Tony's Daytona discussion

[ECS]

I really didnt know which way to lean untill he said how he fixed the tag ,,  yikes  ..I dont know ecs nor have ever talked to him,   i have to take his side on the tag thing ,  as for the car itself ,  somebody told the magazine guy the story on the car and thats what they wrote ,  differs from the pics posted here for sure ..

Thanks for bringing the topic back on track.  I say that sincerely.  The owner of the white Daytona (Tony D.) has tried to appeal to others on this site by saying that I only disclosed pictures that facilitated "my agenda".  To the contrary, I supplied the REST of the pictures and information that he/they tried to hide.  Tony claims that I ignored the magazine coverage that actually did tell about his "rust".  Only ONE magazine made a very SMALL reference about it.  They were the last publication to write about the car.  If it wasn't for Frank Badalson emailing Cliff those rusted pictures of the car which I originally forwarded to Frank (PRIOR TO THE ARTICLE BEING WRITTEN), Cliff probably would have completely hidden the facts about the rust on the vehicle.      

Even Cliff couldn't jeopardize his reputation by writing those lies once he realized that another "heavy hitter" in the Industry knew the facts.  Guess what Cliff's mention of the "rust" was in his article after receiving those pictures?  He said there was, "some rust on the floor near the rear seat."  THAT'S IT!  That MINUSCULE mention of "rust" is what Tony is telling people that I have left out of the story to facilitate "my agenda."  All of that BODY damage and that is ALL that Cliff had to write about it!  It had to have killed his soul to have included THAT little bit about the rust because he wanted so much to tell how this was the "standout" car at the 2012 Nationals!  He even went as far as to say it received a perfect score at the MCACN event when the Management of the show CLEARLY stated that wasn't true.  I wonder who told Cliff that lie?!  (See below.)  Had anyone else's vehicle exhibited the damage that the white Daytona did, that "honest" editor would STILL be writing about the horrific rust damage.  If you recall, he also wrote how Gene's Daytona technically shouldn't have even been allowed in the OE competition (by Bloomington Gold Standards) and that John's Yellow Daytona Redline tires were incorrect.  He didn't mind "critiquing" those guys but tried to cover up the rust facts about Tony's car.  

The bottom line here folks, know who your'e dealing with when you have your cars written about.  There is a ton of behind the scenes manipulation going on and you are bound to be disappointed when falsehoods are written.  Once it's printed, you can't un-ring the bell.  Sad but true!!

   

[thehemikid]

     Wow,....that's definitely a...

[TONY]

I haven't posted in a long time but felt there was too much misinformation out there just to let go.

Ecs hadn't showed interest in wing cars on this board until coming on just to campaign negativity. He even posted that because my car had a title that the vin started with XS, that it wasn't a real Daytona, a rookie mistake.   When one of the 2 Daytona threads that he posts on doesn't have responses for a period, he or resq302 would post again just to keep it alive and then respond back and forth to one another even though they do talk daily or at least almost daily from what they recently posted that they do. I know when I was on good terms with ecs that he would occasionally ask me to post on his behalf too.

Just count all of the repetitive and redundant posts of the same pictures that ecs has posted, its easy to lose count and odd that would even be permitted. Look at all of the time and effort that he has spent posting pictures and replying with the same stuff over and over again, it makes it hard to hide your motive.

In regards to all of the "truths" posted by ecs
The "truths" that he posts, are his version, half truths, assumptions, all with an obvious agenda
to harm, harass, devalue, lessen, hound and stalk myself, my car, mike mancini, magazine editors, judges and whoever else he may have issue with at the time, which is anyone that challenges his views.

He had his "truth" about my car having been disassembled and sold as a regular charger, with no proof.

He also had his "truth" about all aar and t/a cars having to been driven 500 miles prior to delivery, and had many of his "truths" to back that up, which of course was proven untrue.

He also had his "truth" that he made 2 new build sheet copies for me,
When I showed pictures of them along with 2 old ones, his new "truth" changed to say he had made 4 or more.
Then he showed another new "truth" of how my original wasn't real because of the spacing of some wording on it. He was proved wrong on that as other examples were shown that were the same. He then came up with a new "truth" that the location of the lettering wasn't correct.
Disputing with him is like a dog chasing his tail.

Do you start to see the pattern that when his "truths" are questioned, he comes up with new "truths" to fit his needs and agenda

Funny, Paul Jacobs didn't want to have anything to do with ecs because he went through the ire of ecs a few years ago, but when ecs heard that paul was restoring johns car for last years oe, ecs felt the need to make amends with paul so he would have more on his side when he started to spew his latest hate campaign. Too bad paul fell for it because in a moment, he could be on the bad side of ecs again.

ecs feels he has his reasons, but the vast majority of them fall into his wrongful assumptions.
He accused me of saying negative things to the oe judges about his car/cars, that's untrue, I never met or spoke to any of the oe judges prior to meeting Keith at the 2012 nats.

In reference to his positive cable on the challenger. I first asked ecs about it, my point was that I felt it was a later service cable, ecs told me that he got it from frank mitchell and it was nos, after ecs and I spoke,  I was looking at the engine compartment when Rick Ehrenberg asked what I saw and I told him the same thing I had said to ecs. Rick had also asked me if something else that he pointed out may have been incorrect, and I told him no, that it was correct. The other thing that ecs is referring to is my erroneous answer when I was asked about the vc gasket on his valiant. I wrongfully answered that I didn't believe rubber valve cover gaskets were correct, I was wrong and shouldn't have answered as I had never researched a 225 engine. Ecs's cars are great/excellent top restorations.

I also supplied him with some rare parts he needed (as he supplied some of his products to me), and went to bat for him publicly when he had some judging issues. But you don't hear about any of the good stuff.

In nov of 2011 Ecs and I had a 3+ hour conversation, I apologized to him about what I had said about his vc gasket, and we had what I felt was a good and productive conversation. We had kept in regular contact and despite his issue with mike mancini, who he had said his problem wasn't with mike, but with the oe judging and mike was just "collateral damage", we were on what ecs led me to believe were good and friendly terms.  Then in June of 2012 he starting posting all of his fabricated stories and the pictures that I had taken. I can only guess that he was leading me on the whole time and just waiting for the time to get closer to the nats when he felt his wrath would do the most harm.

In regards to the mcacn judging.
I wasn't at my car when it was being judged, so it was impossible for me to have been "following the judge around" as was stated prior. I was called when the judge was almost finished to answer a question. The question the judge had was that he felt daytonas shouldn't have organisol paint on the rear body panel. I told him that it should and I asked what did he see on the other daytonas? He said he hadn't gotten to them yet. He suggested that WE look at the other daytonas there, I said ok, but warned him while looking at restored cars wont always give you the correct answer depending on how correctly the car was restored. So WE looked at other cars there and I told him why don't we look at Malcolm's car as that car is unrestored and wouldn't have been subject to a restoration. After looking at the other cars and Malcolm's he agreed that organisol was correct. I don't think any of the other owners would have acted differently. Although I was painted to look like I was following the judge around while my car was judged,  another untruth.

In regards to the mcacn score. My score also changed after it was signed off on. And it too was reduced. A 1000 point total was signed off on when the judges left my car.
Afterwards, bill braun, the head judge called for me to talk with him. He told me that because he took so much flak after a car scored 1000 points a few years ago, that he will no longer allow a car to get a 1000 point score and took a point off of my total and had it signed off on.
I never complained about that or made any issue out of it, I just did mention it to bob ashton only after it was brought up in this thread. I told the same story to the mopar action writer and he felt since the car was signed off on 1000 points then had a phantom point removed, that he would go with the 1000 point reference in the story.

In reference to the tires that ecs OFFERED to me. I DID want them when I thought they were polyglas tread, not speedway tread. Once I found out that they weren't the correct tread for a Daytona I was no longer interested. The 1 owner coronet at the nationals with the speedway tread spare is correct for a coronet as they weren't built at Hamtramck where polyglas and firestone 14" redlines were used.

In reference to the rot hole on the original drivers door to my car. That door hasn't been on the car since about 1975. Remember in all of the magazine stories on my car, it mentioned how the car was hit in the drivers door?  The door was replaced with another door by the brothers that owned it, and it doesn't/didn't have any rot. The original door was stored in the garage where the car was, and mice had a mouse house in that corner of the door that caused the rot hole. That door wasn't used, the replacement door is still on the car and I still have the original door.

contd

[TONY]

Ecs also mentioned how we were having a celebration of some sorts at the nats but that we were disappointed after the awards or judging. I have no idea what he's referring to, zero. He wasn't even at the nats this year?  Makes you wonder who is fueling the fire. I was very pleased that my car was awarded a gold. I also congratulated john and gene on their accomplishments.  I said prior to the event, my only hope was that the car would earn oe gold, it did, I'm very happy it did.

Just to make a point of how little I'm concerned with the judging, I left Sunday morning prior to the award ceremony at the mcacn event.

Before the judging sheets from the nats were released, I had mentioned to paul Jacobs that since the oe judging is so vague and very unspecific that I would consider having my car rejudged when he was running the judging since he plans to be more interactive with the owner. He replied to me that my car wouldn't really get a different point score, I said I wasn't concerned with the score as much as what the shortcomings were so if I deemed them important enough, I would correct them. The point of that is how did paul already know what score my car got and what the deductions were for?? I still don't know what the majority of the deductions were for, I'm still wondering about that.

Paul also had told me that him and gene checked out the tire dates on my car. Of course the tire dates are on the back side of the tires, perhaps that's when the pics of the undercarriage and wheels/tires of my car were taken and forwarded to ecs, since ecs wasn't at the nationals to take the pics himself. At one point I told gene that it was fine with me if he took some pics of my car. I found it odd that he placed his camera at the front of the RH valve cover and pointed towards the RF hood pin pocket area and took some pics of that area amongst other areas. I realized why when ecs posted that he felt my car had improper paint coverage in the hood bumper pocket area. So I guess ecs is being sanctioned by gene, which explains why a member is permitted to post here only for the means to start trouble.

In reference to what was posted here about mopar action writing stuff not to their liking, do you think it may have something to do with the magazine being threatened with legal action and that possibly rubbed somebody the wrong way??   John told me that his mcg story wasn't exactly what it was supposed to have been. Anyone that has had their cars in magazines know the story isn't always exact, as some embellishing and sensationalizing for the sake of a better story takes place.
In regards to the mopar action story with the reference to the rot in the rear interior floor pans, it was told to all 3 publications, but they pick and choose what they want to print, mopar actions story was really the first of the 3 magazine stories that was initiated and the mention of the floor rot was in there from the beginning, due to space limitations in the magazine and being that they are a bimonthly publication the story didn't go to print til after the mcacn show, and that's why there was mention of those results in the story.

Have at it, I wont be part of a back and forth

Thank you

[ECS]

I haven't posted in a long time but felt there was too much misinformation out there just to let go.

Why of course Tony!  Paul, Gene, John, Brian, etc.... must all be in a conspiracy against you.  All of the magazine articles posted here PROVING the opposite of your statements were all fabrications.....right?  And the restoration of your fender tag.....another truth?  Yes, that was a dandy!  As Shakespeare once said, "thou doth protest too much." 

[paul jacobs]

Tony,
I just want to make clear a few things here. You have a very nice car with some killer parts, and Mike did a fantastic restoration on it.  I'm not interested in fighting with anyone here for anything-life is wayyy to short & we may all look back someday and regret what we have posted.

BUT, please don't assume you know anything about an issue Dave and I had many years ago. Those were resolved, IN PERSON, a long time ago and we walked away as friends.  No one really knows too much about them anyway, so it's a moot point to bring them up in this discussion.  Dave did offer me tires, but ONLY after several calls to his shop buying other parts for a Daytona.  These are the same tires that somehow got brought up in the feature article on YOUR CAR!!  Mysteries abound here and I think it's BS!

Fact is, you and I have had issues also, but this is not the place to discuss them in my opinion-we discussed them last month.

I have never, ever, had a personal issue with Mike Mancini.  He has done stellar work for me and has always treated me fair.  I know he and Dave have some serious issues and I think that's too bad-nothing worse than friends becoming enemies.  Maybe someday all can be forgiven and we can move on?

I'm not at odds with you or anyone else here, but I don't like people going behind my back spreading lies/rumors etc, and if my name gets pulled into a thread I'm here to defend myself!

Bottom line is some people have flat out lied about things to put themselves in a higher place, only to have built there lies on the sand.

[resq302]

Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips!

Master B......

Since some of you have taken a liking to my rap name, here's a lil beat to break up the banter.....


(in rapping voice)

yo, yo, yo, yo!
I'm Grand Master B,
I'm here to make ya see,
that I'm all for the hobby,
here's what Im bout to lobby,
no matter what car,
neither here, nor too far,
ill care 'bout your ride,
as long as its bonafide! (TRUE!)

don't care for manipulation,
im here for verification!
cause of my occupation,
theres no deliberation!  (boy!)
you better watch out you scammers,
cause we're 'bout to drop the hammer!
Cause all ya gotta be is TRUE!
and thats why Mopars RULE! (WORD!)   


written and (badly) sung by Grand master B
aka - Brian  - Resq302

[hemi68charger]

written and (badly) sung by Grand master B
aka - Brian  - Resq302

[Dr V]

And I thought that the Blankenship/Jeff Johnson saga was interesting over the last couple of years. This definitely beats that one up.   I guess I never really knew how cut throat/competitive this hobby was becoming.   My goodness..

[Aero426]

And I thought that the Blankenship/Jeff Johnson saga was interesting over the last couple of years. This definitely beats that one up.   I guess I never really knew how cut throat/competitive this hobby was becoming.   My goodness..

When I read Paul Jacobs' very candid comments above, and who didn't get along with whom, it sounds like the stuff that goes on between junior high school girls.   Just about everyone named didn't get along with someone else at a given moment.  (I am sure this scenario is not limited to the high stakes of the Mopar restoration world.)  

What could take this thread to the next level, would perhaps be the salacious news that there was a wife swap involved somewhere along the line.  

[ECS]

These are the same tires that somehow got brought up in the feature article on YOUR CAR!!  Mysteries abound here and I think it's BS!

We know all those things just magically showed up in the articles Paul!  I had been telling Cliff Gromer for the past two years how the OE Judging had some major flaws but he just coincidently decided to bust the Judges in his Editors Notes (When the Gold Doesn't Glitter) AFTER Tony didn't take the top billing at the 2012 Nationals.  For what it's worth, I have an email from Cliff explaining to me that Tony has been one of his "go to guys" for YEARS regarding the Feature articles that he writes.  It appears that Tony gets to be his own Judge, Jury and Executioner for his cars as well as everyone else's!  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Cliff was bound to reward Tony for all of years of Friendship and dedicated service.  Of course he needed to disparage Gene, John and Your efforts in order to frame Tony's car as the "standout Daytona" at this years Nationals.  Class nothing but class....

For the record, Paul & I NEVER had issues with each other.  The "ordeal" was nothing more than a conversation we had regarding some hearsay & gossip.  I'm sure that comes as no surprise!

[Aero426]

I have an email from Cliff explaining to me that Tony has been one of his "go to guys" for YEARS regarding the Feature articles that he writes.  It appears that Tony gets to be his own Judge, Jury and Executioner for his cars as well as everyone else's!  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Cliff was bound to reward Tony for all of years of Friendship and dedicated service.  Of course he needed to disparage Gene, John and Your efforts in order to frame Tony's car as the "standout Daytona" at this years Nationals.  

You're talking about some crap a scribbler wrote in a throw away rag.   It ain't Automobile Quarterly, if you know what I mean.    Sure, it's nice to get your car in a magazine.   But six months from now, the only people who will remember the feature and the opinion piece are the proud car owner who paid for the framed copy hanging on his wall and perhaps half a dozen other people.   This is not exactly the first car to get puffed up a bit in a monthly.      The other OE Gold award Daytona owners may shake their heads in private about some things.   But I don't see them on the board here being concerned enough to make an issue of it either.     I think all the OE Gold Daytonas have had their favorable moment in the sun, publication wise.  
 
 

[ws23rt]

I am new to this site and have been jumping around trying to feel the air.
Spending quite some time reading posts about Tony's daytona I hope has given me the wrong impression.
I am left with feeling blessed that I don't have a broadcast sheet for my 69 500.
My car came to me because I saw something special at a time when few did. But I have never once in visioned
that it would become a show winner. Apparently for many it could be. And for those same- many great lengths may be taken to make it the envy of all 500s. How far is too far? Do we need lawyers? Hit men? Good grief.
I like my car. It is cool. But it is just a cool car.

[ECS]

But I don't see them on the board here being concerned enough to make an issue of it either.     I think all the OE Gold Daytonas have had their favorable moment in the sun, publication wise.

Then you haven't been paying attention and/or can't read between the lines.  I'd bet my last $ that a couple of those Daytona Guys see things in a completely different light.....guaranteed!  But then again, who are they to decide what should or shouldn't be considered their "favorable moment in the sun".   

[Aero426]

But I don't see them on the board here being concerned enough to make an issue of it either.     I think all the OE Gold Daytonas have had their favorable moment in the sun, publication wise.

Then you haven't been paying attention and/or can't read between the lines.  I'd bet my last $ that a couple of those Daytona Guys see things in a completely different light.....guaranteed!  

Dave, maybe they do.   But does it really matter?    This is car judging, not curing cancer.  

All four of the cars have received positive press and deservedly so.    They are all beautiful restorations.   Speaking for most of us little people on the outside, we are probably less concerned over which car might be considered the "bestest" by the opinion of a publication.   I don't think it keeps the car owners up at night either.      They are quite happy with what they have achieved.  

You're right, I can't read between the lines.    I could never figure it out that this thread and the Triple Gold thread are the fruits of your personal witch hunt to discredit Tony and Mancini while outing the car along the way.  I am sure there are issues going back in time that only you principals know.   These threads are the result of those grievances, whatever they are.    

You are the person crying foul the loudest, and I have to say, "Thank You" for posting the restoration injustices that have been foisted on the public.   (I know, I know, you are only coming here to defend yourself and are not the aggressor. You are only here to help inform us and have no personal agenda.)   You must feel you have good reason not to exchange Christmas cards with Tony and Mike.  We don't know ALL the details.   But at the end of the day, most of us will shrug and say, ok, fine, whatever.    I think all of us know that your work in the hobby speaks for itself and needs no affirmation.

But maybe you're right.  You can make discrediting the white car your mission until your next client wrongs you, and then move on to them.   You have such good people in place at ECS, that you can now devote even more of your time towards chasing down those BAD men who said MEAN things behind your back, and all those sloppy magazine editors too.   This hobby needs a good Sheriff to clean things up now that Joe Higgins is gone.  

Either way, while it has been great theater, this deal getting old.    But it's hard to look away.   So what other dirt do 'ya got on the white car?    

[hemikev]

    

[moparstuart]

 

[ECS]

You can make discrediting the white car your mission until your next client wrongs you, and then move on to them.

You have no idea what you are talking about.  You think THIS is the only thing I could discuss regarding being wronged by a "client"?  It's an everyday occurrence by more "big name" people in this Hobby than you could imagine.  Tony should be glad I didn't take Mike up on "listing" all the Build sheets I have ever made.  Don't think I couldn't add about 20 other things to the mix of this garbage.  Tony made one HUGE mistake with me.  While spending HOURS and HUNDREDS of dollars making custom metal tags for his Uncle's Race Heritage, he was giving me advice on how to handle the "naysayers" that were constantly attacking me on the forums.  I honestly thought he was a "friend".  Then I found out it was HIM that was criticizing me under his forum alias, while giving me advice on how to handle the "idiots".  How much more demented can you get than that?  Now his other good "friend" who was helped by my Wife in advising him to seek medical help before his Cancer killed him, is back at it using Mike's DC account to call me a "talentless prick".  (You should change your "signature" word choice if you want to remain secret SJ.  Email-Copy-Paste)  These guys are psychotic, pathological liars who will smile to your face and then try to rip your guts out if they get the chance.  They have ALL screwed with the wrong guy/people this time!

[held1823]

well stated, doug. while pathetically entertaining, both threads have blatantly, and repeatedly, ran afoul of this little blurb from page one

There's pretty much one set rule around here... no personal attacks

this thread has been used to vilify sworn enemies, accuse show venues of shady judging practices, promote restoration products, and Lord knows what else. there is no need to read between the lines; google can provide multiple examples of exactly what is going on here. the car is nothing more than a flash point for some theatrical axe grinding. the post directly above this one leaves little doubt this is not the case.

all three of the daytonas are beautiful cars, but they would be just as beautiful had they scored half as many points at the nationals. truth be told, it bums me out to see them whored out as perpetual trailer queens, rather than being a car that can be driven to the cruise-in on saturday night. hundreds of hours spent applying paint dabs and hidden overspray may appeal to a select few, but have zero impact on the majority of people who appreciate these machines. date coded tires? who gives a rat's ass? not many people, i'm guessing.

[ECS]

well stated, doug. while pathetically entertaining, both threads have blatantly, and repeatedly, ran afoul of this little blurb from page one

Please accept my sincere apology! 

[pettybird]

So, to sum up: 



FOR FUCK'S SAKE ARE WE DONE HERE?



It was time to put the lock on this stupid thread WEEKS ago, and I brought it up 11 days ago.  Time for our fearless moderator to step in and shut this shit down.

[Aero426]

Where is the thermonuclear thread killing emoticon?  

These threads have been given a berth the size of the Queen Mary in terms of what is being allowed for posted content.   The not so transparent MO has been, "lets throw a bunch of poo at the wall, and we will see what sticks."     Someone mentioned "Welcome to Moparts" the other day.   The reality is that these threads would have been locked and gone months ago.  

[rainbow4jd]

All I know is this.....

I am probably going to piss a ton of people off in the future, because I am doing the BEST RESTORATION IN THE WORLD.

I still have the original air in the tires.

I still have the original light from the headlights.

I still have the original first exhaust fumes from the first time it started, captured and stored in a peanut butter jar by one of the factory workmen.  And I have his time cards as well.

It never had rust, because it was never made of iron. 

The brakes were never applied, it only came to gravity stops. 

My build sheet is pristine white and shows that I have the rare "Twin Engine Option" - one in the front and one in the trunk.  Both are Hemis with a four barrel carburetor for EACH cylnder - yes, it has 16 carburetors.

It is painted the rare color FU2, a rare combination of green and panther pink.

My car will score a 1001 (since they don't give 1000 scores) and be featured in every magazine from Women's Wear Daily to Fly Fishing America.

----

How did I do this, you ask?

I have gone back in time, changed the coding on the build sheet, and thereafter, actually transported my car from its factory release to my present day garage.

Sincerely,

Emmett Brown.

[Aero426]

Don't think I couldn't add about 20 other things to the mix of this garbage.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc.   

Sticks and stones may break my bones...

Dave, you own among the best cars in the world.   You've won the big show.   You make great products and totally raised the quality bar.   You have earned the respect of the industry.   So many positive things.   If you are concerned about what people say, just LET YOUR WORK DO THE TALKING FOR YOU, because it stands tall.   I may not always agree with you on everything, but I say this with respect.   

[resq302]

So, to sum up: 



FOR FUCK'S SAKE ARE WE DONE HERE?



It was time to put the lock on this stupid thread WEEKS ago, and I brought it up 11 days ago.  Time for our fearless moderator to step in and shut this shit down.

Easy there buddy..... remember, its a family site!