Challenger T/A and 'Cuda AAR mandatory mileage

[ECS]

*Moderator's note*

I carved out the Trans Am car discussion from another thread on the aero board, and combined it with Ghoste's parallel thread on here.  My apologies for not having created a single repository for this before now.  If the "conversations" become difficult to follow at the point the two separate threads merged, it's my fault and not the fault of the respective reply's author.

Another story that was interesting (which I wasn't unaware of) is that ALL T/A Challengers and AAR Cudas were driven approximately 500 miles before they were placed on the Dealer's Lot and offered for sale to the public.  He stated that they were all basically "used cars" by the time the original owners titled them!  Mr. Wiedner was personally responsible for the sales (and driving quotas) of 13 vehicles of those types.  Dave Stuart thinks that mandate was specific to only the first shipments but Ralph believed it was for the entire production throughout the Country.  Apparently, they could not sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles to comply with the racing program.  There are no conspiracies to any of this, just the truth and the truth has no agenda!  

Hey Dave,


Interesting?...If Ralph believed it was for the "entire" production of Trans Am cars, how does that explain Barry Washington's "documented" video of a 173 original mile T/A

Mike

Hi Mike,
I will have to ask him that question.  I have never researched or have any formal knowledge about the build specifics on those type cars.  Barry probably knows more about that particular line of vehicle than anyone else.  He may even have additional documentation for cars that have under 500 miles.  Dave Stuart was almost positive that the miles were only on for the initial inventory of each Dealership.  I certainly have no opinion either way.  

Tom Barcroft and I had a brief 3 way phone conference with Ralph (yesterday) to confirm Lunch on Thursday.  Again, there is an open invitation for anyone who wants to join us.  Now if more than 20 people show up, we just might have to go to White Castle or some other fine eating establishment.........  If you would like Ralph's phone number Mike, send me a PM and I will give it to you.  He said it was OK to give it to anyone who has questions about the "Glory Days" of Chrysler.

Happy 4TH of July to everyone and have a Safe Holiday!!  

[pettybird]

Another story that was interesting (which I wasn't unaware of) is that ALL T/A Challengers and AAR Cudas were driven approximately 500 miles before they were placed on the Dealer's Lot and offered for sale to the public.  He stated that they were all basically "used cars" by the time the original owners titled them!  Mr. Wiedner was personally responsible for the sales (and driving quotas) of 13 vehicles of those types.  Dave Stuart thinks that mandate was specific to only the first shipments but Ralph believed it was for the entire production throughout the Country.  Apparently, they could not sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles to comply with the racing program.  There are no conspiracies to any of this, just the truth and the truth has no agenda!  

Please prove me wrong but this has to be one of the dumbest stories I've ever read.  By that rationale, wouldn't EVERY SCCA homologation vehicle have to comply to this?  Every Z/28, every Boss 302, every little British or Italian special, etc?  What automaker would agree to that, and how would GM or Ford have forced their entire dealer network (or factory structures) to comply?

[ECS]

Another story that was interesting (which I wasn't unaware of) is that ALL T/A Challengers and AAR Cudas were driven approximately 500 miles before they were placed on the Dealer's Lot and offered for sale to the public.  He stated that they were all basically "used cars" by the time the original owners titled them!  Mr. Wiedner was personally responsible for the sales (and driving quotas) of 13 vehicles of those types.  Dave Stuart thinks that mandate was specific to only the first shipments but Ralph believed it was for the entire production throughout the Country.  Apparently, they could not sell them until they had accumulated a certain amount of miles to comply with the racing program.  There are no conspiracies to any of this, just the truth and the truth has no agenda!  

Please prove me wrong but this has to be one of the dumbest stories I've ever read.  By that rationale, wouldn't EVERY SCCA homologation vehicle have to comply to this?  Every Z/28, every Boss 302, every little British or Italian special, etc?  What automaker would agree to that, and how would GM or Ford have forced their entire dealer network (or factory structures) to comply?

Again, I have no opinion about this scenario because I didn't work for Chrysler in 1969.  I met Ralph for the first time at the 2012 Monster Mopar Show.  I was not looking to start an argument with a 71 year old Man I just met, who claimed he spent his entire career with Chrysler.  He was District Zone manager and said their Corporate office was directly across the street from the St. Ann Dealership in St. Ann, MO.  I assumed he knew more about his job with Chrysler and how they handled their affairs than I did.  There was no reason to believe he was conning the small group of people he was talking to.  (I just happened to be part of the group)  Another unique story centered around the car he had at the Show.  He owns a 1971 Convertible Challenger that was given to MISS ILLINOIS as a publicity vehicle in 1971.  She drove the car for a year, returned it to Chrysler and then he bought it.  He has owned it every since and still had the paperwork and window sticker that confirmed that information.  Until this upcoming Thursday afternoon, that is all I can tell you!  I will however ask the purpose surrounding the "dumb story" he told us a few of weeks ago!

[ECS]

Please prove me wrong......

As some of you know, I have the honor of Tom Barcroft working with me at ECS.  His entire Family (Father, Brothers) worked for Chrysler.  Tom retired from Chrysler a few years ago as a District Zone Manager after 30 years of service.  His Brother is currently the Director of Operations for Chrysler in South Africa.  He has read the comments in this thread and sent me this email.  I thought I would share it with everyone.  One thing to point out is that Tom was 18 years old in 1970 and actually drove a white T/A that his Father let him use from the Dealership he worked for.  Enjoy!


Dave,

I did a quick search of some of the sites relating to T/A's and AAR's.  Below is an excerpt from one site. In the late 60's Trans Am was a hotly contested and highly visible series that was dominated by Ford and GM. Chrysler and AMC wanted a piece of the action and the following modifications were made to the rules. Note the limited time frame and the note that Dodge and Plymouth were still producing cars the first weekend of racing. Building the cars is one thing but then you have to sell or dispose of the cars. Sales banks ( cars built without dealer orders and stored was  common place back in the day. Dave Stuart probably has many many stories on the subject ). All manufacturers were keen on the old story of "Win on Sunday- Sell on Monday". Hemi Darts, Daytona's and Superbirds, T/A Challengers & AAR Cuda's, 69 Firebird T/A's, Boss 302 Mustangs, etc. Completely different outlook than today's industry.

The white T/A Challenger my father drove (and I had the opportunity to drive as an 18 year old)  was a 500 mile sales bank car. My father normally drove 9 passenger Monaco wagons when he had a choice. Most corporate people didn't choose to drive the high performance specialty cars because of no air conditioning. Most didn't want to make business calls and show up all sweaty in a suit.

I'll send Ralph a note and see if he has any additional info. Seems everyone just wants to argue on the sites !

Here is a cut and paste from a AAR website that seemed pertinent.

Looks like production numbers are as follows.
T/A's - 2543
AAR's- 2724 ( 2727 on one site)

Production range looks like 3-10 to 4-17, 1970  per the various sites,but appear to have been batch built vs consistent through all the dates.
So in about a month Chrysler had over 5000 vehicles sitting on the ground. Highly unlikely they had dealer orders for all the cars.


SCCA General Competition Rules


The Trans-American Championship is an annual series of events for Sedan Category automobiles to determine a manufacturer champion in over-2-liter and in under-2-liter cars. The events were held under the SCCA General Competition Rules. In August 1969 the rules for 1970 were revised, presumably to the satisfaction of various interested Detroit parties. At the meeting the production levels necessary to meet homologation requirements were agreed upon. The deadline was set as 10 days prior to the first race of the season. For any model to be eligible, the quantity actually built had to equal 1/250th of the total 1969 production for that company, with a minimum of 2500. Note: Prior rules required 5000 unit min.
Minimum Production required

Company    Production for 1970 (until April 9, 1970)
Chevrolet Camaro    8200
Ford Mustang    7000
Dodge Challenger    2800
AMC Javelin    2500
Plymouth AAR 'Cuda    2500
Deadline was extended


To complicate matters, the Camaro wasn't even introduced until after the first of the year, and other companies were also lagging badly. Plymouth and Dodge officially started their production March 10, 1970 and were still producing during the first race weekend. John Timanus was the technical administrator of the SCCA who had to verify such production.

Note: According to the race schedule for 1970 the first event was 4-19-70 so Chrysler was definitely behind schedule and had to produce the cars to be able to compete .

Tom

[pettybird]

OK, so some cars were dealer and rep demos...there was a yellow 'bird in Columbus that was a zone rep car. 

taking the round numbers from the previous post, the manufacturers would have had to log eleven million, five hundred thousand miles prior to delivery.  That's to the moon and back.  24 Times. 

Even the assholes/retards at the FIA didn't make its teams do that.  To make the logical leap from a white car driven by a former employee logging 500 miles to the ENTIRE production run doing so requires a lot more faith than I have to offer.

[ECS]

OK, so some cars were dealer and rep demos...there was a yellow 'bird in Columbus that was a zone rep car. 

taking the round numbers from the previous post, the manufacturers would have had to log eleven million, five hundred thousand miles prior to delivery.  That's to the moon and back.  24 Times. 

Even the assholes/retards at the FIA didn't make its teams do that.  To make the logical leap from a white car driven by a former employee logging 500 miles to the ENTIRE production run doing so requires a lot more faith than I have to offer.

You are absolutely right!  These lying Executives who worked for Chrysler all of their lives certainly don't know as much as those who base their opinions on nothing more than personal speculation!  Just curious........how long have you worked for the FIA?

[Ghoste]

OK, so some cars were dealer and rep demos...there was a yellow 'bird in Columbus that was a zone rep car. 

taking the round numbers from the previous post, the manufacturers would have had to log eleven million, five hundred thousand miles prior to delivery.  That's to the moon and back.  24 Times. 

Even the assholes/retards at the FIA didn't make its teams do that.  To make the logical leap from a white car driven by a former employee logging 500 miles to the ENTIRE production run doing so requires a lot more faith than I have to offer.

You are absolutely right!  These lying Executives who worked for Chrysler all of their lives certainly don't know as much as those who base their opinions on nothing more than personal speculation!  Just curious........how long have you worked for the FIA?

Ouch!  All he did was express skepticism.  Surely you can see that to bring information like this to light forty years after the fact with the only evidence being the recollection of a single individual might make it difficult for some to believe.  I'm not taking a side on the 500 mile thing or the honor of the Chrysler executive but commenting more on the FIA thing really.

[GOTWING]

 

[ECS]

Ouch!  All he did was express skepticism.  

My response was completely misunderstood!  I am simply concurring that "pettybird" knows more about what was going on at Chrysler in 1969 than those misguided Executives.  I also thought he must have worked for the FID in order to so kindly and respectfully characterize the OTHER people who work there! Some people are simply blessed with tremendous knowledge about diversified areas of interest.  

[nvrbdn]

yep, my brother is a big shot working for a major company and knows how to use the english language so well that he can call people names and slam them with words that leave them scratching their heads. just cuz he can talk sophisticated, doesnt mean hes not being a jerk. ok back on subject now. just wanted to mention my brother here.

[pettybird]

Ouch!  All he did was express skepticism.  

My response was completely misunderstood!  I am simply concurring that "pettybird" knows more about what was going on at Chrysler in 1969 than those misguided Executives.  I also thought he must have worked for the FID in order to so kindly and respectfully characterize the OTHER people who work there! Some people are simply blessed with tremendous knowledge about diversified areas of interest.  

Honestly, by reputation, I thought better of you than this. 

Please explain how your story (which I believe 100%) translates to ALL SCCA homologation specials released for sale.  Please document with internal memos from any of the four car companies that participated and/or SCCA guidelines for 1970 stating that all cars must have miles on them at the time of sale to be considered valid towards their respective counts.  Surely a man of your standing and connections can do something that simple, no?

You threw out a whale tale:  I'm simply asking for more clarification beyond the solitary experience of one very lucky guy who got to drive around in a T/A on Chrysler's dime. 

[ECS]

Honestly, by reputation, I thought better of you than this.  

When you say my story was the "dumbest" thing you have read, that was rude.  You then follow up talking about A**holes and retards in parallel to my rationale.  I find it odd that you and those who came to your defense ignored your initial, rude & instigating remarks.  (Selective hypocritical, recognition I presume.)  If you want to have a cordial conversation about this subject matter then treat others the way you wish to be treated.  

Ralph is on his way over as I type this and I will get as much tangible information as possible.  All I can do is post what he says (or provides) about his experiences with Chrysler.  This was never intended to be a platform for arguing and receiving rhetoric rude responses.  As I have said from the beginning, I have no opinion either way.    Even with my "standings and connections" there is always more to learn.  Please feel free to post the documentation supporting your views.  It is always reassuring to know that those who make requests from others are willing to do the same themselves.    

[pettybird]

Honestly, by reputation, I thought better of you than this.  

When you say my story was the "dumbest" thing you have read, that was rude.  You then follow up talking about A**holes and retards in parallel to my rationale.  I find it odd that you and those who came to your defense ignored your initial, rude & instigating remarks.  (Selective hypocritical, recognition I presume.)  If you want to have a cordial conversation about this subject matter then treat others the way you wish to be treated.  

Ralph is on his way over as I type this and I will get as much tangible information as possible.  All I can do is post what he says (or provides) about his experiences with Chrysler.  This was never intended to be a platform for arguing and receiving rhetoric rude responses.  As I have said from the beginning, I have no opinion either way.    Even with my "standings and connections" there is always more to learn.  Please feel free to post the documentation supporting your views.  It is always reassuring to know that those who make requests from others are willing to do the same themselves.

Oh, please.



Forget the stupid FIA comment.  You're taking it out of context and attempting to use it as a shield because you know you took a position that can't be defended.  The parallel was between two ruling bodies and not you or your friends.  The people on this board are smart enough to figure that out.  

Back to the subject at hand.  You threw out that EVERY T/A and AAR had 500 miles on it when delivered.  You claim that it is true:  "There are no conspiracies to any of this, just the truth and the truth has no agenda!"  

I don't have to prove to you that I'm right--I'm not the one claiming an impossible statement to be factual.  By that rationale, I know of a 'bird that is coded Vitamin C that was painted Corporation Blue before it sold.  Using your logic, that means that EVERY Superbird was repainted a different color by the dealer prior to delivery.  Then, when you laugh at that (because it's both dumb AND wrong) I'll tell you to provide documentation to the contrary for every car.  

When I worked at a Chevy dealership in the mid 90's, demo cars were simply taken off the lot.  GM didn't dictate what got driven and what didn't--the dealers owned the cars, after all.  Not even cars which were at the auto show HAD to be driven.  The only difference between a demo and an undriven car was if the car happened to go over 1000 miles:  The warranty was reduced mile-for-mile after that point.  

I'll give you a big out here--PERHAPS Chrysler wanted their new cars to be seen on the streets, so they told the first dealers who received them to drive them around.  Carrying that supposition over to the entire production run is still yours to prove.

[pettybird]

.....took a position that can't be defended........I don't have to prove to you that I'm right....

Anyone involved in a debate should be responsible to "prove" whatever point they express.  How it starts is totally irrelevant!  I was able to speak on the phone today with Bernard Klein who was also a Zone Manager for Chrysler during the same era.  He too confirmed the T/A & AAR "story" about having to drive them before they were sold.  (He is mentioned in the video link below)  Four DOM's for Chrysler - Ralph Wiedner, Tom Barcroft, Dave Stuart and Bernard Klein ALL stating the same erroneous information.  Quite honestly Doug, you seem to be the type of guy who would argue with Barry Bonds about how to hit home runs!  

Since many of you couldn't join the discussion today, I thought I would bring the discussion to everyone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c

 

Suggesting that anyone has to "prove" their point is ridiculous if the other person makes an astonishing claim.  Example:  You kidnapped the Lindburgh baby.  Prove yourself innocent.   As for Barry Bonds, if he told me he hit home runs by watching the X-Files before every game so that the space aliens could help the ball fly further, I'd nod, smile, and back away.


As for your video:

Interesting guy, and one I'd be glad to meet.  Cool ring.


Nowhere does it state in any SCCA rulebook that cars must be delivered and driven to qualify--just built.  Here is the first page of the approval paperwork from the SCCA on the T/A registry site:  http://www.challengertaregistry.com/photos/scca/1.jpg 

Following your friend, that means that not only were those cars certified built, they had traveled a combined 1,250,00 miles, give or take a couple hundred thousand, between the start of production on February 2 (which is way early--that's the build date of the purple pilot car) and May 8, 1970 (the date of approval.)  Besides, if they showed up on MSO, regardless of miles, they were still NEW CARS!

How many miles a day did he drive?  Since he seemed to look down upon other reps that "cheated," he would have logged at LEAST 65,000 miles in T/A's.  That's 13 cars times "at least" 500 miles.  If he drove them to the higher end of his estimate, he'd be wheeling around for nearly 130,000 miles.  That's 20 to 40 trips from California to New York and back.  Doing more math, that's about 25 different T/A's being driven 500-1000 miles EACH DAY for three months straight.  Assuming about 50 zone reps, that's four hours behind the wheel for every rep, every day, 7 days a week, until they were approved.

And, when he was done with them, Chrysler NEVER got near MSRP for ANY T/A? 


You can "har har har" all you want.  I'll side with logic on this one.  I'm not calling him a liar, but 1970 was a LONG time ago. 


PS I like Miss Illinois 1970





Better than MI 1971...

[ECS]

How many miles a day did he drive?......

Wow!  From mocking the scenario to asking questions about something that supposedly never happened!?!  Ralph conveyed his thoughts, left my office hours ago and the video is what it is.  I can't change it.  You'll have to argue with someone else about this one.  Don't shoot the messenger.  As I have clearly stated from the beginning, I never had an opinion either way.  I will however believe his real World Chrysler Corporate Experience over your "logic" on this one.      

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c

[odcics2]

Simple to solve this mystery: let's see original factory documentation that states all the cars had to be driven 500 miles.

And I'm talking the type of documentation that appears on aerowarriors.com.   Original, factory typed memos that went to various execs.

   

[Ghoste]

I wasn't forming an opinion on this one either but I've decided that for now I'm going on the side of logic as well.  I am open minded to some other evidence and I am willing to grant saintly honesty on the retired Chrysler employee but I end up with more questions than answers.  Why after so many years and so many cars does a single ex Chrysler employee recall this bizarre mandate and yet it appears no where else?  Ever?  In all that time?  Did it only apply to Chrysler, do the other 3 participating Trans Am automakers have anyone or any documentation indicating they had to do this?  Were they aware of Chrysler having to do it?  With the build coming so close to the homologation deadline how could they have possibly undertaken this- and kept it a secret for all of these years?  If all of these cars were supposed to be delivered with 500 miles on them, why didn't the public start screaming about warranty?  It sure as hell happened later on when it was learned that there were some "issues" with Chrysler odometers pror to delivery.  If the TA Mopars had to gather 500 miles on the clock before delviery, why ship them by rail and truck, (after the 500 of course) why not get a bunch of Kowalski's to do it (yes I know hes a fictional character, the question is why not drive them to dealers to make it easier to get the 500)? 
SCCA very much WANTED the oem participation in 1970 thats why the relaxed the cid rule so why on earth would they tack such a ridiculous add on to the rules?  It just doens't make any sense.
I AM NOT SHOOTING THE MESSENGER OR DOUBTING THE FORMER EMPLOYEE!!!  I am asking wh

[GOTWING]

 

[ECS]

Why after so many years and so many cars does a single ex Chrysler employee recall this bizarre mandate and yet it appears no where else?  Ever?  In all that time?  Did it only apply to Chrysler, do the other 3 participating Trans Am automakers have anyone or any documentation indicating they had to do this?

If you read what has been stated thus far and listened to the video, these areas were already addressed.  I personally have talked with 4 Chrysler Executives all saying the same thing.  

From an earlier post: Four DOM's for Chrysler - Ralph Wiedner, Tom Barcroft, Dave Stuart and Bernard Klein ALL stating the same information.
Here is the video (again) if you missed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c  

Ralph explains in the video that Chrysler was late in the Game and still manufacturing these cars the week before the race circuit was to take place.  The other manufacturers had already complied with race sanctioning mandates.  

[nvrbdn]

it sure would be nice to have a few people that were buying these cars back then attest to the fact that they purchased one of these vehicles off the showroom floor and they did or didnt have the 500 miles displayed on the odometer.  some of those people have to exist somewhere.

[ECS]

They were pulling the wings, and the nose pieces off and putting stock grilles, and bumpers back on to try and move 'em...

Thanks for getting back on track with the thread.  I apologize for the detour regarding the AAR & T/A vehicles.  I only mentioned those cars in reference to some of the information I heard Ralph telling at the Show.  The original purpose of my post was specific to the white/red stripe Daytona that had been taken apart and sold as a "regular" Charger in 1969.  That information was also discussed by Ralph in the video.

[Ghoste]

Yes, the TA portion really does deserve another thread but on the other hand it may also be better if it dies  .  I defintiely don't have time to watch youtube videos during the week but perhaps this weekend I'll be able to find time. 

[pettybird]

How many miles a day did he drive?......

Wow!  From mocking the scenario to asking questions about something that supposedly never happened!?!  Ralph conveyed his thoughts, left my office hours ago and the video is what it is.  I can't change it.  You'll have to argue with someone else about this one.  Don't shoot the messenger.  As I have clearly stated from the beginning, I never had an opinion either way.  I will however believe his real World Chrysler Corporate Experience over your "logic" on this one.      

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwd4aZ19H_c

You've stated that the 500 mile mandate is the TRUTH.  Now it's "don't shoot the messenger?"  I thought that "Anyone involved in a debate should be responsible to 'prove' whatever point they express."

If you would have said, "I talked to a couple of guys who said they had to put miles on some T/A's," I'd shrug my shoulders and take it as anecdotal information.  Your driving this into the ground is what's kept this alive.  Am I helping the situation?  No, but I wave the BS flag pretty hard when someone posts something so outlandish. 


Stories from old timers and former Chrysler people are cool--I love 'em.  You should know as well as I do through many conversations that sometimes the stories don't add up.  Even Barry Bonds would tell you that you can't argue with math. 

[GOTWING]

I wonder who got the limelight T/A Challenger that just sat under a wooden car port just off "the circle" in Georgetown DE. was there all through the 80's into the early 90's?? thought i would put in my  T/A off topic! 

[ECS]

If you would have said.....

I said what I said and stand by every word.  You have stated nothing but hypothetical scenarios based on whatever limited knowledge you possess.  I will say however that you have made a true believer out of me!  All of the Corporate Meetings I attend every year with Chrysler, Ford and General Motors, access/partnerships with the Intellectual Data Systems such as STAR and Chrysler Historic, the MANY licensing agreements for being a Tier 1 supplier and OE manufacturer for the BIG 3 as well as Venchur - CODA - Quantya, close Relationships with the Governing Bodies who write and mandate DOT & DMV law, personal Friendships throughout the years with Design and Automotive Experts such as Carl Cammeron, Wayne Wolfgram, Michael Seaborne, Tony Passwater, David Stuart, Tom Barcroft, being a PPAP ISO Automotive Certified Manufacturer, Alliances with every Major Insurance Company in the World, etc....... doesn't compare to the infinite wisdom and knowledge that you have expressed.  Why don't you go ahead and take it from here and teach everyone the "Truth" as you know it.  I certainly know when I've been outclassed, embarrassed and shown up!