Challenger T/A and 'Cuda AAR mandatory mileage

[resq302]

thanks Dave!  Now I'm hungry and I don't even have a Denny's anywhere close to me.       Look out fridge..... here I come! 

[ECS]

thanks Dave!  Now I'm hungry and I don't even have a Denny's anywhere close to me.       Look out fridge..... here I come!  

Well here you go Mr. B!  I'll post it again.  You have to admit, it exactly represents the type of "back peddling" I mentioned in an earlier thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6PgJ3TX6AQ&feature=plcp 


Oh, I see!  You meant THOSE miles on Sales Bank cars....now I realize that it was actually THOSE miles on Sales Bank cars!  Thanks for clearing that up Tom!

[pettybird]

It still doesn't add up to me.  


First, please use a number around 5000 instead of 2500, unless you have a reason to think that Dodge did what you're saying but not Plymouth.

Second, my main area of interest is wing cars.  Coincidentally, the Superbirds came out in the same year, in almost the same quantity as the AAR, and were far and away bigger albatrosses.  There is no information about Chrysler driving 90% of them to get them sold to dealers any more quickly than doing nothing.  In fact, there are memos in the book Supercars where Chrysler was yelling at regions to get the cars sold, and there are plenty of stories of cars being sold at normal prices in the summer of 1970.  Yes, dealers like Ken Brown offered large discounts off of MSRP, but as I understand they bought them from other dealers to do so.  You can believe me--I've ridden in that $3195 six pack 'bird  

I have NO DOUBT that SOME cars may have been driven a bunch of miles before delivery to dealer...if nothing else it's a good way to make certain that your product is seen on the streets.  I just don't see why Chrysler would have given up on selling a new, unique product so quickly after its release, especially with the success seen with the Z28 and Boss 302 cars.  They must have thought enough of it to at least mock up a prototype '71--the yellow car in the ad.  Why would they have spent a nickel on that if they had lost money on nearly every unit?  There are no factory ads for a G series wing car, for instance.

As far as "insulting" your friends, please accept any apology I can offer for that, though I never intended to do so.  I said that things can get misremembered 40 years later, especially when those things really weren't consequential to their lives or careers.  I've heard stories get altered over the years from the same sources (I've been around this stuff since before my second birthday in 1977) and I take most of it with a grain of salt.  Ralph told you that all T/A's were sales bank cars, and you've seen otherwise.  He saw what he saw, and he must have seen enough to make an assumption.  Besides, it was a cool car but not exactly a pivotal moment in his existence, and one that probably didn't burn itself into his memory like we'd want them to as people who enjoy and breathe this stuff 40 years on.  In the spring of '70 he must have thought the muscle car race wouldn't end...why bother with those Trans Am cars?  They'd probably have three hemis in the trunk by 73!

You're into muscle Mopars of that era.  I really only care about the very special subset of wing cars.  Your friends had a lot more going on then than I could possibly keep up with now, and that was 40 years ago...

[ECS]

As far as "insulting" your friends, please accept any apology I can offer for that, though I never intended to do so.  I said that things can get misremembered 40 years later, especially when those things really weren't consequential to their lives or careers.  I've heard stories get altered over the years from the same sources (I've been around this stuff since before my second birthday in 1977) and I take most of it with a grain of salt.  Ralph told you that all T/A's were sales bank cars, and you've seen otherwise.  He saw what he saw, and he must have seen enough to make an assumption.  Besides, it was a cool car but not exactly a pivotal moment in his existence, and one that probably didn't burn itself into his memory like we'd want them to as people who enjoy and breathe this stuff 40 years on.  In the spring of '70 he must have thought the muscle car race wouldn't end...why bother with those Trans Am cars?  They'd probably have three hemis in the trunk by 73!

Hi Doug!  You don't know how much it means to me that you took the time to express those thoughts.  I thank you from the bottom of my heart!  I too owe you an apology for the comments that I made which were not very kind.  I hope you will forgive my insensitive responses.

I want everyone that has been following this thread to know that Tom & Dave are two of my BEST Friends and I see them on (just about) a daily basis.  Tom is the RPM Project and Development manager for ECS and we usually go to lunch everyday.  He can attest that the information I have been posting has been consistent with our discussions over the past few weeks.  I apologize if my descriptive did not represent the facts like I thought they did.  I certainly did not provide the in depth details that he did in his first post but always thought I was relaying the information the way he and I discussed it.  I usually have him review my comments before I post them in order to maintain accuracy.  

We have researched Broadcast Sheets that are sequential in number but are even and oddly spaced in their Sales Bank status.  One shows a Sales Bank car, the very next one shows a non-Sales Bank car.  When I told Dave this finding he said that the "non-Sales Bank" cars might still be Sales Bank cars that were ordered to blend in with the other units.  Chrysler didn't want all of those cars to be "documented" as vehicles with no place to be sold, so they would list them in a stealth type manner.  I know....I know....it gets crazier by the moment!    Ralph was (technically) correct in his commentary because the only cars he was involved with were the Sales Bank vehicles.  There would have been no need for him to be concerned or involved with a vehicle that had already been sold.  In essence, 100% of what he was involved with were the Sales Bank vehicles.   We are going to get him to expound on this information.  Hopefully, Dave Stuart will be registered by tomorrow to add additional data.  When he (and Tom) explain it, it makes complete sense even though it is hard to keep track of all the various scenarios.

[ECS]

I just don't see why Chrysler would have given up on selling a new, unique product so quickly after its release, especially with the success seen with the Z28 and Boss 302 cars.  They must have thought enough of it to at least mock up a prototype '71--the yellow car in the ad.  Why would they have spent a nickel on that if they had lost money on nearly every unit?  There are no factory ads for a G series wing car, for instance.

I hope Tom will come back to elaborate on this point but he said that Chrysler simply wanted to be part of the race bad enough to lose $ on these cars.  The "mileage mandate" that appears to be the focal point was not required by the SCCA.  It was simply a byproduct for how Chrysler chose to channel the vehicles once they were produced.  They did not want them to be idle Inventory so their only outlet was to drive and sell them as used cars under the MSO.  "Mandate" may have been a bad word choice but it is what Ralph Wiedner used to describe the scenario when we spoke for the first time at Monster Mopar.  (Sorry held1823 but that is a fact and not a "back peddle".)  By the way Greg, the $20,000,000 amount of Inventory was based on 5000 vehicles as you suggested.  Tom rounded off the value of each car to about $4,000 and multiplied that by 5000 units.

[ECS]

rather than stay the course, you attempt to set sail for whatever path makes you both (A) appear to have been correct from the start......

In all fairness I owe you an apology for comments I made regarding this entire ordeal.  You are completely incorrect however with your depiction of the facts as they unfolded here.  (Hindsight is certainly 20/20)  If you watched the video with Ralph Weidner, I simply expressed the information exactly the way he presented it to me in July.  As stated from the beginning, I had no opinion either way so I had no agenda other than conveying information that I found to be unique in nature.  As the ordeal continued and information was researched, specifics to a generalized statement started to develop.  It was me who posted information contrary to what Ralph had stated in the video.  Do you recall my comment from reply #125:

"We are finding many Sales Bank cars but also found a few that were supposedly Dealer ordered.  Ralph states in the video that "all" Trans Am cars were Sales Bank but a small portion of my Broadcast Sheets do not have a number listed in the Sales Bank column."

I can assure you that if my purpose were just to be "correct from the start", I would not have contradicted my original position with the statement above.  This subject matter is no different than ANY other I have been involved with.  You continue to learn and gain insight as you research the data.  If in fact you did a Google search specific to my other areas of interest, you HAD to have come across one of my signature statements:  

History never changes........only our perception and awareness of the facts as it relates to History.

[maxwellwedge]

Have not read this entire post but I have a couple of comments that may or may not mean anything....

I have a T/A sold new at G-S Dodge (and a ton of paper from the dealer for that vehicle) that shows something like 5 miles on the sales agreement.

For fun, I asked Mr. Norm about this (who sold more than 1 or 2 T/A's.......He actually has over 70 unsold Dealer Jackets left.....plus the ones that he has sold, puts the number at almost 100 units!)......He said G-S never put miles on them nor were they directed to. It would make them used cars. With that many T/A's sold.....he would still be driving them - Lol. That's what he said......take it for what it's worth. Your mileage may vary 

Doug's comment about the Z's Bosses, AMC's etc. was a good one as well.

[Ghoste]

I think what has been established was that some TA cars that were in the sales bank had mileage put on them in order to move them to dealers.  Rationale being that sales bank demo's, for want of a  better term, went to dealers at discounted rate and were therefore more quickly snapped up.  In this way Chrysler would be able to show that all homologation units were delviered and not just sitting in Chrysler''s own inventory.  Cars the Norm ordered for the lot or pulled from the sales bank prior to Chrysler getting antsy about meeting the quota would not have had miles on them.

[ECS]

He said G-S never put miles on them nor were they directed to. It would make them used cars.

If he bought the cars, they were his property to do as he pleased.  He was a "performance" dealership.  Unlike the majority of other Dealerships, he was probably happy to take possession of those type of vehicles because they represented the "personality" of his Dealership.  The Chrysler corporation CHOSE to drive their Sales Bank Inventory so they could be sold at a discount under the MSO.  It was nothing more than a business decision to recoup their Inventory investment based on the 2500 vehicle mandate that was sanctioned by the SCCA.  Mr. Norm willingly purchased this type of vehicle and they probably didn't stay in his Inventory for a very long time.  Again, a Sales Bank car is owned by Chrysler.  A vehicle ordered by a Dealership is owned by the Dealership.  If Mr. Norm ordered his T/As they were not Sales Bank cars and were his to do as he pleased.  Chrysler wouldn't have had the jurisdiction to tell him what he had to do with his vehicles.

[Ghoste]

So Dave is my understanding of it now essentially correct as well?

[ECS]

So Dave is my understanding of it now essentially correct as well?

Yes Mr. Ghoste!  It was actually the 2500 vehicle mandate from the SCCA that caused the the chain of events that followed.  To be more accurate, the SCCA didn't care if the cars were on the road or driven.  Chrysler met the homologation criteria when they manufactured the vehicles.  It was the Chrysler Corporate that decided to get rid of their Inventory in this expeditious manner.  In a perfect World, Chrysler wanted an order for every vehicle they manufactured.  The Trans Am ordeal was a scenario that was not the normal business avenue for the way Chrysler marketed their vehicles.  I was hoping Dave Stuart would have signed on by now to explain this a bit further.  He said that some Dealerships actually had Sales Banks cars forced on them whether they wanted them or not.  They made all kinds of bundling deals.  The Dealership would get 5 good cars if they would take an undesirable vehicle (or two) in the mix.  Did you ever think anyone would refer to a Trans Am car as an "undesirable" vehicle?  How times changed!

[Ghoste]

Yeah, I think they have all have always had sales bank cars forced on them and the practice continues today.  Although I don't think the Big 3 maintain the sales bank they once did.

[ECS]

Yeah, I think they have all have always had sales bank cars forced on them and the practice continues today.  Although I don't think the Big 3 maintain the sales bank they once did.

You are 100% correct!  This still takes place today.  The reason the other brand X vehicles did not run into this same "problem" was due to the fact that they had already complied with the SCCA regulations.  Chrysler was literally manufacturing these Trans Am cars a day or two prior to the race taking place.  They did not leave themselves much time to comply with the homologation requirements and wanted to unload these "new type" race cars and quickly recoup their investment.