Why do non-Mopar people hate torsion bars so much?

[Ghoste]

Why do people into Fords and GM products have such a negative view toward the torsion bar?  Do they really just not understand how they work or do they love fighting the shock tower when they change plugs in their big block?
It's not even as though Mopar is the only one who ever used it, there are some much vaunted sports cars that used it and strangely enough folks seem to praise the handling of those cars so what is the deal.  Is it anti t-bar or anti Chrysler or what?

[kab69440]

Because they've never used them. What I don't understand is why people remove them to install inferior coil sprung suspension systems. Torsion bars are simple, lightweight and easy to manipulate. I can't fathom why you'd want anything else?

[Cooter]

Because they've never used them. What I don't understand is why people remove them to install inferior coil sprung suspension systems. Torsion bars are simple, lightweight and easy to manipulate. I can't fathom why you'd want anything else?

Ever tried to get a really badass set of 2 1/4" primary underchassis Headers in a T-bar car with stock front suspension? Mopars have "Shock towers" to fight as well AND no room for those damn bars either.

You guys complain about the fit of TTI headers now. I can't remember any Brand X(Chevy) coil spring guys complaining about headers on their BBC.

Ford on the other hand is a DUMB design with those springs ABOVE the upper control arm, but they finally got figured out with the Must II.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Because they've never used them. What I don't understand is why people remove them to install inferior coil sprung suspension systems. Torsion bars are simple, lightweight and easy to manipulate. I can't fathom why you'd want anything else?

Ever tried to get a really badass set of 2 1/4" primary underchassis Headers in a T-bar car with stock front suspension? Mopars have "Shock towers" to fight as well AND no room for those damn bars either.

You guys complain about the fit of TTI headers now. I can't remember any Brand X(Chevy) coil spring guys complaining about headers on their BBC.

Ford on the other hand is a DUMB design with those springs ABOVE the upper control arm, but they finally got figured out with the Must II.

Mustangs do have the dumbest design -   Torsion bars are awesome - but header clearance is the major issue people have with them. 

GM guys still complain about header fitment...     then again those headers are like $80.   

[HPP]

Unfortuantly, if you really want to step up the wheel rates, the mopar t-bars come up short as the biggest you can fit these days is 1.22.

Lotsa new ;ight duty trucks use t-bars now, especially GM versions.

[Scaregrabber]

Ugh: You guys know that a coil spring is just a torsion bar that is wound right? There is one critical difference though torsion bars are not unsprung weight, coil springs are unsprung weight so a torsion bar car has the ability to handle better than a non-torsion bar car. Ford guys are generally okay but GM guys are generally ignorant of other makes.

Sheldon

[Cooter]

So The next time my buddy is watching NASCAR, I should look for the T-bars in the pits they are staggering right?

The next Time You order a Tubular K-frame from the aftermarket for handling upgrades, I should see big ass T-bars, instead of the Coilover shocks and Twin control arms.

So, All those Exotic Sports cars Should have a better handling T-bar set up then?

[Wicked72]

hmm good point. but hey t bars hold my car up!

[Brass]

Don't Porsches and Mercedes have torsion bars too?

[Ghoste]

Yes, or at least some of them do.

[Scaregrabber]

Cooter: Yes that NASCAR TBI setup is way better than multipoint injection as well. Keep buying what you see advertised in magazines.

Sheldon

[Nacho-RT74]

Love T bars, and love the fact to adjust it with just a bolt and not cutting or shimming coilovers!!!

My car was still with factory bars and just replaced because went with thicker ones for performance. however they were still with lot of life to come by. For a while any GM from same years ( 70s ) has changed their coilovers maybe 4 times on its life, maybe more.

Now, on an OVAL or CIRCUIT kind race useage, is not just the Bars or coilovers fact what changes, is ALL THE SUSPENSION... not even GMs or Fords keeps originals

[Nacho-RT74]

Now, why they HATE them... maybe because the fact THEY CAN'T USE THEM on their cars ? LOL

[Cooter]

Cooter: Yes that NASCAR TBI setup is way better than multipoint injection as well. Keep buying what you see advertised in magazines.

Sheldon

Wow. If T-bars were/are so awesome, I simply asked the question wonder why I don't see them being sold with those aftermarket front suspensions. Sure, would I swap them out for that Overpriced Front suspension with coilovers? No, I'm still running T-bars, because they are/were there....No cost to me.


PS: I "buy" very little from magazines. Most times, I have to fabricate many of my own parts, or get 'em online. Me? Fuel Injection? Multipoint-port, whatever?     Not, until it comes down in price to where I can "buy" [Albeit, Not from a magazine though] a Holley carb brand new for.

[elacruze]

Cooter: Yes that NASCAR TBI setup is way better than multipoint injection as well. Keep buying what you see advertised in magazines.

Sheldon

Wow. If T-bars were/are so awesome, I simply asked the question wonder why I don't see them being sold with those aftermarket front suspensions. Sure, would I swap them out for that Overpriced Front suspension with coilovers? No, I'm still running T-bars, because they are/were there....No cost to me.

You don't see them sold with aftermarket front suspensions because they don't fit in the factory holes for 99% of the market (GM) and Chrysler doesn't need aftermarket suspension. Duh.

[Cooter]

Chrysler doesn't need aftermarket suspension. Duh.

I'll remember that when I see yet another thread on here about those "Alter-k-tion" Kits being installed on ...well...A mopar.

[Mike DC]

 
T-bars make it impractical to change the suspension geometry very much, they make it very difficult to swap the setups over to a different chassis, and they lack aftermarket support.



When you're a GM/Ford guy, you're raised on the idea that suspension geometry is the biggest handling problem a classic car has. 

You also inherently need to swap in a T-bar setup to get one - because you're a GM/Ford guy. 

And you want aftermarket help for any swapping, because you don't know squat about what Mopars came with from the factory, and you wouldn't know where to get used Mopar stuff even if you did - again, because you're a GM/Ford guy.   

[elacruze]

Chrysler doesn't need aftermarket suspension. Duh.

I'll remember that when I see yet another thread on here about those "Alter-k-tion" Kits being installed on ...well...A mopar.

At risk of offending somebody who has done this, I see it as either wasted money or merely bling. Just my opinion, feel free to disregard it...

[Ghoste]

Agreed, have only seen one go through the conversion (on the car of an acquaintance) and I can't say that I will ever be doing it.

[Nacho-RT74]

well... who cares about GM/Ford guys hating T bars ? keep hating and I'll keep happy... AREN'T THEY HATING MOPARS FOR WHATEVER REASON ANYWAY ? I'll keep my T bars 40 years more for a while they will be replacing again maybe 3 times the coil overs on same years, or cutting and shimming coilovers to set the ride height, what I make with a bolt.

THEN THEY WILL HATE ME MORE WHEN SEE ME ABLE TO DO IT WITH ANY SPARK PLUG SOCKET AND A REGULAR RACHET ANYTIME

[bordin34]

Mopar T-bars I like because they have an adjustment to set ride height without re-indexing.
The t-bars in my 944 I dont like because there is no adjustment and you have to remove them to set ride height.

[Ghoste]

I guess the fact that very very few front end people seem to know how to properly align a Chrysler product with torsion bar would help get a bad rap too now that I think about it.

[Scaregrabber]

I think if Mopar's didn't have T-bars, that noisy starter and the cool looking alternator as well as other unique items I wouldn't like them near as much.

Sheldon

[BigBlackDodge]

If it's good enough for tanks it's good enough for my Charger! (which is very tank-like!)


BBD

[Inspector71]

Everyone's experience is different and mine no better than anyone else. In my many years, I have found too many Chivvy people who wouldn't get past wondering why anyone would drive other than a Chivvy to ponder torsion bars. The Ford people haven't been as bad.

[BIGBLCK11]

FWIW, I know it's not a muscle car, but Chevy did use torsion bars later on.  My 97 Tahoe had them.  While some people crank them up for lift, it just messes up the geometry, as Mike DC said.

[Steve P.]

I'm with COOTER.. Though for some different reasons, but I agree with his statements here..

Like everything else, auto tech has evolved. Some have gone to T-bars that never used them before, but have made them with better control bars. They have much more adjustment and are not in the way..

The aftermarket has covered much of the issues, but not one that fits what everyone wants.. I personally like the Alter-K-tion for many reasons. But I don't like it for another.. Like everything else there is normally room for improvement.   XV Motorsports has a pretty incredible system that is basically GM. The changes they made improve the system and can be adapted to our cars.

I too like having some room for big headers and headers that give the started some room. Stuffing that around T-bars is a hole lot of NO FUN.. Especially if you have a stick!!

My bigger complaint of mopar suspensions/front ends is the REAR STEERING.. Front steer gives a ton more room for a large oil pan without dragging the ground. Raising the nose or stuffing your drag link through an expensive oil pan.. With ALTER-K-TION for instance, it is a front steer system and gets rid of the t-bars. Now there is room for a junk yard truck oil pan for dirt cheap.. Of course if you can afford to change the complete K you can afford a nice pan, but this is not the issue. Cost I mean.. It is space and "G" force putting all your oil at the back of the pan.. Chevy whooped our ass on that....

[Steve P.]

Oh, did I mention the strength and difference in weight going to ALTER-K-TION.. Someone spoke of un-sprung weight. Add this to your thoughts...

Of course this is not for everyone and not that many actually need it, but with a few changes I would do one in a minute!!

[Nacho-RT74]

I can read complaints about everything ( room and whatever ) but nothing really bad about how they work...

[Cooter]

I can read complaints about everything ( room and whatever ) but nothing really bad about how they work...

Most windows roll right down on our cars, yet i see things like A/C and such...Wonder why if the windows roll down it almost has to have A/C then?

If a 318 can get you into a speeding ticket, works perfectly well, why do I see people spending HUGE money on 572 Supercharged/turbo'd HEMIS?

If an Automatic serves the purpose just fine, Wonder why i see so many converting to 4-speed/5-speed/6-speeds?

It's NOT ABOUT how well they work, it's about why NON Mopar [And some Mopar] People don't prefer the T-bars.


ROOM For improvement.

[Nacho-RT74]

Most windows roll right down on our cars, yet i see things like A/C and such...Wonder why if the windows roll down it almost has to have A/C then?

you don't need A/C all the time. I run A/C specially down the rain, to save from internal fog... or excesive heat outside

If a 318 can get you into a speeding ticket, works perfectly well, why do I see people spending HUGE money on 572 Supercharged/turbo'd HEMIS?

Hungry for power feeling

If an Automatic serves the purpose just fine, Wonder why i see so many converting to 4-speed/5-speed/6-speeds?

Full control on the car and shift when YOU want, not when tranny says, plus faster response when shifting or launching

It's NOT ABOUT how well they work, it's about why NON Mopar [And some Mopar] People don't prefer the T-bars.


ROOM For improvement.

there are pieces and parts made for T bar cars

[Cooter]

If an Automatic serves the purpose just fine, Wonder why i see so many converting to 4-speed/5-speed/6-speeds?

Full control on the car and shift when YOU want, not when tranny says, plus faster response when shifting or launching

And You've never pulled an automatic back in MANUAL 1st gear and shifted it when YOU wanted? Launching? Only if you hook it. An auto will hook with ALOT less parts. Shifting faster with manual? Possible, but I doubt it if on a timer.

It's NOT ABOUT how well they work, it's about why NON Mopar [And some Mopar] People don't prefer the T-bars.


ROOM For improvement.

there are pieces and parts made for T bar cars

If this were the case, as I stated, the Alter-K-tion kits wouldn't sell as they are. It's simple and you just feel like arguing...You all know the answer to this, you just don't wanna hear it. Done.

[HPP]

When you come right down to it, there are only four ways to spring a vehicle; coil, leaf, torsion, or air. Its been that way for 100 years. They all have pluses and minuses. Make you choice, run your race.

[Nacho-RT74]

[Bobs69]

I always thought a done up Mopar looks better under the hood at a car show because you didn't see the tower or splash guards.  I would like a stiffer ride without the increased hieght.

[Ghoste]

I agree and its a lot easier to change plugs in the Mopar too.

[Kern Dog]

Rear steer?
I've complained about this for years....THEN had what alcoholics refer to as "A moment of clarity". The traditional Mopar arrangement was designed to be light and efficient. Rear steer fit into the package for a few reasons. It moved the weight REARward which helped wight balance. The steering column could be shorter too, saving weight. Sure, this design sucks ass when you want to install headers, but it was in no way a flawed design. I've owned GM cars and their front steer design with coil springs is certainly a heavy and inferior design.

[Steve P.]

This is true in stock form. Tubular K's with front steer kick ass.. Even the power Rack 7 Pinion steering is lighter than the stock configuration. Coil overs are much lighter than factory coils in Chebby's and Ferds and I believe lighter than most T-bars.

If the aftermarket used better spindles I would be 100% pushing them.... Until then I wait....

[HPP]

I agree that Alertk are a neat set up. I want one. But the price/benefit ratio just isn't there for me.

At $4k+  for a complete assembly and 100# weight reduction, that's $40 a pound for weight loss. That's pretty pricey. By comparison fiberglass panels only cost around $10 a pound. Aluminum engine components come in around $25-30 a pound. Removing steel costs pennies per pound.

Sure, header clearence is nice, but as far as I can tell, no ones makes an AlterK specific header to take advantage of the extra room, so the extra room is a nicety and doesn't typically provide a huge benefit unless your going to custom headers that can be designed from scratch. What do they run, $1000+?

Coil overs allow quick spring and ride height changes, but then again, so does a t-bar set up. Once big advatnage to a coil over is the broad selection of available spring rates and the cost for those springs. But, I can't say I'ev read about many AlterK users, if any at all, who use their set up ina competition environment where these changes provide a distinct advantage. In fact, I'd bet most buyers use a set it and forget it mentality.

If you're actually competiting, there may be rules limitations that prohibite the considerably different mounting arrangement of the aftermarket type set ups. Outside of bracket racing at the dragstrip, most sanctioning bodies have rule set to prevent run away advantages by any particular set up.

So I'm not saying AlterK  is crap because of those points, but those points also mean they aren't the end all be all for everyone.

[Steve P.]

I agree HPP.... Though I agree about price and headers, I believe there is a great advantage in front steer. I also like a triangulated lower control arm.. Though they may not be the ticket for cornering, I believe they are a better K due to weight and strength and if you watch the front wheels land on a factory set up and a Alter-K, you will see a huge difference. All of the Alter-K video's I have watched have much better control of lift and no wheel shake when the front wheels touch down again....

The header clearance is only a part of it. Changing starters is way easier also. The biggest difference when using a Alter-K and other front steer K's is the capability of using a wider and flatter pan.. And those using floating pick ups and exterior lines now have that room needed.. The use of the wider/flatter pan keeps the pan from damage if the nose comes down really hard where many 6 Qt. pans are now done.... The nose can also be lowered quite a bit also helping in cutting through the air and down force at the high end... At least less float...

Of course it is an expensive deal, but so is everything else we do to make gains on or cars.. Hell, my car was just over $3000.00 brand new. You can't put half the motor together for that today!!  lol.....