F.A.S.T 906 head challenge

[Cooter]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

[firefighter3931]

Cooter,

Nobody in FAST is running a set of 5k 906 heads...typically they run in the 3k range and that includes all the hardware ; Stainless nailhead valves, lightwieght retainers, top shelf roller cam springs etc...

Not all of the cars in this class are "all out" builds but those at the top of the heap go the extra distance. These are not street cars by any stretch of the imagination....they are purpose built showcars that race and have to be treated as such.....you probaly won't see a FAST car out for a sunday cruise 

The trickle down applies to parts selection for those wishing to run with factory heads, factory intake/exhaust manifolds etc...The cam profiles have evolved as a result of this type of racing and that technology can be applied to more street friendly builds.  

I'm sure OldGuy's heads make excellent power.   Durability has allways been an issue with iron heads and allways will be. If he were to build a FAST car and campaign it for a season without a head failure and it performed as good as the best in the class there might be some guys interested in his product. But, there have been several head failures over the years so it's understandable that many are gun shy to lay out that amount of cash for something that has a history of failure. We're talking 45-50 yr old castings that are being pushed waaaaay beyond their original design parameters and expected to live in the harshest of envirionments. 

The BB wedge head was originally designed as a passenger car casting, not a race head. Pushing old iron to those levels will eventually lead to failure. You can only hog out so much material before the casting's structural integrity will be compromised. Couple that with a high 14-15:1 compression ratio that is trying to literally push the heads off the block and the results are inevitable. FAST racing is a niche market and the customer base is small. You can build better power for a lot less money and it will be much more reliable...but that won't fit into the class rules. It's a unique class of racing, not unlike the "stocker" class where the envelope is constantly being pushed by those at the top of the food chain.  



Ron

[heyoldguy]

It's interesting reading the various view points.

One thing I don't believe that has been pointed out is, I was asked for a price for our "best flowing" 906 heads. The best 906 heads we have approach 350 cfm. There is no CNC program for these heads, it is all hand work. Our "best heads" are all balanced in flows throughout the lift range, we don't just hack them out and whatever each port achieves from it's turn with the burrs is okay. Each head may be back on the flow bench 50, 100, maybe more times before it is finished. The valves jobs are worked in stages as we track the flows and each head may receive 5 or 6 valve jobs during the process. It takes about 120 hours for the "best heads". I have been told by a porter of high reputation there is no way he wants to spend 120 hours on a set of heads, and I am welcome to all those types of jobs. We don't have a burning desire to work on a pair of heads for 120 hours either. But if you want our best, that is what it takes. Others may be able to do 320, 330, 340 cfm in less time and I am pleased for them.

How does this trickle down? Maybe some of what we learn through all the excessive hours on the high end, sneaks into the work on the less expensive.

I spend 12-15 hours a day at the shop and personally can't afford any racing at this time in my life, F.A.S.T., bracket, nothing. So I can't spend 120 hours on a pair of heads and give them away for less than I have into them. If they aren't worth it, they aren't worth it! That is okay with me, we'll do something else and still be happy!

[cdr]

2 years ago i had about 60 hours in a set of stock twin cam harley heads & individual runner intake,got 329 cfm @.650,did i charge enough? no,will i do it again?if the price is right yes,people seem to think its no big deal porting heads,to do it right it is ALOT of work and the rewards are awesome

[mauve66]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

so for 5K you'll build anyone here a motor that is reliable and can get a "drag car" (B body-not some hacked A body) down the 1/4 mile in 9 secs, which would translate into high 10 sec for a full dress street car??

i have yet to see a motor less than 9K that will barely get you to the 11 sec bracket in a full dress street car, and by street car i don't mean something you can barely get to the track and absolutely never drive to work or cruise on sundays

[BSB67]

people seem to think its no big deal porting heads,to do it right it is ALOT of work and the rewards are awesome

Hell, I've spent a lot of time porting heads, and that was not doing it right.

Seriously, I think you're right, most don't appreciate what it takes.  First, to figure what works, and then to repeat the effort in an ugly, messy, laborious job.

The guy that I used 20 years ago ran a small shop, and a few SS car were campained out of his shop, including a BB Mopar. He probably had a dozen 906/915 castings that he worked on just for port shape development and valve grind.  He developed several different port shapes depending on the lift.   I honestly don't know how he made any money.   

[firefighter3931]

Anybody who has ported heads can appreciate all that is involved. Especially old cast iron stuff....talk about labor intensive not to mention nerve wracking ! Who hasn't hit water on a core shifted casting ? 

I remember years ago doing a bowl blend on a machine shop fresh set of 452's and everything was going well until i kissed a seat with the burr.  Back to the machine shop they went ! 

Hats Off to all the guys who undertake this type of work professionally....it really is a labor of love and not all that lucrative. 



Ron

[BSB67]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

so for 5K you'll build anyone here a motor that is reliable and can get a "drag car" (B body-not some hacked A body) down the 1/4 mile in 9 secs, which would translate into high 10 sec for a full dress street car??

i have yet to see a motor less than 9K that will barely get you to the 11 sec bracket in a full dress street car, and by street car i don't mean something you can barely get to the track and absolutely never drive to work or cruise on sundays

One of the things that is totally lost on me in this thread is: exactly what is everyone including in their discussion of the "cost".  Is it the engine?, with or without intake/exhaust?, includes drive train?, or suspension too?, does it presume that you're starting with no hp parts what so ever,  how about the safety equipment?

The engine can easily be less than half of the cost of an 11 second street car., depending on what you are starting with.

[mauve66]

i would guess 40-60% of us don't get to start with a motor we can use


5K motor is oil pan to carb, everything for the motor to work
pulleys don't matter
headers/exhaust dont matter
air cleaner don't matter
fuel ignition and air is all an engine needs, ok, oil and water but whats that cost, 25 oil, 25 antifreeze,
radiator is part of car already
suspension is part of car cost
trans is external drivetrain cost
a 5K motor is a 5K motor
stroker kit, 1995-2300.00 + shipping
eddy heads, 1495.00 + shipping
block, 400.00
machine work, 500.00+ unknown
labor, 1000.00
gaskets, 150.00??
aftermarket balancer, 150-300.00??
timing chain, $100-350.00??
cam/lifters/valvetrain, $500.00+
oil pump, i have no idea, $100??
dist/wires/plugs, $250.00+
intake, $250+  $100 swap meet part
carb $250+
fuel pump, $100
oil pan, a stock one will probably starve the motor but we'll go with it anyway $25 swap meet part
taking everything on the low end and assuming you've already got the swap meet stuff
$6990 and i bet i'm forgetting something like tax, hoses, etc
not everyone has the skills/aptitude/space/to build their own or the willingness to risk $7000 on yourself not forgetting one critical item or measurement
those of you who can do your own, don't forget your time is money and just cause you happen to have certain parts around doesn' make them free or cheaper than retail
i dispise those article, 11 sec car for 10K, oh yeah, we had this item and swapped for this item so the cost is zero, no its not

[mauve66]

i'm not knocking anyone who can do this but most can't, we need others to break ground so as it gets main stream it gets cheaper, do you think those guys in the 70-80's welding cranks for strokers got them done for what a whole stroker kit costs now days??
i have yet to find a reputable shop that can get my motor done for less than $7k, and the cheapest was a generic shop that doesn't do many mopars, and i've always been told to stay away from them do to the "mopar way of doing things"
so i'm left with $8K motor and i'm not risking my memory on puttng it together

[Cooter]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

so for 5K you'll build anyone here a motor that is reliable and can get a "drag car" (B body-not some hacked A body) down the 1/4 mile in 9 secs, which would translate into high 10 sec for a full dress street car??

i have yet to see a motor less than 9K that will barely get you to the 11 sec bracket in a full dress street car, and by street car i don't mean something you can barely get to the track and absolutely never drive to work or cruise on sundays

Maybe I shoulda put a period between where I stated "That's about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks[Insert Period here] that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part." I got news for you, you must believe that these FAST guys actually cruise a car with Iron heads ported within an inch of their lives. My point again, To RELIABLY drive a REAL street car that runs in the 9's is all but impossible. I've tried it. Sh*t breaks. I like to be able to pick up my valve.piston, etc. from the local auto parts store, not waiting on some "propreitary"/"Prototype" from somehwere out in California. MY own Dart in the high 10's is a ROYAL PITA to drive on the street, in REAL street time. I make no excuses, it is what it is. But, to say these guys actually drive 'em is a bit bold if I may say so.

Never meant I could run in the 9's for $5K, only that I could build an entire engine for $5K. Will it run in the high 10's? Sure has... Been doing it for over 13 years. (Since 1998)...Of course, it's a hacked A-body. Point is, when you start limiting yourself to appearing stock, you will spend the hell outta some Cash to run what I still consider "Pro-Stock" numbers with an otherwise "Stock" car. You gotta make a set of STOCK IRON HEADS perform like a set of Indy aluminum heads. That costs as you see here.
I was simply referring to the cost of a set of heads these FAST guys are willing to invest in to run in the 9's and APPEAR stock, where us "Lesser" folks will build an A-body(Although, I'm sure there are some B-body guys willing to try it out) that is by your standards "Hacked", but never-the-less, it still runs the numbers for way less, and doesn't have a set of $5K Aluminum RACE heads on it. There's a REASON my car looks like a "Drag type" car. Because I'm not limited to "appearing" stock.. While I don't have my rear tires that are DOT's with Redlines painted on them, or aluminum copies of factory wheels.
I did it with a junkyard stroker 440, with healthy shot of N20, and iron heads, but I'm certain it could be done on motor alone by someone with clearly more choices and $$ to spend on camshafts/heads/cranks/pistons/etc.
The engine in my own Dart right now only cost me $3500.00 to build 14 years ago, but giving inflation and what not, I'm betting the same set up would cost around $5K today.

You pointed out earlier that you can't believe these FAST guys can go that fast when the rest have "Drag" type cars barely in the 11's...Well, this was my reasoning why when I said it isn't hard to do when you can afford a set of $5K dollar heads... That are by all rights, "Voo-Doo" as you are not allowed to see what's been done and how..No trickle down there otherwise, Mr. Laroy I believe his name is, wouldn't be selling anymore $5K heads. Soon as someone figured out his "Proprietary" set up and what had to be welded up and epoxied, then everybody would be doing it like they are now in the backyard with a die grinder. Are my heads "pro" ported? Nope. Coulkdn't see spending $400.00 on a port job. Paid it once, learned how to duplicate the job, and been doing my own ever since.
Home ported by ME. Will they flow anywhere NEAR Mr. Laroy's? Nope....But they didn't cost me $5K either, and For most people's money, when you have a "Stock" appearing car running in the 9's at the local track and a "Drag "type Dart running high 10's, most will look at both and wonder how much $$ it took to run those numbers when the "Drag" car couldn't....Just like with the Imports and theior 2.0 liter engines outrunning 500 C.I. Big Block strokers...Not that hard to do if you have the huge money. Not alot of money? Build a bigger engine, put it in a lighter car, and Spray it to run the same numbers as the big dollar guys.

[mauve66]

i never said they drive them on the street, i said they appear stock and and are reliable, i don't think they tear the motor down every 5-10 runs to check the bearings and such, as nice as the cars are they would get tore up in one season, just cause mistakes happen when your taking a motor in and out or even you just take the heads and oil pan off, and then your still not seeing everything you need to in a motor that's running within an inch of its life

when i say a "hacked a-body", its not derogatory, that's just what i mean, its cut/removed/lightened so it can run that number, it better, its 1000 lbs lighter than a full dress b body which is what the top mopar guys are running,  i don't follow the series every year but the ones i remember seeing were all in b bodies with maybe 1 e body from that guy they call Mr. sixpack, but he has an a-12 car also.

a hacked b body should be able to get into the 10's easily, BSB67 has a full dress 1st gen that will do 11.68, if he gutted it, he would be in the high 10.00's but the fun part is seeing a full stock appearing, street legal APPEARING car do things they don't APPEAR to be able to do, and weren't close to being able to do when they were young, no matter what our "memories" tell us

just 'cause these guys have money i don't begrudge them that, he's got the money but not the skill/background/learning ability, buy it, i would
i don't know jack about turbos/blowers, but if i had money i sure would be buying one and learning about it, i don't think there is such a thing as too fast, after all, regardless of what the police tell us,
SPEED DOESN'T CAUSE ACCIDENTS, lack of experience, vehicle capability and driving conditions cause accidents

[Cooter]

Bottom line is this.....It takes money to go fast....I would rather talk to the guy without the $5K heads that ran high tens than the guy with a set of $5K iron heads in the 9's.  Obviously, throwing money at an enigne/car will make it fly without any brains...It takes a certain amount more to be able to wave at the guy in the 9's through the windshield, in the other lane, with a cheaper car/engine. A little more smarts/thinking, and the cheaper car is going around all that big dollar stuff.

[Ghoste]

They're cool AND they get a discount??  If they ever invent time travel I am SO going with those guys to smoke cigarettes in the high school parking lot. Clearly the payoff later in life is worth it.

[Cooter]

Another thing I can't believe is some actually think these guys cars actually weigh the stock weight. I mean, if they are running DOT tires with Redlines painted on 'em, CRAZY iron/high dollar heads, Stroker cranks, Aftermarket blocks, etc. What the hell makes one think that that "Stock Appearing" K-frame isn't made out of RZ5 magnesium? Aluminum? Or how bout some space age Carbon fiber?
What's to say that "Stock Appearing" A-833 "appears to be Cast iron?

I don't buy it. I know what it takes to run that fast with a true stock car and these guys got something else going on. There, I'm done with this thread. Sometimes, you just gotta say when. Geesh.

[Budnicks]

It's not always about the money "sometimes", it's knowing what to do & were to do it, where to spend the money wisely & "sometimes" it's just a shit load of time on a flow bench or under the car scraping off undercoating, chassis set ups, weighing the car & putting/moving weight where it will work for you or what ever, if your a racer of any kind, you know it's about time spent on every little minute details, hard work & the proper combos, more than money "sometimes", if not most times... It's about the knowledge & how you apply it, to make your combo work, not just money... But it doesn't hurt to have money either, but just throwing money at something, doesn't make it f.a.s.t. 

[Ghoste]

Exactly, there is a lot of effort put into those cars.  Cooter you are right about weight but I don't know that anyone is using magnesium K frames.  I don't know they aren't either.  I do know many or most of those cars only have the drivers seat as something you can actually sit in and there are a lot of instrument panels that are just the faces, stuff like that.  There may very well be all sorts of carbon fiber too.
Honestly I am more impressed by the guys who take the time to remove all of the springs in their seats to lighten the car than someone who just installs a giant shot of nitrous oxide and calls it a day.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I'm most impressed by the guys that run big heavy cars that are not stripped and gutted and pull ridiculous times. Heyoldguy's work reminds me of my friend mark. He may drive a chevy, but the end result is the same. He has a 65 chevy wagon that is full metal bodied, full interiored, fully dashed...yada yada yada, you get the idea. It runs on 93 from any gas station, its his true daily driver. You pop the hood and it looks like any other 454 with iron heads but it runs 10.0s on motor hanging the wheels. Heads are everything!

[sixpack70]

I didn't see it on here, but check out the FAST rules. They are actually meant so everyone can have fun. Yes, the top guys will be spending some money to go all out. They have everyone run elimination rounds until they get the top 8. The top 8 run heads up. Everyone else will run against people with similar times to them for I think it was 3 runs. That way you are racing someone about your skill and about your power. I looked into trying to participate this year, but I don't have a vehicle close enough to stock or restored enough to do it. Also, everything I have read says that they are pretty helpful for the newcomers. They may not tell you their cam profile, but they will tell you how to hook up on stock bias ply tires.

[Ghoste]

Agreed.  I haven't read the rules myself but I do know a couple of guys who participate in it and they are definitely bucks down kind of racers.  They may not get time in the magazines but they have as much fun as the top dogs.

[cdr]

today i read the rules,i like,but they dont run down here in the south

[AirborneSilva]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

The other side of this is that the people spending money to develop better and faster are the ones who make it cheaper and easier for others to acquire later.  That's how it works.  And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...

Well said 

[Budnicks]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

The other side of this is that the people spending money to develop better and faster are the ones who make it cheaper and easier for others to acquire later.  That's how it works.  And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...

Well said 

Amen, very well said, fellow Mopar brother 

[dangina]

As for the "Low dollar" 383 running low 11's? Sure, but how much will that cost the average joe to build? 

Actually, not very much ; stock cast crank, stock rods from a late model 400 and the pistons were NHRA legal (heavy) TRW replacements. Nothing fancy. The heads were cleaned up with new hardware (stock 2.08/1.74 valves) and no work on the ports....they flowed 233cfm max. Anybody could easily duplicate these economically and get more if they used the MP porting templates and spent a few hours with a die-grinder. Those mods (free) are worth an easy 50hp 




Ron

where can one get these templates

[cdr]

go to this link
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEQQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jegs.com%2Fp%2FMopar-Performance%2FMopar-Performance-Porting-Templates%2F1175475%2F10002%2F-1&ei=OZg9UKi-DOSW2gXo-YH4Dw&usg=AFQjCNFqTFmvxs8MTpF9sRiD2JoA0DqOuw&cad=rja