Stall-Out question:

[Captain D]

Hi all,

This newbie had a question regarding a stall-out when I took the 69' Charger out for a quick run yesterday.

The car had been sitting for about a week since I was out of town and I wanted to run it when I got back. For the first time since I've owned the car, I got about 10 minutes up the road and everything just shut down on me. I had just enough power steering to pull off the side of the road. After I tried restarting it, it did fire back up and I was able to return back home. After I got home, I had to shut the car down for something had come up but when I went to restart it to park it back in the garage, it wouldn't fire back up.

The car was getting plenty of gas, and everything under the hood is new with no leaks, etc. The only thing that I can come up with is that the mechanic who worked on the car previously noted that the blue/green fusion-link wire that is attached to the starter relay may be in need of replacement because the car had problems starting for him until he jiggled this blue fusion-link wire on the starter relay and it started back up for him. But, my main question is (if I have to replace this fusion-link wire - along with the starter relay), would this problem make the car stall out when actually driving it?  

I realize that replacing the starter relay, along with the fusion-link wire (which, I can get the wire at Advance Auto for a few bucks with the correct gauge) is needed at this point, but do you feel that these items would make the car stall-out when driving it? Is this related do you feel? I just wouldn't think that the car would stall out when the car is fired up and running if it was the starter relay and fusion-link, but hey, maybe it would be. Maybe I need to adjust the choke once again to ensure that we have a good air/fuel mixture.

Thank you for any and all replies,
Aaron

 

[W4ATL]

There is a simple schematic here http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0.html that will help you with how the wiring is done. Basically, that fusible link connection feeds just about everything in the car, including the ignition. You need to fix that loose connection. You can get a new 14 or 12 gauge wire and fusible link for the auto parts store.

Also consider improving the bulkhead connection by running an additional wire as shown in the link.

[Captain D]

Thank you W4ATL for the reply,

The fusible-link wire needs to be replaced ASAP, no doubt, especially if it seems that its the culprit as to why the car stalled out the other day on the road while driving. Thank you again for the reply as well as for the diagrams. This newbie isn't too familiar w/ the 'bulkhead' term on these cars, so I'll certainly do some some searches on here to understand what this is and to print up this material for the shop so that it gets done as best as possible.

All the best,
Aaron   

[W4ATL]

I've certainly learned a lot on this board! The bulkhead connector is where wires from the engine compartment go inside the car to the dash area. It is on the driver's side of the firewall above the steering column. All the current for the car goes through this connector to the ammeter and then back out through this connector to the alternator. That is what the diagrams are showing you. This is a failure point in the electrical system since a lot of electrical current is going through a flimsy connector in the firewall. Hence, all the modifications and discussions you see on this board.

Good luck!

[Captain D]

Thanks again man for your time and guidance - great info  .

I've recently purchased a new starter relay (a good insurance since I'm at this point), but since I've never replaced anything like this before myself and will probably simply take it to a shop so that it will be done correctly, how long will something like this take up to to replace approximately (starter relay/wiring - both new fusion-link and bulkhead) just so that I may have an idea cost-wise going into something like this?

Thank you again for your time,
Aaron

[resq302]

Aaron,

There is a chance that the connections at the bulk head on the firewall are either crusty or dirty.  I would disconnect that and check all of the wires and clean them up as best as possible. 

As for the fuseable link being the problem?  Either that fails or it is good.  Unless it has a dirty or corroded end, the wire is either one or the other.  As others have said, the fuseable link wire feeds the entire car and is a fail safe should individual fuses not blow.  If this were to fail, nothing in the car would work at all so I highly doubt you  have to replace it unless it is corroded.

Is the problem with your engine when you start it and as soon as you take your hand off the key, the engine dies?  If so, I would try replacing the ballast resistor (ceramic looking thing on the firewall).  These were typical for unexpected failure and would allow the engine to start when cranking it over but as soon as you take your hand off the key, it would cause the engine to die.  The first thing my dad told me to do when I got my charger was to buy a spare one of these and keep it in the glove box as they were known to go at any moment.

[Captain D]

Thank you Brian for the reply,  

You may very well be correct in regards to the ballast resistor as the problem - everything else electrical works just fine in the car and my car's issue is just as you described it in that, "the problem with your engine when you start it and as soon as you take your hand off the key, the engine dies?"

I have electronic ignition in the car, as well as a 70 amp alternator - which I then had to upgrade with a higher amp voltage regulator - so when looking up which ballast resistor to purchase, I came across this Mallory for use with electronic ignition (instead of an old stock ballast resistor that is currently on there now) :

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Resistors-Mallory_17350032-P_205_R|GRPTUNEAMS_____

I suppose its a process of elimination, but it certainly sounds that you may be correct in this problem. It'll be here in a few days, so I'll be sure to post back again soon to let you know how things went. The only thing that has me curious and thinking that it was the fusion-link was that, when the car did the exact same thing a time or two at the previous garage, the fusion-link was worked to enable the car to fire up and stay on. However, when I replaced the starter relay, I saw no clear evidence of any corrosion on any of the end terminals, etc. but I gently cleaned them all up to where they were perfect just for heck of it while replacing the relay. Although, it certainly makes sense that a fusion-link failure is either black or white - no gray area - so to speak with everything else working on the car just fine, that and the fact there was no corrosion, it very well may be the ballast resistor. It just had me guessing as to why, when working the fusion-link wire, the car fired up then...? But anyhow, thank you for the info and I'm anxious to get the resistor to check it out!  

Thank you again for your time and high regards my friend,
Aaron

[Back N Black]

You can use a jumper wire across the ballast resistor, to make sure thats the problem.

[Captain D]

Well guys, back to the drawing board. There was no change after I installed a new quality ballast resistor. The car would turn over, is if it just started, and just as quickly as it fired up; it shut itself back down. No leaks, sparks, fumes, etc. at all whatsoever.

Although it has been previously noted that if it was the fusion-link, than nothing else electronically on the car would work - that is my only guess at this point (even though everything electronically on my car still works just fine) simply because the car did something similar at the previous garage. And, the mechanic was able to work this blue/green fusion-link wire and was able to get the car to start. So, with that being said, maybe I'll just go ahead and have that replaced next. So far, I've replaced the starter relay, voltage regulator, and the ballast resistor.

However, regardless of the problem, it made the car stall out 10 minutes up the road when driving it. I was able to get it restarted and drive it home, but it hasn't been able to stay on since then. I was thinking that maybe its the coil, wires/points of the electronic ignition, plugs...but all of that was just replaced not long ago (less than a year). Does something like this sound indicative of a fusion-link or something else? Maybe when the car stalled out on the road, it was an indication that the fusion-link is going up, and about to go out altogether perhaps...? When I disconnected it at the starter relay, there was no corrosion and it looked clean, but it may be worth cleaning it up round' the bulkheads and just replacing.

I had seen a link somewhere on the forum site that sold fusion-links, but haven't come across it yet. I'll keep searching and see if I can learn how to replace one as well before I just drop it off at the garage since I'm getting low on ideas as to what this could be,  

Thanks again for any info,
Aaron  

[resq302]

Aaron,

Easy way to see if the fuseable link is bad is with a continuity tester.  Test one end of it with one probe and then put the other probe on the other end.  If it tester beeps, you know its good!  Easy way to rule that part out.

I also had a bad pick up one time in my distributor with electronic ignition.  When it would warm up it would crap out and make the car backfire.  Just a thought.

[Captain D]

Thanks man,

Can't say that I have one of those,  , but hey, I'm open to any and all ideas at this juncture. I'll check to see what the price may be going for @ Auto-Zone, Advance, - thank you again for the tips  .

When looking over the wires at or near the bulkhead, I did come across the yellow one that runs up from the starter to the starter relay. At some point in its life, it looks like a previous owner did a half-way patch up job about mid-way on the wire itself. It looked burnt, but not a recent burn however, so whether or not its the source of this specific problem - it has to get replaced.

Thank you again for the replies guys and hopefully we'll get things squared away soon...
All the best,
Aaron

[FLG]

Is that a points distributor? Try cleaning em up with a bit of sand paper.

[resq302]

I have a Craftsman digital multi meter.  I think I paid around $20 or so for it.  Tests DC current, AC current, OHMS, continuity, etc.  Valuable tool to have.  I actually just got a newer multi meter made by Actron which also includes a dwell feature for setting points.  The new multi meter cost aroudn $25-30.  Well worth it!

[myk]

Gotta have a multi-meter and/or a test light.  And I'll take this opportunity to again say "damn those bulkhead connectors!" 

[Captain D]

Thanks gents for the replies - I will be sure to check one out this weekend. I actually chatted w/ the Mopar guru that rebuilt my engine four years ago, and he seemed to think that it was the distributor. But, he, understandably, doesn't know all of the info that I stated here in this thread or tested the car out himself.

Is it common for an electronic ignition distributor cap and rotor to go out? My kit is only about a year and half old, but new doesn't necessarily mean it'll last 30 yrs. I found a cap and rotor if you feel that its worth a shot replacing:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_distributor-cap-bwd_5201284-p?vehicleIdFromReq=-1&isAllVehicle=true&vehicleIdSearch=-1&searchTerm=c191z&showTitle=

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_distributor-rotor-bwd_5202221-p?vehicleIdFromReq=-1&isAllVehicle=true&vehicleIdSearch=-1&searchTerm=d147z&showTitle=

Another friend of mine suggested that I run a wire from the positive battery terminal to the positive side of the coil to see if it starts and runs. If so, to then check ALL wires to the bulkhead connectors; especially the one that runs to the ignition switch. This is basically what has been mentioned earlier by various members on here more or less - checking all of the wires in and around the bulkhead and cleaning it. I have a feeling that this is probably the best route to go/start with before I replace the distributor cap and rotor - unless anyone on here thinks otherwise that it would be worth a shot.

In cleaning the bulkhead and replacing some of the wires I wouldn't 'think' that it would cost too much. For those who have gone this route, do you have a ballpark idea what something like this may be approximately, cost wise? Whichever wire it may be, it caused the car to stall out while driving it, so I definitely want to make sure that it gets replaced.

Thanks again,
Aaron



 

[FLG]

Again, if its a points distributor....try cleaning em.

[Captain D]

Well, I checked them and everything, both on the male and female terminals, looked very clean - nothing to sand off since its all relatively new. That's why I wonder if the cap is just faulty and prone to not sending any spark to the plugs. But, even the replacement caps seem like they tend to get negative reviews.
Thanks again,
Aaron

[FLG]

Not the terminals, the actual points (if its not an electronic distributor) item B in this picture

[Cooter]

Will it stay running if you hold the Ignition switch in the start position? If so, I'd be lookin' at that.

[Captain D]

Hi 'Cooter' - To answer your question, unfortunately, no it won't stay running in that state. Btw, pretty good lookin' Lee you have in your pic from what I can see. That's what I have here (the General Lee) and am working with in this thread. I have family in Virginia, whereabouts are you located if I may ask? I actually just met Ben Jones/Cooter at Carlisle,PA to sign some goodies last weekend.

FLG - I apologize, I should have stated it earlier in the game but I have electronic ignition. I called and made an appointment with the shop for next Wednesday morning to have my car brought in if I can't get it to turn over and stay on. But as Brian, and a few other members have pointed out, its worthwhile to try to clean the bulkheads and get a multi-meter. Since mine does look a lil' dirty at the bulkheads, maybe that will be my next mini-project in the meantime. I read that the bulkhead can be disconnected - with not much time after work tonight to see how it may come apart from the firewall to be cleaned - any tips on how to go about doing this properly so that I don't damage anything in the process?

Thanks again - but as a side note in trying to look on the bright side of this issue - the longer it takes me to uncover the problem, the more I'm actually learning about the car in general, under the hood at least,  . Good stuff because I want to be able to maintain my car, but just the same altogether...I think I'm ready to now finally find the source of this problem, lol.
Aaron

[Cooter]

Hi 'Cooter' - To answer your question, unfortunately, no it won't stay running in that state. Btw, pretty good lookin' Lee you have in your pic from what I can see. That's what I have here (the General Lee) and am working with in this thread. I have family in Virginia, whereabouts are you located if I may ask? I actually just met Ben Jones/Cooter at Carlisle,PA to sign some goodies last weekend.

Sho nuff...Located in Appomattox Va. Well, with the electronic Ignition, is it factory Chrysler like From Mopar Perf.? "Orange" Box? I've had nothing but problems from those set ups.

[Captain D]

Hi Cooter - Yes, based on your description that sounds like what we may have. Though this may or may not be the correct part number necessarily, if this is what you're thinking of than this is what mine looks like:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JEGS-Performance-Products-40035-Electronic-Ignition-Conversion-Kit-/310383131101?hash=item484446b9dd&item=310383131101&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

If I may ask -

1.) What exactly did you, or still do, have concerns with these type of conversion kits? What type of problems did you run into w/ these? It would be a shame if this is the problem since its so new and hardly ever used on the car.

2.) But did you have a similar issue that I am currently having (car not starting, stalling out while on the road, etc.) when using these conversion kits?

3.) And lastly, if the problem is this distributor, which replacement pieces did you end up replacing on yours, such as the cap, wiring harness, etc. Below is the cap, the harness, and box that i was able to find:

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Distributor-Cap/_/N-8gctb?itemIdentifier=111203_0_0_
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/40801/10002/-1?parentProductId=
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/40800/10002/-1?parentProductId=

The more that I read about the coil, it has me guessing that it could be a factor as well (it not starting, but I have no misfiring though). Its mounted right on the intake - probably too hot a location for it to sit I'm sure even if its not the primary cause. I'm unsure if this makes a difference or not, but my alternator is a 75 amp and I recently changed the voltage regulator to accommodate that alternator. About a week later, we started having these problems. It could be related with regards to the coil, but based on what I've been reading about these ECU units, it may be worthwhile to replace it. I came across two @ Summit with two different price tags, but appear to do the same thing more or less:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850018/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-4120505/

Thanks again for any and all replies,
Aaron

[resq302]

Aaron,

The stock location for the coil is on the intake in front of the carb so I doubt if Chrysler put it there, they were planning on it being too hot of a location and having multiple warranty issues.

[Captain D]

Thanks man for the reply,

Even though the lights didn't grow dimmer, with the car stalling out while driving it and not being able to restart it once we got it back home, it could be the alternator. I recall a faint whistling sound several weeks ago coming from this region of the car (perhaps it was the bearings even though its practically only a few years old), which may be another indication that the alternator was about to give up the ghost.

I just installed a new voltage regulator to accommodate this 75 amp alternator - which sucks because it was $70. In looking for replacement alternators, I may have to look for at least a 60 amp alternator that would work well w/ this new voltage regulator. The gauge on the cluster did indicate that we have a solid 14v reading, so I'm unsure if this is a possible alternator problem or not...

I was able to find one in doing a quick search, if need be:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_alternator--60-amps-worldwide_5210135-p?searchTerm=alternator#fragment-3
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-812106/
Aaron  

[myk]

You can get these components tested if you're unsure about their state...

[Captain D]

Yes, I'm looking to get one very soon - great tool to have hands down.

Another friend suggested that I replace the wire that runs from the coil to the very center of the distributor cap - that runs everything he stated. It seems that the local parts stores sell it, but only as a universal set (Accel) for $37.

Because it at least fired up - if only for a second - he seemed to rule out the ECU unit module, the alternator, the coil itself, the ballast resistor, and believed it to be either the distributor, the cap, rotor, and/or this specific wire that runs from the coil to the distributor. So, we'll see what happens from there...
Aaron

[resq302]

Something just doesn't sound right.  What would cause it to immediately die after you let your hand off of the ignition switch?       Do you have a spare ignition switch to try out?  Or at least check for continuity when the switch is in a certain position?

[Captain D]

Hey there Brian,

Yeah, frustrating indeed. As noted above, a friend of mine suggested replacing the wire from the coil to the distributor. So, I went and got one for $5 this evening, but I have a feeling that this isn't the problem. But hey, I'll give it a try tomorrow to see what happens  . As I was driving away, I noticed that Auto Zone will test your electronic modular box to see how good it is. I may have it done soon since I haven't purchased a meter as of yet. Had I known that they do that there, I would have taken it along w/ me but I'll have it tested before we take the car to the garage on Wednesday.  

That's interesting that you mentioned the ignition switch - I was just thinking about it myself too. I had this replaced about 3-4 years ago, but if this was the problem, can a 6-prong reproduction ignition starter be used to house the actual ignition switch (with my current cylinder and key)? Here were a few ebay links below (but what's up w/ the wide price range? Any pros/cons with a specific name brand?):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-69-Dodge-Charger-Polara-Ignition-Starter-Switch-/120371206962?hash=item1c06aedb32&item=120371206962&pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMP-STANDARD-US-50-Switch-Ignition-Starter-/261066395107?fits=Year:1969|Model:Charger&hash=item3cc8c50de3&item=261066395107&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Perhaps its the problem since I read that if everything else in the car works fine (headlights, wipers, tail-lights, etc.), but the car won't start - then the problem is not battery related - but could be the ignition switch. I've came across a few being sold on ebay between the range as little as $15/$25 to about $100 - but what's up with the wide price range? I suppose its one of those 'who get what you pay for' deals more or less...?

With that being said, I wonder if a common sign of a faulty ignition switch has anything to do with the previous garage's ability to work the blue/green fusion-link to help it start in the past, and the car's stalling out while driving it on the road...? For those with more experience than I on this topic, could there be a connection somewhere somehow?

Btw - I believe somewhere on here I read to make sure to have a good ground w/ the electronic ECU modular box by removing a little extra of the paint on the firewall where the bolts hold it into place. If that is true, I can try that as well.

Thanks again,
Aaron

[resq302]

Yes, you definitely have to have a very good ground for the ECU box.  Otherwise, that could cause all kinds of problems.  I attached mine to bare steel and then put some dielectric grease dabbed onto the contact points prior to mounting it to ensure no corrosion could happen.

[Back N Black]

Check your ignition switch before buying a new one.

With the key in RUN there should be continuity between BAT_IGN1_ACC, with the key in START there should be continuity between BAT_IGN2_ST and IGN1 and ACC should lose continuity to BAT. With the key in ACCESSORIES there should be continuity between BAT_ACC.

The GRD terminal is used only on some bodies and there should be continuity between the GRD terminal and the switch housing in START.

[Captain D]

Hi all,

Just to state an update on the outcome at the shop this past Wednesday:

When the car first arrived, the main mechanic - the Chrysler expert/Mopar guru - ran a jump/hot-wire from the coil to the battery just to rule out that it wasn't fuel pump/filter related and, sure enough, the car immediately fired up and ran fine. I explained to him how the previous body-shop was able to work the wires that ran from the bulkhead and was able to get the car started. So, he checked everything and determined that indeed the bulkhead definitely needed cleaning - which explained the stall-outs and the car's inability to fire up and stay running.

With that being said, I feel embarrassed that it was something as simple and minor as the bulkhead (as another member posted on here: those ^%$# bullheads  ),  - but I have to say that I am extremely grateful for everyone who responded with some info with possible causes of this problem - all around a great group of guys on this forum hands-down! One member in particular who especially deserves public recognition is Brian (resq302). Brian was kind enough to go that extra mile to rush me an ignition switch overnight with expedited shipping just so that we could have it on hand if need be while @ the shop on Wednesday - an all round' top rate member on here!    

With that being said, I have to admit - I definitely feel that I learned a lot regarding the many other components under the hood, their functioning, and what to look for if/when something like this happens again in the future. Many thanks to this forum!!  
High regards,
Aaron  

[resq302]

Aaron,

It was only over night because you live so close by!  I am always glad to help out a fellow mopar enthusiast. (actually ANY car enthusiast)  No recognition is needed.  Just paying it forward like other people on here have helped me out.  Just glad that even though it was not the ignition switch that if it was, you could have had one there to test out and at least get your car on the road again till you could have gotten one for yourself.  After all, we are all here to learn about and love our dear Mopars and to keep them on the road right?  Why not help each other out in the process!   

Working on, fixing, and even just doing research on our cars helps us learn the individual quirks of our cars. 

Again, glad to hear that your car is fixed and back on the road!