it is an expensive deal, but so is everything else we do to make gains on or cars.. Hell, my car was just over $3000.00 brand new. You can't put half the motor together for that today!!  lol.....