Challenger T/A and 'Cuda AAR mandatory mileage

[ECS]

While I can't state with any degree of certainty what did happen back in 1970, I can at least say the discussion with Dave and Tom shed a lot more light on what MIGHT have been the impetus behind the mileage thing - although it makes the most sense to me if it was in relation to unassigned cars rather than the entire number of Trans Am program vehicles (again, I'm anything BUT an expert in this field).

Thanks Gene!  
As I type this, Tom and I are going through the hundreds of Broadcast Sheets that I have accumulated and are pulling all of the Trans Am sheets.  We are finding many Sales Bank cars but also found a few that were supposedly Dealer ordered.  Ralph states in the video that "all" Trans Am cars were Sales Bank but a small portion of my Broadcast Sheets do not have a number listed in the Sales Bank column.  No number in the column would have designated a vehicle that was "stock ordered" by the Dealer.  Some cars have a 4 listed in the Sales Bank section while others have a 6 listed in that slot.  The 4 meant the car was ordered for an individual through a Dealership and the 6 meant it was a true Sales Bank vehicle owned by the Chrysler Corporation.  

Tom believes that some of the Dealers may have ordered the cars when they received a flyer or bulletin (before computers) stating what was soon to be available.  The Dealership would have paid for and owned the car the moment it rolled off of the Assembly Line.  The Corporation owned the vehicle as a Sales Bank car until it was sold or placed in service by the Dealership.  Ralph Weidner (and other Zone Managers) may have been assigned all of the Sales Bank cars that needed to be placed in service in order to comply with the mandate set forth by the SCCA sanctioning rules.  Cars ordered through the Dealerships already satisfied the requirement that a vehicle be road worthy or placed into service.  The Sales Bank cars may have constituted a majority of vehicles that were not Dealer ordered and needed to be "driven" in order to fulfill the 2500 unit SCCA requirements.  

Again, this is all speculation at this point. I am going to tell Dave Stuart and Ralph what we are finding with regards to what is listed on the Broadcast Sheets and see if there is something we have missed or left out of the equation.  Stay tuned!  

[hemigeno]

[very] Dumb question here... perhaps Tom or Dave S. can answer...  If a car was going to be pushed out to the dealership as a Sales Bank vehicle, wouldn't Chrysler have just built/shipped the car and considered it the dealership's problem from that point on?  I might be way off on my understanding of what the term "Sales Bank" actually means, and I'm still not clear on what hoop Chrysler was trying to jump through from a homologation standpoint (i.e. was assembly/production the goal, or delivery to the dealerships?).

[pettybird]

That's consistent with the wing cars, too...a few orders tossed into the sea of sales bank cars.  


Where would those sales bank cars have actually been "parked?"  Where was the physical location of the lot?  Were they kept regionally or near to the plant?  When I worked at Chevy in 96-98 a lot of them came from the Toledo area.

[pettybird]

[very] Dumb question here... perhaps Tom or Dave S. can answer...  If a car was going to be pushed out to the dealership as a Sales Bank vehicle, wouldn't Chrysler have just built/shipped the car and considered it the dealership's problem from that point on?  I might be way off on my understanding of what the term "Sales Bank" actually means, and I'm still not clear on what hoop Chrysler was trying to jump through from a homologation standpoint (i.e. was assembly/production the goal, or delivery to the dealerships?).

When we had a customer that wanted a Blazer, for instance, we asked what they wanted for options.  We could then get into GM's inventory and find one that was dead on or close.  GM would build a pile of cars in between orders in "standard" ordering configurations.  That way, if you ran through a bunch of Cavaliers in a week, you could replenish inventory faster than if the cars needed to be built on the spot.  GM could shut the plant down (or kill a shift) if they had too many.  You'll see (especially during strike times or with a new hot car) that referred to as "x days supply" on the ground.

What you're suggesting is how a lot of smaller volume manufacturers like Porsche and Ferrari work.  Instead of a bank of unsold cars, you get an allocation.  Some you get to choose, and some come how they come...

[pettybird]

I don't know much about Chrysler and the muscle car era.  I don't even really know much about the cool stuff Chevy sold--in my two years we had two corvettes and three Z28's.  It was a VERY boring dealer 

[richRTSE]

Cars ordered through the Dealerships already satisfied the requirement that a vehicle be road worthy or placed into service.  The Sales Bank cars may have constituted a majority of vehicles that were not Dealer ordered and needed to be "driven" in order to fulfill the 2500 unit SCCA requirements.

just to see if I am following hemigeno's line of reasoning, would a more "correct" phrasing of the above be:

 "...that were not Dealer ordered and needed to be "driven" in order to be discounted to the dealerships to fulfill the 2500 unit SCCA requirements."

[ECS]

That's consistent with the wing cars, too...a few orders tossed into the sea of sales bank cars.  


Where would those sales bank cars have actually been "parked?"  Where was the physical location of the lot?  Were they kept regionally or near to the plant?  When I worked at Chevy in 96-98 a lot of them came from the Toledo area.

Thanks for your comments Pettybird.   I want comment to both Gene and yourself at the same time.  As I am typing this, Tom and Dave are on the phone discussing the questions you have asked.  They are going to register and come on here to discuss these points.  I don't have the wherewithal to even try and explain the in and outs of what these guys do (and did) for Chrysler during their career.  Just as soon as they make it through the sign in process, they will explain the behind the scenes things that many of us are not privy to hearing.

[mauve66]

this is about as spirited as 1st geners "discussing" the color of the front grill medallion, by the way, i've proven that gold AND red were available depending on the current supplier and box of parts it was picked form, and no i have no documentation on it

[nvrbdn]

 

[held1823]

this first paragraph is a repost from a reply i made yesterday. it is from a dealership sales manager, who was there at the time.

We only sold two AAR's; one yellow (Lemon Twist) and the other Autumn Bronze. I don't remember anything about having to put miles on anything before delivery. However, I think some of the AAR's (and T/A's) remained unsold in Zone inventory and were put into Company Car service. They would've had to been driven a couple of hundred miles before being offered to dealers at a discount. Cars like this weren't really desireable "drivers", so the minimum number of miles would be put on them. Although desireable today, back then cars like this and the Super Birds were hard to sell. A standard 340 Cuda probably had a waiting list in 1970, while the zones had to force the limited units on the dealers.

this is totally in line with my experience as a parts manager at a small jeep/eagle dealership many years ago. this dealership could sell every cherokee limited they could get their hands on, but lower level cherokees were much tougher to move. the chrysler zone manager would make the dealership take one lower level cherokee from the sales bank, for every cherokee limited the dealership received. these sales bank cherokees were brand new, with no mileage. on a few occasions, the dealership was offered a cherokee limited from the zone's company car inventory. these vehicles did have varying mileage, and came with paperwork such as was recently brought to light.

when the eagle talon was released, the chrysler zone manager placed the same requirement on those cars. the dealership i worked for  HAD to take either an eagle premier or eagle summit, for each eagle talon they were allowed to order. one of these eagle premier's arrived without air conditioning, and sat on the lot for over two years. the zone manager told my boss, "tough chit, it is YOUR car to sell, not ours".

i left this jeep dealership for a parts manager position at a dodge/chrysler/plymouth dealership, in a different chrysler sales zone. the same scenario occurred here, only in reverse. for a short period of time,  the dealership had to take a sales bank chrysler town and country limited that they didn't want, to be able to order a lower priced (and much easier to sell) dodge caravan.

while at the c/p/d dealership, i drove a demo as part of my compensation package. i don't recall exactly how many cars (25 or so) this ended up being, but i would drive one until it was either sold, or reached the allowable mileage limit and was put back on the lot. the dealership had to enter an "in service" date on each and every demo, since the cars belonged to them and not chrysler.

[Ramsrt]

That's consistent with the wing cars, too...a few orders tossed into the sea of sales bank cars.  


Where would those sales bank cars have actually been "parked?"  Where was the physical location of the lot?  Were they kept regionally or near to the plant?  When I worked at Chevy in 96-98 a lot of them came from the Toledo area.

Thanks for your comments Pettybird.   I want comment to both Gene and yourself at the same time.  As I am typing this, Tom and Dave are on the phone discussing the questions you have asked.  They are going to register and come on here to discuss these points.  I don't have the wherewithal to even try and explain the in and outs of what these guys do (and did) for Chrysler during their career.  Just as soon as they make it through the sign in process, they will explain the behind the scenes things that many of us are not privy to hearing.

Hi Everyone.

I wanted to join in and hopefull provide some insight into this Sales Bank discussion and maybe pass on some of my personal experiences from in the day. First of all a little background on myself. Father spent 30 plus years working for the industry - most of it with Chrysler in the Sales Division offices working with dealerships. I spend 30 years with Chrysler in the "Zone Offices" for the Service Division and Sales Division.

My father was actually Ralph Wiedners boss. I remember meeting Ralph in the late 60's when we moved to St. Louis. My father was in the sales division for Chrysler during his whole career in various jobs and cities around the US. In St.Louis he was the #2 guy but ended up running the office when his boss was out on medical leave.  We were originally from Atlanta and from time to time I would ride with my father to the office on weekends or special events. I remember seeing the turbine cars in '63 in the training center. The training instructors favorite trick was to balance a nickel on the engine while it was running to demonstrate how smooth it was. Remember that the turbine engine idles at 20,000 rpms.

We were in St. Louis from 1968 to 1971 which just happenend to be the years I went to High School. I remember that Ralph campaigned a 68 Charger (I think) at the local drag strips . Many of his trophies were at the office from time to time.  Remember back in the 60's and 70's there was a Dodge Division and a separate Chrysler Plymouth Division.  They merged in the mid 70's but prior to that it was very competitive between the divisions as well as between the big three. Racing was very much a part of the advertising theme and it was a Win on Sunday and Sell on Monday mindset.

Enough for now from memory lane.

Let's talk about Sales Bank.  Before we get too deep you have to understand the make up of a Car Company.  The manufacturer designs and manufacturers the vehicle and offers it for sale to the dealerships. Each dealership is an independent business regardless of whether it's a mega chain or the smallest rural dealer. In an ideal world the manufacturer builds a car and the dealer buys the car when it reaches the end of the line. Ideally every car going down the line was placed there by an order from the dealer. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen. If you have too many orders then you have to divide the pie up so everyone gets a fair share.  If you don't have enough orders to fill the assembly plants capacity which you projected months earlier you have two choices - #1 shut the plant down which is very costly and doesn't generate any revenue. #2 someone makes the decision that the manufacturer is going to build the vehicles on speculation and attempt to sell them to the dealer after they are built. ( Sales Bank) . Once the vehicles are built and parked at a vacant lot near their respective assembly plants the list of vehicles is divided up and sent to the zone offices to be sold.

Let's take our Trans Am vehicles as a case in point. Chrysler announces that a new model called the T/A or AAR is coming out . Some dealers who are performance minded raise their hands. But Chrysler needs to make a certain number to be eligible to compete in the class. ( in a very short time as was determined by some of the prior research. ) So the decision is made to build the appropriate number of vehicles needed to enter Trans Am which are not covered by dealer orders. Someone in Detroit sits down and starts filling out orders and the cars are built and shipped to a storage lot. Detroit sends a list of available cars to each zone office in the country ( used to be 25 offices ) . Well these cars need to be sold so the list is published and each Manager is responsible to find a home for a certain number. After many calls and deals to the dealers some quantity still remain. Detroit wants the cars gone ($$$) so the next best option is to drive the car as a company vehicle,put a few miles on it and sell it as a used vehicle to the dealer at a discounted price. ( I believe Ralph said he personally drove 12-13 Trans am cars and sold them to his assigned dealers in Southern Missouri). My father even had to drive one for a very short period of time. White / black stripes Challenger- automatic

Funny Story - He picks the car up from the dealership across the street from the Zone Office ( St. Ann Dodge ) . He and his boss head out to lunch and as they enter the freeway the conversation turns to I wonder how this new model runs. Dad obliges and WOT ensues. Unfortunately it was short lived as both exhaust tips which were a dealer prep item blew off the car at the same time and dad had to pull over to the side of the highway and walk back to recover the tips. Bosses comment - nice car Tom!  This many explain why I got to drive it one day to help put miles on it so he could get out of it. What kid in High school who enjoys cars wouldn't jump at the chance to cruise in a just introduced Challenger T/A.

As Dave said earlier we ran across many,many build sheets of Trans Am cars with the Sales Bank Code on them. If the boss had to drive one I can assure you it was a priority program from Detroit with a short time line. My father was normally a 9 passenger Monaco wagon kind of a guy with 3 kids in the family. His A-12 Superbee is another story.

Remember that cash flow is king in the automobile world. Building the 5000 cars is the easy part to go racing. You have to sell them to recoup your money as soon as possible. Sitting on the cars for an extended period of time is not a viable financial model. While we value the cars today, back in the day it was a business decision to support the racing program. Recoup your money as soon as possible was the name of the game. Anyone remember the Shelby Dakota?  I personally had to drive one of those 500 miles and roll it to the auction - They weren't a big seller back then and Chrysler had committed to a certain number and had to move them , even at a discounted price. I believe that 500 miles represented the first level of discount from Chrysler on the pricing structure for selling used company vehicles. The dealers are the manufacturers only sales outlet.

Thanks for the insight from the dealership end also

Glad to be online and pass on some of the old war stories.  

Tom

[pettybird]

Someone in Detroit sits down and starts filling out orders and the cars are built and shipped to a storage lot.

If I could go back in time, this is the job I'd want.  Of course, I would have been fired IMMEDIATELY for building the crazy cars in my head!


Thanks for the stories!

[tan top]

 
Glad to be online and pass on some of the old war stories.  

Tom

hello & welcome Tom       , thanks for sharing  your memorys & info ,  
love reading  about this kind of thing ,   would be very interested in hearing  more stuff like this   if you  have the  time ,  

[richRTSE]

So the decision is made to build the appropriate number of vehicles needed to enter Trans Am which are not covered by dealer orders. Someone in Detroit sits down and starts filling out orders and the cars are built and shipped to a storage lot. Detroit sends a list of available cars to each zone office in the country ( used to be 25 offices ) . Well these cars need to be sold so the list is published and each Manager is responsible to find a home for a certain number. After many calls and deals to the dealers some quantity still remain. Detroit wants the cars gone ($$$) so the next best option is to drive the car as a company vehicle,put a few miles on it and sell it as a used vehicle to the dealer at a discounted price. ( I believe Ralph said he personally drove 12-13 Trans am cars and sold them to his assigned dealers in Southern Missouri). My father even had to drive one for a very short period of time. White / black stripes Challenger- automatic

If the boss had to drive one I can assure you it was a priority program from Detroit with a short time line.

Thanks Tom for adding this bit of information.   This seems to clarify things... for me at least. If I'm following all this correctly it seems to me that BUILDING the cars by a certain date was required by the SCCA in order to compete and the mandated mileage thing was required if Dodge/Plymouth wanted to unload the unsold sales bank car to dealers at a discount and was not a mileage requirement set by the SCCA to compete.

[hemigeno]

Glad to be online and pass on some of the old war stories.  

Tom

Thanks for the info Tom - great stuff.

[ECS]

Thanks Tom!  This same information that has been conveyed for weeks and has suddenly become understandable.    Part of the confusion may have centered around my comment that they (meaning Chrysler) couldn't sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles in order to comply with the racing program.  Never was it said that the SCCA mandated the mileage.  The mileage was mandated by Chrysler themselves (indirectly) in order to comply with having 2500 vehicles placed in service so they could participate in the Race.  Until 2500 cars were considered sold or on the road, they could not take part in the program.  That is why various members here were asking for a document from Chrysler as proof that THEY had to put miles on those car's, along with the impossibility of driving them 500 miles over a short period of time.  I'm just glad you have overcome your memory problems and have been able to correctly recall things and fill in those "gaps".  Remember this earlier quote?:

"i've spent a lifetime around chrysler employees who were there at the time. we can ask ten of them individually about a specific topic, and get ten different viewpoints. gather those same ten people in a room together, and suddenly their stories start to mesh. they aren't recalling things; they are filling in the gaps of their own memories. does their sudden consensus make the new story true, although 99+ percent of it never occurred?"

(Sorry Tom but after weeks of sarcastic, rude and attacking comments...............what did I tell you would happen?  Reply #114)  

[Budnicks]

ramsrt or Tom welcome to the Dodge Charger Forum    it's nice to have you here & thank you for sharing your knowledge....... Budnicks

[richRTSE]

Definately some good stuff here. Makes you wonder how much more previously unknown information is out there ...  

Never was it said that the SCCA mandated the mileage.  The mileage was mandated by Chrysler themselves (indirectly) in order to comply with having 2500 vehicles placed in service so they could participate in the Race.  Until 2500 cars were considered sold or on the road, they could not take part in the program.

Dave, I'm not trying to start another huge debate about this, as I think now it has been established that a large chunk of these cars were driven before being sold, but I didn't get this same conclusion as to WHY the miles were put on them....  ....the conclusion I reached was the miles were put on the cars so they could be sold at a discount to the dealers, and not in order to race. (Sam Posey was racing one in April 1970, and the verification of production didn't happen until May 1970) .....?? Am I missing something or are you drawing your own conclusion from all this??

Rich

[ECS]

Definately some good stuff here. Makes you wonder how much more previously unknown information is out there ...  

Never was it said that the SCCA mandated the mileage.  The mileage was mandated by Chrysler themselves (indirectly) in order to comply with having 2500 vehicles placed in service so they could participate in the Race.  Until 2500 cars were considered sold or on the road, they could not take part in the program.

Dave, I'm not trying to start another huge debate about this, as I think now it has been established that a large chunk of these cars were driven before being sold, but I didn't get this same conclusion as to WHY the miles were put on them....  ....the conclusion I reached was the miles were put on the cars so they could be sold at a discount to the dealers, and not in order to race. (Sam Posey was racing one in April 1970, and the verification of production didn't happen until May 1970) .....?? Am I missing something or are you drawing your own conclusion from all this??

Rich

Hi Rich,
The debate was never an issue with me.  I got upset when a few around here were calling my Chrysler Friends liars, senile and disrespecting their input.  I really appreciate when there is back and forth dialog that helps us navigate towards the truth. 

If you look at the last couple of lines in Tom's response, he stated that "500 miles represented the first level of discount from Chrysler on the pricing structure for selling used company vehicles."  It really gets into semantics regarding why the miles were put on them.  If they did not place them in a "Sales Bank" scenario they would have been sitting on lots unsold.  2500 vehicles had to be built to comply with the SCCA sanctioning rules.  Chrysler wanted them to "find homes" as quickly as possible.  This was the way Chrysler was able to meet that objective in a very quick manner.  They wanted them gone as soon as they were built. They were built to comply with the SCCA rules.  Sales Banking them was the "loop hole" that was used to meet the SCCA criteria AND quickly sell approximately $20,000,000 of "forced" Inventory.  I talked to Dave Stuart earlier today (he is going crazy with end of the month for Chrysler) and he is going to try and come here in the next day or so to shed addition light on the subject matter.   

[held1823]

Thanks Tom!  This same information that has been conveyed for weeks and has suddenly become understandable.    Part of the confusion may have centered around my comment that they (meaning Chrysler) couldn't sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles in order to comply with the racing program.  Never was it said that the SCCA mandated the mileage.  The mileage was mandated by Chrysler themselves (indirectly) in order to comply with having 2500 vehicles placed in service so they could participate in the Race.  Until 2500 cars were considered sold or on the road, they could not take part in the program.  That is why various members here were asking for a document from Chrysler as proof that THEY had to put miles on those car's, along with the impossibility of driving them 500 miles over a short period of time.  I'm just glad you have overcome your memory problems and have been able to correctly recall things and fill in those "gaps".  Remember this earlier quote?:

"i've spent a lifetime around chrysler employees who were there at the time. we can ask ten of them individually about a specific topic, and get ten different viewpoints. gather those same ten people in a room together, and suddenly their stories start to mesh. they aren't recalling things; they are filling in the gaps of their own memories. does their sudden consensus make the new story true, although 99+ percent of it never occurred?"

(Sorry Tom but after weeks of sarcastic, rude and attacking comments...............what did I tell you would happen?  Reply #114)

since you still choose to play this game, let's place that quote in the proper context. read it for what it says- it does not say that 99% of the stories told never occurred, but rather the overwhelming majority of some new stories never happened. the quote is also referring to MY friends and coworkers; they are surely dumber than yours.

a "new story" scenario referred to here concerns mandated mileage in order to go SCCA racing, which started with a comment from YOU.

Another story that was interesting (which I wasn't unaware of) is that ALL T/A Challengers and AAR Cudas were driven approximately 500 miles before they were placed on the Dealer's Lot and offered for sale to the public.  He stated that they were all basically "used cars" by the time the original owners titled them!  Mr. Wiedner was personally responsible for the sales (and driving quotas) of 13 vehicles of those types. Dave Stuart thinks that mandate was specific to only the first shipments but Ralph believed it was for the entire production throughout the Country.  Apparently, they could not sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles to comply with the racing program.  There are no conspiracies to any of this, just the truth and the truth has no agenda!

the "mandated" mileage story IS starting to mesh, with input from a variety of different sources NOT all sitting in the same room. and guess what? it is shown to have not occurred, yet somehow you were the ONLY one in this discussion who did not "realize" the debate was over the mileage requirement being a racing program rule. (this, even though it was YOU who said it in the first place.) you have now chosen to backtrack and post

Never was it said that the SCCA mandated the mileage..

that is technically true, since SCCA was not mentioned by name in this earlier comment

Apparently, they could not sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles to comply with the racing program

Once the absurd (and later proven to be incorrect) mandatory mileage scenario was called into question, the dave walden buttons were quickly pushed. google your name, and you will find dozens of threads with the exact same outcome. it is not possible for someone to disagree with you, without you putting on your wordsmith cape, seeking to put us "uneducated" and "never worked for the company" types in our place. Guess what, some of us HAVE worked there. have YOU? Some of us even worked at the dealership AND corporate level.

rather than stay the course, you attempt to set sail for whatever path makes you both (A) appear to have been correct from the start, and (B) the victim of "sarcasm, rudeness, and attacks". your ego STILL forces you to think the discussion is about you, and not the mandated mileage comment. what makes this hilarious is, even now, you do not understand that you are (gasp!) wrong. you just typed this...

The mileage was mandated by Chrysler themselves (indirectly) in order to comply with having 2500 vehicles placed in service so they could participate in the Race.  Until 2500 cars were considered sold or on the road, they could not take part in the program.

that statement is 100% incorrect, mr. walden, but fear not, you can claim to have been misinterpreted yet again.

You have the skill and dedication to be a great asset to the hobby. it's a shame those qualities are often times overshadowed. I'm certain others are tired of the bickering, so i will make this my final response to you. Otherwise, the stupidity might never end, as you WILL have the last word. (yet another dave walden trait, from the looks of google)

[Ghoste]

But the important thing is that we have now gotten to the crux of the debate and sorted it out.  Thank you to all.

[thedodgeboys]

  and lots of   Needed for this thred.

But in the end thanks...

[ECS]

Some of us even worked at the dealership AND corporate level............ yet another dave walden trait, from the looks of google

Wow!  Google searches?!  Someone is certainly enamored with who I am and what I do.  With the experience you have divulged here and your diligent searches to acquire my personal information, I might actually entertain the thought of hiring you!  

[69CoronetRT]

But the important thing is that we have now gotten to the crux of the debate and sorted it out.  Thank you to all.

The real story is certainly more plausible.

[ECS]

The real story is certainly more plausible.

Yeah Tom!  Thanks for clearing things up.  How about a short commercial to accurately express the sentiments being expressed here!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6PgJ3TX6AQ&feature=plcp