F.A.S.T 906 head challenge

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

The other side of this is that the people spending money to develop better and faster are the ones who make it cheaper and easier for others to acquire later.  That's how it works.  And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...

[BSB67]

I don't understand the issue that some have with the FAST or Pure Stock stuff.  It has certainly sparked new interest in the sport for some.  The receipt for low buck 10 second cars have been around for 30 years and I personally find it uninteresting.  Going to a bracket race and looking in the stands suggests to me that others feel the same way.

The FAST and Stock guys keep going faster and faster, and they drag the average Joe along with them by passing along what they learn, directly, or indirectly.  Sure, the few guys at the very top of the of the class are spend more than most of us ever will.  But we all benefit from their experimenting and pushing the envelope.  Today,  525 hp in a BB Mopar with UNMODIFIED exhaust manifolds (i.e. an 11 second car) is no big deal.  Those that believe that you need to port exhaust manifolds to within an inch of their life to support 600 hp are truly uninformed.  15 years ago, we all thought these things were impossible.  And to achieve these performance levels is not magic.  And although not cheap, it's not that expensive either if you are already planning to rebuild your engine.  It is more of a matter of just doing it right.

[Ghoste]

EXACTLY!!

[BLUE68RT4ME]

I don't understand the issue that some have with the FAST or Pure Stock stuff.  It has certainly sparked new interest in the sport for some.  The receipt for low buck 10 second cars have been around for 30 years and I personally find it uninteresting.  Going to a bracket race and looking in the stands suggests to me that others feel the same way.

The FAST and Stock guys keep going faster and faster, and they drag the average Joe along with them by passing along what they learn, directly, or indirectly.  Sure, the few guys at the very top of the of the class are spend more than most of us ever will.  But we all benefit from their experimenting and pushing the envelope.  Today,  525 hp in a BB Mopar with UNMODIFIED exhaust manifolds (i.e. an 11 second car) is no big deal.  Those that believe that you need to port exhaust manifolds to within an inch of their life to support 600 hp are truly uninformed.  15 years ago, we all thought these things were impossible.  And to achieve these performance levels is not magic.  And although not cheap, it's not that expensive either if you are already planning to rebuild your engine.  It is more of a matter of just doing it right.

Perfect example, the new found (maybe not so new but still growing) interest that F.A.S.T. has created has caused a ton of experimenting and engineering on how to make what we already have even better.  And to Ron's point, Porter is the guy who ground the cam for my motor.  I wanted it to look and sound stock but blow my Chevy buddies away.  He gave be exactly that!  It's awesome.  And he told me that extrude honing my manifolds was a waste of money.  They compared a pair of HP manifolds that were honed to a pair that were not on a 650 horse 340 on the dyno and they didn't see one horsepower difference.  It may very on different manifolds but it wasn't worth the investment of my money to possibly get 1-5 HP on something I'm only going to be puddle jumping on the weekends.  All the people that paid Porter to build their motors to the limits made it possible for me to have what I wanted for a much cheaper price!

[Cooter]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.Not sure if this is directed at me, but here goes. No, Not ALL of them are rich, but many of them are. I mean, you have to have money to own a HEMI anything. You are trying to make it seem like those FAST guys are all "Average Joes"..They are NOT.Round here, you either make it look good, or make it fly...NOT BOTH as these guys do...Sorry, but just like the rich guy that shows up to the car show and takes all the marbles when all he did was buy the car he's in, I refuse to support rich guys and their quest to make a Race car look like a street car. You choose to support it and that's great afterall, these types have to have the guys that follow them religiously, otherwise, it wouldn't be popular. Show me the receipts on some of those cars you seem to think the "Average Joe" can afford, and then we'll see who's got money and who's not. The Term "Average Joe" is realative as in some circles this person may only make $20K/year, and in other circles he may make $200K/year. Sure if I had the money I'd do it too, but I'd also understand that there would be those who are gonna  call it like it is like I am now. No, there isn't an official "Board", but we like to call the types like myself TRUE "Grass roots" people. Those trying to go fast without huge pockets that can experiment by buying fifteen different cams. We have one shot at it and it better fly right out the box, or it's N20 next. Hope this allows you to understand what a true "Average Joe" is referring to, as I know what it takes to run those numbers and it AIN'T WITH STOCK PARTS..

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.People who race cars evidently, in my opinion had to have some kind of finacial security in order to do it in the first place. Been doing it off and on for over 25 years and I can tell you it is a big money game now, not like it used to be. Let alone trying to make a race car appear stock.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...Don't even get me started on Professional racing...Look at all your hero's and tell me Chrysler didn't GIVE them racing parts...Tell me the likes of Ronnie Sox(Rest his soul) wasn't in the right place at the right time when the "little" guy could and DID win some races. Tell me that Sox and MArtin didn't get parts/cars "Donated" by Chrysler to beat on? Tell me that every time they blew an engine there was a tractor trailer load of fresh, new Hemi's waiting for them to install? Don't know bout you, but Chrysler hasn't offered to keep my Dart in racing parts yet, and I've asked. So, Professional racing can kiss my ass. Big money and if you don't have it, go home. I call Bullsh*t. But, as with anything else, there are those that will defend what's some call BS. I believe this is the case with this post I'm answering right now. FAST is for the "Well off" professional raceer, NOT the "Average Joe" ....Otherwise, a set of ported "906" heads for the avergae joe wouldn't cost anywhere near $5K...

[Ghoste]

If there was no professional racing, do you think the "average Joe's" could keep the tracks open or support a speed parts industry?  I think there is some trickle down here.  If there isnt an exciting series to get asses covering he seats in the stand, the tracks will die faster than they already are.  Without the guy testing 15 cams at his own expense we don't need to worry about getting one shot at choosing the right one because there will likely be only one, or maybe none.  I for one am glad Ronnie Sox got freebies from Chrysler.
I too do not have 5k to spend on 906 heads, but I'm happy to see that someone is still doiing work on them for someone else to test.  I'll never afford a Top Fuel car but I'm glad they still run them.  If someone new goes to the track and gets excited about drag racing by that nitro fire and thunder that they go home and drag that old car out from behind the barn to make a bracket, that to me is a good thing.

[firefighter3931]

I don't understand the issue that some have with the FAST or Pure Stock stuff.  It has certainly sparked new interest in the sport for some.  The receipt for low buck 10 second cars have been around for 30 years and I personally find it uninteresting.  Going to a bracket race and looking in the stands suggests to me that others feel the same way.

The FAST and Stock guys keep going faster and faster, and they drag the average Joe along with them by passing along what they learn, directly, or indirectly.  Sure, the few guys at the very top of the of the class are spend more than most of us ever will.  But we all benefit from their experimenting and pushing the envelope.  Today,  525 hp in a BB Mopar with UNMODIFIED exhaust manifolds (i.e. an 11 second car) is no big deal.  Those that believe that you need to port exhaust manifolds to within an inch of their life to support 600 hp are truly uninformed.  15 years ago, we all thought these things were impossible.  And to achieve these performance levels is not magic.  And although not cheap, it's not that expensive either if you are already planning to rebuild your engine.  It is more of a matter of just doing it right.

Perfect example, the new found (maybe not so new but still growing) interest that F.A.S.T. has created has caused a ton of experimenting and engineering on how to make what we already have even better.  And to Ron's point, Porter is the guy who ground the cam for my motor.  I wanted it to look and sound stock but blow my Chevy buddies away.  He gave be exactly that!  It's awesome.  And he told me that extrude honing my manifolds was a waste of money.  They compared a pair of HP manifolds that were honed to a pair that were not on a 650 horse 340 on the dyno and they didn't see one horsepower difference.  It may very on different manifolds but it wasn't worth the investment of my money to possibly get 1-5 HP on something I'm only going to be puddle jumping on the weekends.  All the people that paid Porter to build their motors to the limits made it possible for me to have what I wanted for a much cheaper price!

Some good points in both of these posts 

The R&D done by Dwayne and HPMike trickles down to the rest of us choosing to build this type of car.  The guys at the very top of the class are extremely competitive and yes they spend lots of cash pushing the envelope but most are in it for the fun and comraderie. Satisfaction is derived from building something that does what it isn't supposed to be able to. It becomes a personal challenge to get the most out of it and let the times fall where they may. 


Mark, great car ! Kudos to you for staying the course and following your dream....it takes a lot of will power and perserverance to follow through. I know because it took me 7 years to build mine the way i wanted to. Winners never quit and quitters never win. 

Not sure if this is directed at me, but here goes. No, Not ALL of them are rich, but many of them are. I mean, you have to have money to own a HEMI anything. You are trying to make it seem like those FAST guys are all "Average Joes"..They are NOT.Round here, you either make it look good, or make it fly...NOT BOTH as these guys do...Sorry, but just like the rich guy that shows up to the car show and takes all the marbles when all he did was buy the car he's in, I refuse to support rich guys and their quest to make a Race car look like a street car. You choose to support it and that's great afterall, these types have to have the guys that follow them religiously, otherwise, it wouldn't be popular. Show me the receipts on some of those cars you seem to think the "Average Joe" can afford, and then we'll see who's got money and who's not. The Term "Average Joe" is realative as in some circles this person may only make $20K/year, and in other circles he may make $200K/year. Sure if I had the money I'd do it too, but I'd also understand that there would be those who are gonna  call it like it is like I am now. No, there isn't an official "Board", but we like to call the types like myself TRUE "Grass roots" people. Those trying to go fast without huge pockets that can experiment by buying fifteen different cams. We have one shot at it and it better fly right out the box, or it's N20 next. Hope this allows you to understand what a true "Average Joe" is referring to, as I know what it takes to run those numbers and it AIN'T WITH STOCK PARTS..

Cooter, i can sense your frustration in this post and understand perfectly where you're coming from. 

Not all quick cars have big dollar motors under the hood. How about an iron head 383 with a cast crank, stock rods, unported iron heads, flat tappet solid (non roller), Performer RPM intake, Holley 850, Cheapo $200 headers, SS leaf springs and 83/4 out back.... running 11.20's @ 3700lbs. Sound impossible ? It's not....Dwayne built it and raced the car (68 Satellite) and has a box of timeslips to prove it. Geez, this car still has a 5/16 fuel line and mechanical fuel pump....not very hi tech  This car is about as close to "Grass Roots" as you can get. 

It's all in the combination....allways has been 


Ron

[Cooter]

If there was no professional racing, do you think the "average Joe's" could keep the tracks open or support a speed parts industry?  I think there is some trickle down here.  If there isnt an exciting series to get asses covering he seats in the stand, the tracks will die faster than they already are.  Without the guy testing 15 cams at his own expense we don't need to worry about getting one shot at choosing the right one because there will likely be only one, or maybe none.  I for one am glad Ronnie Sox got freebies from Chrysler.
I too do not have 5k to spend on 906 heads, but I'm happy to see that someone is still doiing work on them for someone else to test.  I'll never afford a Top Fuel car but I'm glad they still run them.  If someone new goes to the track and gets excited about drag racing by that nitro fire and thunder that they go home and drag that old car out from behind the barn to make a bracket, that to me is a good thing.

Certainly not, all the drag strips would go back to what they were Before Big money hit. PRIVATELY owned like the little guy down in the south STILL OPERATING A small time strip. Not looking to go backwards by no means, but everybody seems to want to think that if you disagree with anybody having huge money in a sport and look at it as a bad thing because ultimatelywhen the big money shows up, the little guys get pushed out. most will follow and not stand up for the "Little guys" because the "Little guys" don't pay and bills for the rest likethe big money guys do...I for one, refuse to knuckle under and proclaim that big money coming around is a good thing I don't care how  many excuses are given to the contrary.

As for the "Low dollar" 383 running low 11's? Sure, but how much will that cost the average joe to build? How many cams/carb's/intakes/etc. were bought before that final "Cool factor" combo was figured out? Show me the reciepts.
I have no problem telling what I have in my junk. $15K in the whole car. Spent right? Spent wrong? Who knows, but it's spent none the less. MY term "Grass Roots" and others seem to differ. AGAIN, let's see how fast some of these guys can go on knowledge alone when they have a spending cap...Factory Stock THIS! when you have $15K to spend in the whole project, we'll see who's knowledgable and who's just throwing money at it.

Same thing with the Superbee I mentioned earlier..Sure, it's impressive, but will cost the average Joe around $25-30K to "Duplicate" this combo...Not cheap IMO., but certainly cheap in others eyes. This FAST crap is a gimmic at best, otherwise why not just state that your 1970 RoadRunner Drag car,with a Hemi runs deep in the 9's?
No, that wouldn't have the same "Appeal to the Average Joe" as one that appears stock doing just that..There are those that see through this. The ones that clearly cannot are those in the stands as they actually believe a FACTORY STOCK "Appearing" 1970 Roadrunner will run these numbers. (When if it were explained to them about how that isn't a 426, it's a 600 C.I. stroker that came out  of dudes race car the week before, with it's 15:1 compression and a roller cam that rivals most Pro stock cams today.)These are the ones I see on here wondering why after spending huge money on a Stroker build, the dyno numbers weren't what they thought they were supposed to be...

[firefighter3931]

As for the "Low dollar" 383 running low 11's? Sure, but how much will that cost the average joe to build? 

Actually, not very much ; stock cast crank, stock rods from a late model 400 and the pistons were NHRA legal (heavy) TRW replacements. Nothing fancy. The heads were cleaned up with new hardware (stock 2.08/1.74 valves) and no work on the ports....they flowed 233cfm max. Anybody could easily duplicate these economically and get more if they used the MP porting templates and spent a few hours with a die-grinder. Those mods (free) are worth an easy 50hp 

The RPM intake is an off the shelf piece and so is the 850dp carb and Hooker Comp headers. The only non-shelf item is the cam which is a custom grind but if you wanted one just like it all you would have to do is call a guy like Dwayne and have him spec it for you. That service is cheap and he only charges a few bucks more than you could buy one off the shelf. Yet YOU would benefit from years of knowledge & experience and not have to do lots of experimenting. 

The point is....there is a ton of information out there to help the novice "get it right" the first time. You don't need fancy parts or high dollar builds to have a fun car that will run hard. You do have to be willing to listen and trust others experience. 

Fwiw, that little 383 made right around 500hp....not bad for the sum of parts in this combo 

Say you took that 383 and dropped it into a 3200lb Dart ; you'd have a 10.70-10.80 second ride on the cheap and it wouldn't have cost much to build. 


Ron

[cdr]

thats 460 rwhp,i am impressed,and i am not being sarcastic 

[FLG]

Guess I should have explained a little better.. don't dislike the ppl spending big.money just hate the ppl that do but don't help anyone else in the hobby

[Budnicks]

I know what the FAST series is, I wasn't sure if this post was directed at anyone in particular or not. I would love to have a set of high flowing, reliable iron heads.

c00nhunterjoe Amen to that brother, so would I.... I think HeyOldGuy was trying to see if any of the F.A.S.T. guys were here on this board &/or if they were willing to experiment & keep his head porting design proprietary & be able to do some testing with some of his very obviously, very good flowing iron 906 casting cylinder heads.... I don't know why the post turned into the rich vs the poor thing, or a too thin wall over ported, durability issue, when people know absolutely nothing about these actual heads, he is talking about.... Or any of the other side arguments, that are going on here... It's a post about allot of time, knowledge/experience, spent on a set of great flowing cylinder heads & allot of work spent on a set of cast iron 906 heads, why is everyone so down on the subject... Maybe hes trying to help... Maybe not... BUT, You should be asking the guy, how he did it ??... &/or how you could achieve the same results ??... how many sets of heads did he go thru to figure this stuff out ??.... Instead for some reason, it always gets way off topic &/or becomes some pissing contest or about someone or something else, vaguely related... Do any of you know this guy ??... I do, he's a great guy & very knowledgeable guy & he know what he's talking about... Give him a chance, "You could actually, learn something here maybe", even if you don't think you need to learn anything or think you are a know it all or expert on the subject, try being open minded.... Sorry  

[Ghoste]

I don't think everyone is down on the subject are they?  I thought most were pretty impressed.

[Budnicks]

I don't think everyone is down on the subject are they?  I thought most were pretty impressed.

I guess, some were, maybe that was a bad choice of words... Have a nice day...

[Cooter]

Everything I stated had in some way or another to do with the FAST series of racing. Maybe not a set of $5K "906" heads, but none the less.

I don't think anybody actually knew what the hell the actual topic of this thread was. Maybe a chest beating session? I don't know. 

People's opinions differ even if it may be a friend  of yours who you think might be the best damn engine man ever. The problem comes in when you exclaim that everybody who posted in said thread that they are being "Off topic" because of their opinion about a guy/friend you know differs from your own.

[Budnicks]

For a qualified big block F.A.S.T. competitor that thinks they could use a better head, I will hand deliver a pair of 906 heads to be tested on your engine. On the track or the dyno, run your engine, pull the heads and I will place a set of 906 heads on your engine. Then you bolt everything back down and run the engine again, we'll see if there is any improvement.

I don't have any maximum effort heads ready at this time but these heads flow, 292 cfm @ .500", 323 cfm @ .600" and 332 cfm @ .700".

Box stock Edelbrock Victors on our bench flow, 277 cfm @ .500", 305 cfm @ .600" and 324 cfm @ .700".

There will be no flow testing or pictures taken of the heads. We will put them back in the boxes and go home. Unless you think they're worth keeping.

Yes, Maybe Just a little well deserved chest beating... maybe I'm just too sensitive... yea right....

[mauve66]

i guess its my fault cuase i think what they do is cool, i don't care that they spent $$XXXXX to figure out what works and what doesn't, i like the fact that the car still looks stock.  i don't care if they trailer it to the track or not. its all the little things to get that power to the ground in a useful way. sure i know the motor is a stroker, the heads are ported, the exhaust manifolds are extrude honed, the bumper brackets are sluminum instead of steel, any extra metal in the car is gone, if their model is capable they swap to a scooped hood, full interior, etc etc,. 
i go to the local midnight mayhem, 300+ "average joes" show up and its amazing what they can't do with slicks, scoops, open pipes, leaf blowers duct taped to the carb, gutted interior, etc, etc.
this thread was started to solicite business to show the man's skills and see if there was a market for an item
sorry i said those FAST racers were doing somehting i thought was cool

oh yeah, until they started this series noone was making sticky stock APPEARING tires or extruding manifolds (only headers), the trickle down works for everyone, just not democrats when the republicans are doing it................

[BLUE68RT4ME]

this thread was started to solicite business to show the man's skills and see if there was a market for an item
sorry i said those FAST racers were doing somehting i thought was cool

oh yeah, until they started this series noone was making sticky stock APPEARING tires or extruding manifolds (only headers), the trickle down works for everyone, just not democrats when the republicans are doing it................

AMEN!  To HEYOLDGUY, sorry if we stole your thread but in a way some of us were showing support.  I can't speak to the quality of your work because I've never met you but I appreciate everyone that goes for just a little more and I hope you developed something above and beyond.

As for Mauve66, I agree whole heartedly.  Trickle down works in several aspects... unless you get confused by  facts!   

[heyoldguy]

Must say, I have appreciated all the posts in this thread. All opinions are valuable and all should be considered. I realize that when I start a thread, it will go where it goes and I have no control over it.

We have had some success in porting cylinder heads. I KNEW that in some circles we would be ridiculed for posting the 906 flows we believe we have achieved. I was right, so I offered to prove it. I would have liked to sell some $5000 dollar cylinder heads, but never believed it would happen. Again, I was right. I just offered to let them test them on their engine. No takers. I really don't blame them.

It's okay we believe in ourselves.

I was hoping to prove to the nonbelievers like we did once before. When others in our class were making 585 horsepower with their RPM headed 451 ci engines, we were asked what we were going to get with our 451 the next day. We said 700 hp. There was a lot of laughing that evening. Nobody could get 700 horsepower from a RPM headed 451 on pump gas. They were right, we didn't get 700. It was 723 HP.

Chest beating? You betcha!

I like what a Captain in the Army Corp of Engineers once told me, "He that tooteth not his own horn, the same shall not be tooted!"

[cdr]

Must say, I have appreciated all the posts in this thread. All opinions are valuable and all should be considered. I realize that when I start a thread, it will go where it goes and I have no control over it.

We have had some success in porting cylinder heads. I KNEW that in some circles we would be ridiculed for posting the 906 flows we believe we have achieved. I was right, so I offered to prove it. I would have liked to sell some $5000 dollar cylinder heads, but never believed it would happen. Again, I was right. I just offered to let them test them on their engine. No takers. I really don't blame them.

It's okay we believe in ourselves.

I was hoping to prove to the nonbelievers like we did once before. When others in our class were making 585 horsepower with their RPM headed 451 ci engines, we were asked what we were going to get with our 451 the next day. We said 700 hp. There was a lot of laughing that evening. Nobody could get 700 horsepower from a RPM headed 451 on pump gas. They were right, we didn't get 700. It was 723 HP.

Chest beating? You betcha!

I like what a Captain in the Army Corp of Engineers once told me, "He that tooteth not his own horn, the same shall not be tooted!"

i will say this, i dont doubt what you can do ,i have been in a similar boat ,when you kick others butt with what looks like less,apparently you have found the right set up,i am out of the porting businesses,but still do my own stuff,still workin on my super stealth's,R & D ON HEADS & cams is a blast,i wish you the best------charlie keel   

[Budnicks]

this thread was started to solicite business to show the man's skills and see if there was a market for an item
sorry i said those FAST racers were doing somehting i thought was cool

oh yeah, until they started this series noone was making sticky stock APPEARING tires or extruding manifolds (only headers), the trickle down works for everyone, just not democrats when the republicans are doing it................

AMEN!  To HEYOLDGUY, sorry if we stole your thread but in a way some of us were showing support.  I can't speak to the quality of your work because I've never met you but I appreciate everyone that goes for just a little more and I hope you developed something above and beyond.

As for Mauve66, I agree whole heartedly.  Trickle down works in several aspects... unless you get confused by  facts!   

Thanks guys, I whole heartedly agree with both of you, I wasn't really meaning to be accusing anyone of anything, that I don't do myself, I just wanted people to have an open mind & it looks like many do... Thanks & sorry for any confusion or if I hurt anyones feeling, I just want people to be a little more open minded, for the sake of some of the people that aren't in the "inner circle" of this forums regular posters... mostly good guys all arround...

[Ghoste]

An inner circle?  I never knew about that, man I'm always getting dumped on by the cool kids.

[Budnicks]

An inner circle?  I never knew about that, man I'm always getting dumped on by the cool kids.

Me too... Yep an "inner circle", the percieved "in crowd" or "the cool guys", theres another old quote for ya...   It ment the regular posters here  ...   not anyone specific  ... 

[Cooter]

Wow.....Hmmmm, and how does all this talk about an "Inner Circle" fit into the $5K "906" FAST racing heads again?

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are in the inner circle you get a 10% discount.