F.A.S.T 906 head challenge

[heyoldguy]

For a qualified big block F.A.S.T. competitor that thinks they could use a better head, I will hand deliver a pair of 906 heads to be tested on your engine. On the track or the dyno, run your engine, pull the heads and I will place a set of 906 heads on your engine. Then you bolt everything back down and run the engine again, we'll see if there is any improvement.

I don't have any maximum effort heads ready at this time but these heads flow, 292 cfm @ .500", 323 cfm @ .600" and 332 cfm @ .700".

Box stock Edelbrock Victors on our bench flow, 277 cfm @ .500", 305 cfm @ .600" and 324 cfm @ .700".

There will be no flow testing or pictures taken of the heads. We will put them back in the boxes and go home. Unless you think they're worth keeping.

[oldschool]

o

[c00nhunterjoe]

I don't know what this is in regards to but those are some impressive numbers for a "stock" head!

[heyoldguy]

o

It's alright, I understand. Maybe it is being arrogant. Maybe it is confidance in what we know. It is anyway, worth doing some soul searching.

[Cooter]

 

[mauve66]

those FAST guys are always looking for something extra, its amazing what they can do with a stock looking engine and suspension and here we are trying to get 700HP just to get into the 11's

[Cooter]

those FAST guys are always looking for something extra, its amazing what they can do with a stock looking engine and suspension and here we are trying to get 700HP just to get into the 11's

Not hard to do when you have $100K cars that "Appear" to be stock...LOADS of money put in 'em to be able to say these few words.

"Hey guy, high 10's....Not too bad for a "Stock" 426 Hemi in a Roadrunner huh?"

All Bullsh*t, fake out games.

[c00nhunterjoe]

10's? I like the ones that look stock, sound like a possible 12 second car, but then rip the back bumper off because of the wheelie they just pulled and bust off a 9 second pass. 

[mauve66]

i'm just talking about the average middle of the pack, not the front runners

those FAST guys are always looking for something extra, its amazing what they can do with a stock looking engine and suspension and here we are trying to get 700HP just to get into the 11's

Not hard to do when you have $100K cars that "Appear" to be stock...LOADS of money put in 'em to be able to say these few words.

"Hey guy, high 10's....Not too bad for a "Stock" 426 Hemi in a Roadrunner huh?"

All Bullsh*t, fake out games.

i don't know about 100K, sure most of them make their cars look show worthy, but its not a requirement of the race, its the testing and understanding they go through using 50 yr old components in the suspension to harness the 20K motor that amaze me, and they still look stock and run faster than us (the rest of us regular people that is)

[Ghoste]

I have no idea what they have in their cars financially but I sure do love watching them run.  No question there is serious money invested in some but there is also a tremendous amount of attention being paid to every single detail on those cars no matter how insignificant iit may seem to the rest of us.

[FLG]

Cooter is exactly right, for example there "stock" exhaust manifolds are internally honed out to as thin as they can get em.

Im not knocking em it takes a lot to get a car into the 9-10's, but you need some DEEP pockets to play their game and its nothing more than the person with the deepest pockets who comes out on top...and personally, that aint no fun.

Im sure there are some guys with less money, and they just do it for the fun...and i bet you those are the guys that drive there car...dosnt sit on some trailer and get towed around race to race or show to show and when its all over its put back in the garage. Again im not knocking em, to each his/her own but when you have 100k to spend on your car....im not impressed when you turn up a 9-10. But when the guy from the sticks shows up in his beat up LeBaron painted multiple colors of primer, that him and his buddy bubba threw together over a weekend and some beers with no cash, using junk yard parts, and throws up a 10 second run...thats what makes me happy.

[Ghoste]

It is supposed to be "factory appearing".  There was a time when the independent and Bubba could field a winning car in Pro Stock or even a fuel car.  Now you can't even purchase a Top Fuel car and run it for a weekend without a sponsor.  Heck even Stock Eliminator costs big bucks.  These days, abut the only home for the LeBaron with Buba's engine is bracket racing.

[Cooter]

This is why round these parts, we don't give the "Big money" cars any props as it takes NO skill to just keep throwing huge money at a car until it flies.

However, those couple guys next to that 1970 Roadrunner with the iron headed 440 and lakewood traction bars, tunnel ram, 4-speed, and rust holes, running deep in the 11's is where it's at for me. I don't know bout you guys, but I can't stand to watch rich people play at the local track. It serves as only a constant reminder of what I will never have. Therefore, I just prefer to surround myself with like minded people....Read...Poor.

[Ghoste]

I beg to differ Cooter, whatever money is being spent on some the top tier racing, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of skill also involved.  I get envious too but I try not to let it bother me.

[Cooter]

I beg to differ Cooter, whatever money is being spent on some the top tier racing, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of skill also involved.  I get envious too but I try not to let it bother me.

Musta lost something in translation on this one too. Throwing huge money at a race/street car means all YOU did was throw money at it so someone else (who's the one to talk to), actually has the skill...

Sorta like hearing this at cruise night. "Hey man, your car? "yes". "What all did you do to it?" "Filled it up full of gas and Armour All'd the tires"..NOTHING in common with that type for me. If NASCAR didn't have all those rules about cars being EXACTLY alike, you'd have the huge money ruining the chances for anybody to just walk up with their best effort car and take the prize. Now, it seems you don't have an 800 C.I. engine and a multi-million $ sponsor, you don't stand a chance. What happened to the days of the average guy out on the track taking the prize with some home built junk? Big money is what happened.

Alot of people do not like my idea of keeping the Cubic Dollars out of Drag racing and getting back to who's got the skills. I prefer to have a running tally of money spent and a limit. Something like $10-20K in WHOLE CAR. Let's see how many (Purchase price included), can run deep in the 9's without throwing huge money at it then.

There's an article I recently read in Mopar Muscle mag about Mike Daurity(However it's spelled) that used to run that stupid KOS crap. Has a 1969 Dodge Super Bee running in the 9's. At the end of the article, tells how Dude can duplicate what he has done with the SB for the low sum of $30K....

The car looked the part being all black primer and orange wheel'd, rat rodded, roach of an engine, dirty, no interior, etc. But, yet it takes $30K to run a roach of a car in the 9's. Hmmmm, I guess I musta had some busted ROACH of a Dart running high 10's then for under $15K.

[Ghoste]

Ah,I  see what you mean.

[Budnicks]

For a qualified big block F.A.S.T. competitor that thinks they could use a better head, I will hand deliver a pair of 906 heads to be tested on your engine. On the track or the dyno, run your engine, pull the heads and I will place a set of 906 heads on your engine. Then you bolt everything back down and run the engine again, we'll see if there is any improvement.

I don't have any maximum effort heads ready at this time but these heads flow, 292 cfm @ .500", 323 cfm @ .600" and 332 cfm @ .700".

Box stock Edelbrock Victors on our bench flow, 277 cfm @ .500", 305 cfm @ .600" and 324 cfm @ .700".

There will be no flow testing or pictures taken of the heads. We will put them back in the boxes and go home. Unless you think they're worth keeping.

I'm sure one of the big time wedge guys, in the F.A.S.T. series, where all the engine has to appear stock {on the outside}, have a stock sounding idle {loosely interpreted}, have factory cast iron exhaust {internally ported to the moon}, running on skinny street tires {stock dimensions, with sticky rubber compounds, stock appearing} among other rules... They would love to have them 906 castings, as long as they could keep them proprietary & not show them or photograph them or tell every Tom Dick & Harry or flow bench them etc.... great flow #'s there HeyOldGuy  very impressive 

[Budnicks]

I don't know what this is in regards to but those are some impressive numbers for a "stock" head!

F.A.S.T. is a drag racing series, mostly back east & in the northeast, but also in some other places too, that has some very strict rules of "Appearing Stock", thru-out their rules built in, with extensive internal modification, camshaft, stroker engines, balancing, lightening, etc. allowed, kind of an ubber S/S on steriods without all the aftermarket externals, fat tires headers etc..... Those are damn impressive #'s for 906 Iron casting, especially if they are done without any noticeable welding... Like the Mancini Racing 69.5 RR 4406bbl A12 cover car below, I think it was the record holder at one time in the high 9's (correction it actually runs in the 10's, the RR I was thinking of is a 68 Hemi car that is in the 9's)... Factory Appearing Stock Tire

[firefighter3931]

Like the Mancini Racing 69.5 RR 4406bbl A12 cover car below, it was the record holder at one time in the 9's... Factory Appearing Stock Tire

No A-12 car has been close to a 9 second pass. Dudek's HEMI Roadrunner dipped into the high 9's on one or two occassions but that isn't typical. 

A 906 Head can be ported to flow the "big number" which will translate into big horsepower, but how long will the structural integrity of the casting remain intact ? Therein lies the problem ; durability becomes a huge issue. Nobody wants to dump 5k into a set of heads that might last 10 or 15 passes....then crack. 

Dwayne @ Porter Racing has done several sets for the F.A.S.T. guys and they are not a full-on max effort port job with Big flow numbers. Typically these heads flow in the high 280cfm range with emphisas on durability/reliability balanced with performance. The cam profile plays a huge part and Dwayne has several propritary custom grinds. Years of experimenting and countless hours in the dyno cell account for the oustanding performance of these impressive machines. 


Ron

[Budnicks]

Like the Mancini Racing 69.5 RR 4406bbl A12 cover car below, it was the record holder at one time in the 9's... Factory Appearing Stock Tire

No A-12 car has been close to a 9 second pass. Dudek's HEMI Roadrunner dipped into the high 9's on one or two occassions but that isn't typical.  

A 906 Head can be ported to flow the "big number" which will translate into big horsepower, but how long will the structural integrity of the casting remain intact ? Therein lies the problem ; durability becomes a huge issue. Nobody wants to dump 5k into a set of heads that might last 10 or 15 passes....then crack.  

Dwayne @ Porter Racing has done several sets for the F.A.S.T. guys and they are not a full-on max effort port job with Big flow numbers. Typically these heads flow in the high 280cfm range with emphisas on durability/reliability balanced with performance. The cam profile plays a huge part and Dwayne has several propritary custom grinds. Years of experimenting and countless hours in the dyno cell account for the oustanding performance of these impressive machines.  


Ron

My bad, I had the wrong car posted, oh well... but the other car is in the other post it's a 68 RR Black Hemi car... Here is a couple more the record holder is an ugly but very f.a.s.t. Mustang actually...

[Budnicks]

Jim & Cody LaRoy from Challis Idaho has some very impressive Flow #'s on their heads, without any durability issues, that I am aware of anyway, they aren't the big name guys, probably aren't even very well know by many people, but they sure know how to port heads & get the most out of them, Iron or Aluminum, they also have run a bunch of Mopar Muscle Engine Challenges too, done pretty well by my recollection, especially for the lack of funds they are dealt/handed or maintaining with-in the rules...

[cdr]

Like the Mancini Racing 69.5 RR 4406bbl A12 cover car below, it was the record holder at one time in the 9's... Factory Appearing Stock Tire

No A-12 car has been close to a 9 second pass. Dudek's HEMI Roadrunner dipped into the high 9's on one or two occassions but that isn't typical. 

A 906 Head can be ported to flow the "big number" which will translate into big horsepower, but how long will the structural integrity of the casting remain intact ? Therein lies the problem ; durability becomes a huge issue. Nobody wants to dump 5k into a set of heads that might last 10 or 15 passes....then crack. 

Dwayne @ Porter Racing has done several sets for the F.A.S.T. guys and they are not a full-on max effort port job with Big flow numbers. Typically these heads flow in the high 280cfm range with emphisas on durability/reliability balanced with performance. The cam profile plays a huge part and Dwayne has several propritary custom grinds. Years of experimenting and countless hours in the dyno cell account for the oustanding performance of these impressive machines. 


Ron

[Ghoste]

Is that Mustang still running in FAST?  I thought Ihad heard something about him finally going beyond the Factory Appearing part and entering the next phase with it?

[Budnicks]

Is that Mustang still running in FAST?  I thought Ihad heard something about him finally going beyond the Factory Appearing part and entering the next phase with it?

I don't know, it was from the F.A.S.T. websites, home page...

[c00nhunterjoe]

I know what the FAST series is, I wasn't sureif this post was directed at anyone in particular or not. I would love to have a set of high flowing, reliable iron heads.

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

The other side of this is that the people spending money to develop better and faster are the ones who make it cheaper and easier for others to acquire later.  That's how it works.  And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...

[BSB67]

I don't understand the issue that some have with the FAST or Pure Stock stuff.  It has certainly sparked new interest in the sport for some.  The receipt for low buck 10 second cars have been around for 30 years and I personally find it uninteresting.  Going to a bracket race and looking in the stands suggests to me that others feel the same way.

The FAST and Stock guys keep going faster and faster, and they drag the average Joe along with them by passing along what they learn, directly, or indirectly.  Sure, the few guys at the very top of the of the class are spend more than most of us ever will.  But we all benefit from their experimenting and pushing the envelope.  Today,  525 hp in a BB Mopar with UNMODIFIED exhaust manifolds (i.e. an 11 second car) is no big deal.  Those that believe that you need to port exhaust manifolds to within an inch of their life to support 600 hp are truly uninformed.  15 years ago, we all thought these things were impossible.  And to achieve these performance levels is not magic.  And although not cheap, it's not that expensive either if you are already planning to rebuild your engine.  It is more of a matter of just doing it right.

[Ghoste]

EXACTLY!!

[BLUE68RT4ME]

I don't understand the issue that some have with the FAST or Pure Stock stuff.  It has certainly sparked new interest in the sport for some.  The receipt for low buck 10 second cars have been around for 30 years and I personally find it uninteresting.  Going to a bracket race and looking in the stands suggests to me that others feel the same way.

The FAST and Stock guys keep going faster and faster, and they drag the average Joe along with them by passing along what they learn, directly, or indirectly.  Sure, the few guys at the very top of the of the class are spend more than most of us ever will.  But we all benefit from their experimenting and pushing the envelope.  Today,  525 hp in a BB Mopar with UNMODIFIED exhaust manifolds (i.e. an 11 second car) is no big deal.  Those that believe that you need to port exhaust manifolds to within an inch of their life to support 600 hp are truly uninformed.  15 years ago, we all thought these things were impossible.  And to achieve these performance levels is not magic.  And although not cheap, it's not that expensive either if you are already planning to rebuild your engine.  It is more of a matter of just doing it right.

Perfect example, the new found (maybe not so new but still growing) interest that F.A.S.T. has created has caused a ton of experimenting and engineering on how to make what we already have even better.  And to Ron's point, Porter is the guy who ground the cam for my motor.  I wanted it to look and sound stock but blow my Chevy buddies away.  He gave be exactly that!  It's awesome.  And he told me that extrude honing my manifolds was a waste of money.  They compared a pair of HP manifolds that were honed to a pair that were not on a 650 horse 340 on the dyno and they didn't see one horsepower difference.  It may very on different manifolds but it wasn't worth the investment of my money to possibly get 1-5 HP on something I'm only going to be puddle jumping on the weekends.  All the people that paid Porter to build their motors to the limits made it possible for me to have what I wanted for a much cheaper price!

[Cooter]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.Not sure if this is directed at me, but here goes. No, Not ALL of them are rich, but many of them are. I mean, you have to have money to own a HEMI anything. You are trying to make it seem like those FAST guys are all "Average Joes"..They are NOT.Round here, you either make it look good, or make it fly...NOT BOTH as these guys do...Sorry, but just like the rich guy that shows up to the car show and takes all the marbles when all he did was buy the car he's in, I refuse to support rich guys and their quest to make a Race car look like a street car. You choose to support it and that's great afterall, these types have to have the guys that follow them religiously, otherwise, it wouldn't be popular. Show me the receipts on some of those cars you seem to think the "Average Joe" can afford, and then we'll see who's got money and who's not. The Term "Average Joe" is realative as in some circles this person may only make $20K/year, and in other circles he may make $200K/year. Sure if I had the money I'd do it too, but I'd also understand that there would be those who are gonna  call it like it is like I am now. No, there isn't an official "Board", but we like to call the types like myself TRUE "Grass roots" people. Those trying to go fast without huge pockets that can experiment by buying fifteen different cams. We have one shot at it and it better fly right out the box, or it's N20 next. Hope this allows you to understand what a true "Average Joe" is referring to, as I know what it takes to run those numbers and it AIN'T WITH STOCK PARTS..

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.People who race cars evidently, in my opinion had to have some kind of finacial security in order to do it in the first place. Been doing it off and on for over 25 years and I can tell you it is a big money game now, not like it used to be. Let alone trying to make a race car appear stock.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...Don't even get me started on Professional racing...Look at all your hero's and tell me Chrysler didn't GIVE them racing parts...Tell me the likes of Ronnie Sox(Rest his soul) wasn't in the right place at the right time when the "little" guy could and DID win some races. Tell me that Sox and MArtin didn't get parts/cars "Donated" by Chrysler to beat on? Tell me that every time they blew an engine there was a tractor trailer load of fresh, new Hemi's waiting for them to install? Don't know bout you, but Chrysler hasn't offered to keep my Dart in racing parts yet, and I've asked. So, Professional racing can kiss my ass. Big money and if you don't have it, go home. I call Bullsh*t. But, as with anything else, there are those that will defend what's some call BS. I believe this is the case with this post I'm answering right now. FAST is for the "Well off" professional raceer, NOT the "Average Joe" ....Otherwise, a set of ported "906" heads for the avergae joe wouldn't cost anywhere near $5K...

[Ghoste]

If there was no professional racing, do you think the "average Joe's" could keep the tracks open or support a speed parts industry?  I think there is some trickle down here.  If there isnt an exciting series to get asses covering he seats in the stand, the tracks will die faster than they already are.  Without the guy testing 15 cams at his own expense we don't need to worry about getting one shot at choosing the right one because there will likely be only one, or maybe none.  I for one am glad Ronnie Sox got freebies from Chrysler.
I too do not have 5k to spend on 906 heads, but I'm happy to see that someone is still doiing work on them for someone else to test.  I'll never afford a Top Fuel car but I'm glad they still run them.  If someone new goes to the track and gets excited about drag racing by that nitro fire and thunder that they go home and drag that old car out from behind the barn to make a bracket, that to me is a good thing.

[firefighter3931]

I don't understand the issue that some have with the FAST or Pure Stock stuff.  It has certainly sparked new interest in the sport for some.  The receipt for low buck 10 second cars have been around for 30 years and I personally find it uninteresting.  Going to a bracket race and looking in the stands suggests to me that others feel the same way.

The FAST and Stock guys keep going faster and faster, and they drag the average Joe along with them by passing along what they learn, directly, or indirectly.  Sure, the few guys at the very top of the of the class are spend more than most of us ever will.  But we all benefit from their experimenting and pushing the envelope.  Today,  525 hp in a BB Mopar with UNMODIFIED exhaust manifolds (i.e. an 11 second car) is no big deal.  Those that believe that you need to port exhaust manifolds to within an inch of their life to support 600 hp are truly uninformed.  15 years ago, we all thought these things were impossible.  And to achieve these performance levels is not magic.  And although not cheap, it's not that expensive either if you are already planning to rebuild your engine.  It is more of a matter of just doing it right.

Perfect example, the new found (maybe not so new but still growing) interest that F.A.S.T. has created has caused a ton of experimenting and engineering on how to make what we already have even better.  And to Ron's point, Porter is the guy who ground the cam for my motor.  I wanted it to look and sound stock but blow my Chevy buddies away.  He gave be exactly that!  It's awesome.  And he told me that extrude honing my manifolds was a waste of money.  They compared a pair of HP manifolds that were honed to a pair that were not on a 650 horse 340 on the dyno and they didn't see one horsepower difference.  It may very on different manifolds but it wasn't worth the investment of my money to possibly get 1-5 HP on something I'm only going to be puddle jumping on the weekends.  All the people that paid Porter to build their motors to the limits made it possible for me to have what I wanted for a much cheaper price!

Some good points in both of these posts 

The R&D done by Dwayne and HPMike trickles down to the rest of us choosing to build this type of car.  The guys at the very top of the class are extremely competitive and yes they spend lots of cash pushing the envelope but most are in it for the fun and comraderie. Satisfaction is derived from building something that does what it isn't supposed to be able to. It becomes a personal challenge to get the most out of it and let the times fall where they may. 


Mark, great car ! Kudos to you for staying the course and following your dream....it takes a lot of will power and perserverance to follow through. I know because it took me 7 years to build mine the way i wanted to. Winners never quit and quitters never win. 

Not sure if this is directed at me, but here goes. No, Not ALL of them are rich, but many of them are. I mean, you have to have money to own a HEMI anything. You are trying to make it seem like those FAST guys are all "Average Joes"..They are NOT.Round here, you either make it look good, or make it fly...NOT BOTH as these guys do...Sorry, but just like the rich guy that shows up to the car show and takes all the marbles when all he did was buy the car he's in, I refuse to support rich guys and their quest to make a Race car look like a street car. You choose to support it and that's great afterall, these types have to have the guys that follow them religiously, otherwise, it wouldn't be popular. Show me the receipts on some of those cars you seem to think the "Average Joe" can afford, and then we'll see who's got money and who's not. The Term "Average Joe" is realative as in some circles this person may only make $20K/year, and in other circles he may make $200K/year. Sure if I had the money I'd do it too, but I'd also understand that there would be those who are gonna  call it like it is like I am now. No, there isn't an official "Board", but we like to call the types like myself TRUE "Grass roots" people. Those trying to go fast without huge pockets that can experiment by buying fifteen different cams. We have one shot at it and it better fly right out the box, or it's N20 next. Hope this allows you to understand what a true "Average Joe" is referring to, as I know what it takes to run those numbers and it AIN'T WITH STOCK PARTS..

Cooter, i can sense your frustration in this post and understand perfectly where you're coming from. 

Not all quick cars have big dollar motors under the hood. How about an iron head 383 with a cast crank, stock rods, unported iron heads, flat tappet solid (non roller), Performer RPM intake, Holley 850, Cheapo $200 headers, SS leaf springs and 83/4 out back.... running 11.20's @ 3700lbs. Sound impossible ? It's not....Dwayne built it and raced the car (68 Satellite) and has a box of timeslips to prove it. Geez, this car still has a 5/16 fuel line and mechanical fuel pump....not very hi tech  This car is about as close to "Grass Roots" as you can get. 

It's all in the combination....allways has been 


Ron

[Cooter]

If there was no professional racing, do you think the "average Joe's" could keep the tracks open or support a speed parts industry?  I think there is some trickle down here.  If there isnt an exciting series to get asses covering he seats in the stand, the tracks will die faster than they already are.  Without the guy testing 15 cams at his own expense we don't need to worry about getting one shot at choosing the right one because there will likely be only one, or maybe none.  I for one am glad Ronnie Sox got freebies from Chrysler.
I too do not have 5k to spend on 906 heads, but I'm happy to see that someone is still doiing work on them for someone else to test.  I'll never afford a Top Fuel car but I'm glad they still run them.  If someone new goes to the track and gets excited about drag racing by that nitro fire and thunder that they go home and drag that old car out from behind the barn to make a bracket, that to me is a good thing.

Certainly not, all the drag strips would go back to what they were Before Big money hit. PRIVATELY owned like the little guy down in the south STILL OPERATING A small time strip. Not looking to go backwards by no means, but everybody seems to want to think that if you disagree with anybody having huge money in a sport and look at it as a bad thing because ultimatelywhen the big money shows up, the little guys get pushed out. most will follow and not stand up for the "Little guys" because the "Little guys" don't pay and bills for the rest likethe big money guys do...I for one, refuse to knuckle under and proclaim that big money coming around is a good thing I don't care how  many excuses are given to the contrary.

As for the "Low dollar" 383 running low 11's? Sure, but how much will that cost the average joe to build? How many cams/carb's/intakes/etc. were bought before that final "Cool factor" combo was figured out? Show me the reciepts.
I have no problem telling what I have in my junk. $15K in the whole car. Spent right? Spent wrong? Who knows, but it's spent none the less. MY term "Grass Roots" and others seem to differ. AGAIN, let's see how fast some of these guys can go on knowledge alone when they have a spending cap...Factory Stock THIS! when you have $15K to spend in the whole project, we'll see who's knowledgable and who's just throwing money at it.

Same thing with the Superbee I mentioned earlier..Sure, it's impressive, but will cost the average Joe around $25-30K to "Duplicate" this combo...Not cheap IMO., but certainly cheap in others eyes. This FAST crap is a gimmic at best, otherwise why not just state that your 1970 RoadRunner Drag car,with a Hemi runs deep in the 9's?
No, that wouldn't have the same "Appeal to the Average Joe" as one that appears stock doing just that..There are those that see through this. The ones that clearly cannot are those in the stands as they actually believe a FACTORY STOCK "Appearing" 1970 Roadrunner will run these numbers. (When if it were explained to them about how that isn't a 426, it's a 600 C.I. stroker that came out  of dudes race car the week before, with it's 15:1 compression and a roller cam that rivals most Pro stock cams today.)These are the ones I see on here wondering why after spending huge money on a Stroker build, the dyno numbers weren't what they thought they were supposed to be...

[firefighter3931]

As for the "Low dollar" 383 running low 11's? Sure, but how much will that cost the average joe to build? 

Actually, not very much ; stock cast crank, stock rods from a late model 400 and the pistons were NHRA legal (heavy) TRW replacements. Nothing fancy. The heads were cleaned up with new hardware (stock 2.08/1.74 valves) and no work on the ports....they flowed 233cfm max. Anybody could easily duplicate these economically and get more if they used the MP porting templates and spent a few hours with a die-grinder. Those mods (free) are worth an easy 50hp 

The RPM intake is an off the shelf piece and so is the 850dp carb and Hooker Comp headers. The only non-shelf item is the cam which is a custom grind but if you wanted one just like it all you would have to do is call a guy like Dwayne and have him spec it for you. That service is cheap and he only charges a few bucks more than you could buy one off the shelf. Yet YOU would benefit from years of knowledge & experience and not have to do lots of experimenting. 

The point is....there is a ton of information out there to help the novice "get it right" the first time. You don't need fancy parts or high dollar builds to have a fun car that will run hard. You do have to be willing to listen and trust others experience. 

Fwiw, that little 383 made right around 500hp....not bad for the sum of parts in this combo 

Say you took that 383 and dropped it into a 3200lb Dart ; you'd have a 10.70-10.80 second ride on the cheap and it wouldn't have cost much to build. 


Ron

[cdr]

thats 460 rwhp,i am impressed,and i am not being sarcastic 

[FLG]

Guess I should have explained a little better.. don't dislike the ppl spending big.money just hate the ppl that do but don't help anyone else in the hobby

[Budnicks]

I know what the FAST series is, I wasn't sure if this post was directed at anyone in particular or not. I would love to have a set of high flowing, reliable iron heads.

c00nhunterjoe Amen to that brother, so would I.... I think HeyOldGuy was trying to see if any of the F.A.S.T. guys were here on this board &/or if they were willing to experiment & keep his head porting design proprietary & be able to do some testing with some of his very obviously, very good flowing iron 906 casting cylinder heads.... I don't know why the post turned into the rich vs the poor thing, or a too thin wall over ported, durability issue, when people know absolutely nothing about these actual heads, he is talking about.... Or any of the other side arguments, that are going on here... It's a post about allot of time, knowledge/experience, spent on a set of great flowing cylinder heads & allot of work spent on a set of cast iron 906 heads, why is everyone so down on the subject... Maybe hes trying to help... Maybe not... BUT, You should be asking the guy, how he did it ??... &/or how you could achieve the same results ??... how many sets of heads did he go thru to figure this stuff out ??.... Instead for some reason, it always gets way off topic &/or becomes some pissing contest or about someone or something else, vaguely related... Do any of you know this guy ??... I do, he's a great guy & very knowledgeable guy & he know what he's talking about... Give him a chance, "You could actually, learn something here maybe", even if you don't think you need to learn anything or think you are a know it all or expert on the subject, try being open minded.... Sorry  

[Ghoste]

I don't think everyone is down on the subject are they?  I thought most were pretty impressed.

[Budnicks]

I don't think everyone is down on the subject are they?  I thought most were pretty impressed.

I guess, some were, maybe that was a bad choice of words... Have a nice day...

[Cooter]

Everything I stated had in some way or another to do with the FAST series of racing. Maybe not a set of $5K "906" heads, but none the less.

I don't think anybody actually knew what the hell the actual topic of this thread was. Maybe a chest beating session? I don't know. 

People's opinions differ even if it may be a friend  of yours who you think might be the best damn engine man ever. The problem comes in when you exclaim that everybody who posted in said thread that they are being "Off topic" because of their opinion about a guy/friend you know differs from your own.

[Budnicks]

For a qualified big block F.A.S.T. competitor that thinks they could use a better head, I will hand deliver a pair of 906 heads to be tested on your engine. On the track or the dyno, run your engine, pull the heads and I will place a set of 906 heads on your engine. Then you bolt everything back down and run the engine again, we'll see if there is any improvement.

I don't have any maximum effort heads ready at this time but these heads flow, 292 cfm @ .500", 323 cfm @ .600" and 332 cfm @ .700".

Box stock Edelbrock Victors on our bench flow, 277 cfm @ .500", 305 cfm @ .600" and 324 cfm @ .700".

There will be no flow testing or pictures taken of the heads. We will put them back in the boxes and go home. Unless you think they're worth keeping.

Yes, Maybe Just a little well deserved chest beating... maybe I'm just too sensitive... yea right....

[mauve66]

i guess its my fault cuase i think what they do is cool, i don't care that they spent $$XXXXX to figure out what works and what doesn't, i like the fact that the car still looks stock.  i don't care if they trailer it to the track or not. its all the little things to get that power to the ground in a useful way. sure i know the motor is a stroker, the heads are ported, the exhaust manifolds are extrude honed, the bumper brackets are sluminum instead of steel, any extra metal in the car is gone, if their model is capable they swap to a scooped hood, full interior, etc etc,. 
i go to the local midnight mayhem, 300+ "average joes" show up and its amazing what they can't do with slicks, scoops, open pipes, leaf blowers duct taped to the carb, gutted interior, etc, etc.
this thread was started to solicite business to show the man's skills and see if there was a market for an item
sorry i said those FAST racers were doing somehting i thought was cool

oh yeah, until they started this series noone was making sticky stock APPEARING tires or extruding manifolds (only headers), the trickle down works for everyone, just not democrats when the republicans are doing it................

[BLUE68RT4ME]

this thread was started to solicite business to show the man's skills and see if there was a market for an item
sorry i said those FAST racers were doing somehting i thought was cool

oh yeah, until they started this series noone was making sticky stock APPEARING tires or extruding manifolds (only headers), the trickle down works for everyone, just not democrats when the republicans are doing it................

AMEN!  To HEYOLDGUY, sorry if we stole your thread but in a way some of us were showing support.  I can't speak to the quality of your work because I've never met you but I appreciate everyone that goes for just a little more and I hope you developed something above and beyond.

As for Mauve66, I agree whole heartedly.  Trickle down works in several aspects... unless you get confused by  facts!   

[heyoldguy]

Must say, I have appreciated all the posts in this thread. All opinions are valuable and all should be considered. I realize that when I start a thread, it will go where it goes and I have no control over it.

We have had some success in porting cylinder heads. I KNEW that in some circles we would be ridiculed for posting the 906 flows we believe we have achieved. I was right, so I offered to prove it. I would have liked to sell some $5000 dollar cylinder heads, but never believed it would happen. Again, I was right. I just offered to let them test them on their engine. No takers. I really don't blame them.

It's okay we believe in ourselves.

I was hoping to prove to the nonbelievers like we did once before. When others in our class were making 585 horsepower with their RPM headed 451 ci engines, we were asked what we were going to get with our 451 the next day. We said 700 hp. There was a lot of laughing that evening. Nobody could get 700 horsepower from a RPM headed 451 on pump gas. They were right, we didn't get 700. It was 723 HP.

Chest beating? You betcha!

I like what a Captain in the Army Corp of Engineers once told me, "He that tooteth not his own horn, the same shall not be tooted!"

[cdr]

Must say, I have appreciated all the posts in this thread. All opinions are valuable and all should be considered. I realize that when I start a thread, it will go where it goes and I have no control over it.

We have had some success in porting cylinder heads. I KNEW that in some circles we would be ridiculed for posting the 906 flows we believe we have achieved. I was right, so I offered to prove it. I would have liked to sell some $5000 dollar cylinder heads, but never believed it would happen. Again, I was right. I just offered to let them test them on their engine. No takers. I really don't blame them.

It's okay we believe in ourselves.

I was hoping to prove to the nonbelievers like we did once before. When others in our class were making 585 horsepower with their RPM headed 451 ci engines, we were asked what we were going to get with our 451 the next day. We said 700 hp. There was a lot of laughing that evening. Nobody could get 700 horsepower from a RPM headed 451 on pump gas. They were right, we didn't get 700. It was 723 HP.

Chest beating? You betcha!

I like what a Captain in the Army Corp of Engineers once told me, "He that tooteth not his own horn, the same shall not be tooted!"

i will say this, i dont doubt what you can do ,i have been in a similar boat ,when you kick others butt with what looks like less,apparently you have found the right set up,i am out of the porting businesses,but still do my own stuff,still workin on my super stealth's,R & D ON HEADS & cams is a blast,i wish you the best------charlie keel   

[Budnicks]

this thread was started to solicite business to show the man's skills and see if there was a market for an item
sorry i said those FAST racers were doing somehting i thought was cool

oh yeah, until they started this series noone was making sticky stock APPEARING tires or extruding manifolds (only headers), the trickle down works for everyone, just not democrats when the republicans are doing it................

AMEN!  To HEYOLDGUY, sorry if we stole your thread but in a way some of us were showing support.  I can't speak to the quality of your work because I've never met you but I appreciate everyone that goes for just a little more and I hope you developed something above and beyond.

As for Mauve66, I agree whole heartedly.  Trickle down works in several aspects... unless you get confused by  facts!   

Thanks guys, I whole heartedly agree with both of you, I wasn't really meaning to be accusing anyone of anything, that I don't do myself, I just wanted people to have an open mind & it looks like many do... Thanks & sorry for any confusion or if I hurt anyones feeling, I just want people to be a little more open minded, for the sake of some of the people that aren't in the "inner circle" of this forums regular posters... mostly good guys all arround...

[Ghoste]

An inner circle?  I never knew about that, man I'm always getting dumped on by the cool kids.

[Budnicks]

An inner circle?  I never knew about that, man I'm always getting dumped on by the cool kids.

Me too... Yep an "inner circle", the percieved "in crowd" or "the cool guys", theres another old quote for ya...   It ment the regular posters here  ...   not anyone specific  ... 

[Cooter]

Wow.....Hmmmm, and how does all this talk about an "Inner Circle" fit into the $5K "906" FAST racing heads again?

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are in the inner circle you get a 10% discount. 

[Cooter]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

[firefighter3931]

Cooter,

Nobody in FAST is running a set of 5k 906 heads...typically they run in the 3k range and that includes all the hardware ; Stainless nailhead valves, lightwieght retainers, top shelf roller cam springs etc...

Not all of the cars in this class are "all out" builds but those at the top of the heap go the extra distance. These are not street cars by any stretch of the imagination....they are purpose built showcars that race and have to be treated as such.....you probaly won't see a FAST car out for a sunday cruise 

The trickle down applies to parts selection for those wishing to run with factory heads, factory intake/exhaust manifolds etc...The cam profiles have evolved as a result of this type of racing and that technology can be applied to more street friendly builds.  

I'm sure OldGuy's heads make excellent power.   Durability has allways been an issue with iron heads and allways will be. If he were to build a FAST car and campaign it for a season without a head failure and it performed as good as the best in the class there might be some guys interested in his product. But, there have been several head failures over the years so it's understandable that many are gun shy to lay out that amount of cash for something that has a history of failure. We're talking 45-50 yr old castings that are being pushed waaaaay beyond their original design parameters and expected to live in the harshest of envirionments. 

The BB wedge head was originally designed as a passenger car casting, not a race head. Pushing old iron to those levels will eventually lead to failure. You can only hog out so much material before the casting's structural integrity will be compromised. Couple that with a high 14-15:1 compression ratio that is trying to literally push the heads off the block and the results are inevitable. FAST racing is a niche market and the customer base is small. You can build better power for a lot less money and it will be much more reliable...but that won't fit into the class rules. It's a unique class of racing, not unlike the "stocker" class where the envelope is constantly being pushed by those at the top of the food chain.  



Ron

[heyoldguy]

It's interesting reading the various view points.

One thing I don't believe that has been pointed out is, I was asked for a price for our "best flowing" 906 heads. The best 906 heads we have approach 350 cfm. There is no CNC program for these heads, it is all hand work. Our "best heads" are all balanced in flows throughout the lift range, we don't just hack them out and whatever each port achieves from it's turn with the burrs is okay. Each head may be back on the flow bench 50, 100, maybe more times before it is finished. The valves jobs are worked in stages as we track the flows and each head may receive 5 or 6 valve jobs during the process. It takes about 120 hours for the "best heads". I have been told by a porter of high reputation there is no way he wants to spend 120 hours on a set of heads, and I am welcome to all those types of jobs. We don't have a burning desire to work on a pair of heads for 120 hours either. But if you want our best, that is what it takes. Others may be able to do 320, 330, 340 cfm in less time and I am pleased for them.

How does this trickle down? Maybe some of what we learn through all the excessive hours on the high end, sneaks into the work on the less expensive.

I spend 12-15 hours a day at the shop and personally can't afford any racing at this time in my life, F.A.S.T., bracket, nothing. So I can't spend 120 hours on a pair of heads and give them away for less than I have into them. If they aren't worth it, they aren't worth it! That is okay with me, we'll do something else and still be happy!

[cdr]

2 years ago i had about 60 hours in a set of stock twin cam harley heads & individual runner intake,got 329 cfm @.650,did i charge enough? no,will i do it again?if the price is right yes,people seem to think its no big deal porting heads,to do it right it is ALOT of work and the rewards are awesome

[mauve66]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

so for 5K you'll build anyone here a motor that is reliable and can get a "drag car" (B body-not some hacked A body) down the 1/4 mile in 9 secs, which would translate into high 10 sec for a full dress street car??

i have yet to see a motor less than 9K that will barely get you to the 11 sec bracket in a full dress street car, and by street car i don't mean something you can barely get to the track and absolutely never drive to work or cruise on sundays

[BSB67]

people seem to think its no big deal porting heads,to do it right it is ALOT of work and the rewards are awesome

Hell, I've spent a lot of time porting heads, and that was not doing it right.

Seriously, I think you're right, most don't appreciate what it takes.  First, to figure what works, and then to repeat the effort in an ugly, messy, laborious job.

The guy that I used 20 years ago ran a small shop, and a few SS car were campained out of his shop, including a BB Mopar. He probably had a dozen 906/915 castings that he worked on just for port shape development and valve grind.  He developed several different port shapes depending on the lift.   I honestly don't know how he made any money.   

[firefighter3931]

Anybody who has ported heads can appreciate all that is involved. Especially old cast iron stuff....talk about labor intensive not to mention nerve wracking ! Who hasn't hit water on a core shifted casting ? 

I remember years ago doing a bowl blend on a machine shop fresh set of 452's and everything was going well until i kissed a seat with the burr.  Back to the machine shop they went ! 

Hats Off to all the guys who undertake this type of work professionally....it really is a labor of love and not all that lucrative. 



Ron

[BSB67]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

so for 5K you'll build anyone here a motor that is reliable and can get a "drag car" (B body-not some hacked A body) down the 1/4 mile in 9 secs, which would translate into high 10 sec for a full dress street car??

i have yet to see a motor less than 9K that will barely get you to the 11 sec bracket in a full dress street car, and by street car i don't mean something you can barely get to the track and absolutely never drive to work or cruise on sundays

One of the things that is totally lost on me in this thread is: exactly what is everyone including in their discussion of the "cost".  Is it the engine?, with or without intake/exhaust?, includes drive train?, or suspension too?, does it presume that you're starting with no hp parts what so ever,  how about the safety equipment?

The engine can easily be less than half of the cost of an 11 second street car., depending on what you are starting with.

[mauve66]

i would guess 40-60% of us don't get to start with a motor we can use


5K motor is oil pan to carb, everything for the motor to work
pulleys don't matter
headers/exhaust dont matter
air cleaner don't matter
fuel ignition and air is all an engine needs, ok, oil and water but whats that cost, 25 oil, 25 antifreeze,
radiator is part of car already
suspension is part of car cost
trans is external drivetrain cost
a 5K motor is a 5K motor
stroker kit, 1995-2300.00 + shipping
eddy heads, 1495.00 + shipping
block, 400.00
machine work, 500.00+ unknown
labor, 1000.00
gaskets, 150.00??
aftermarket balancer, 150-300.00??
timing chain, $100-350.00??
cam/lifters/valvetrain, $500.00+
oil pump, i have no idea, $100??
dist/wires/plugs, $250.00+
intake, $250+  $100 swap meet part
carb $250+
fuel pump, $100
oil pan, a stock one will probably starve the motor but we'll go with it anyway $25 swap meet part
taking everything on the low end and assuming you've already got the swap meet stuff
$6990 and i bet i'm forgetting something like tax, hoses, etc
not everyone has the skills/aptitude/space/to build their own or the willingness to risk $7000 on yourself not forgetting one critical item or measurement
those of you who can do your own, don't forget your time is money and just cause you happen to have certain parts around doesn' make them free or cheaper than retail
i dispise those article, 11 sec car for 10K, oh yeah, we had this item and swapped for this item so the cost is zero, no its not

[mauve66]

i'm not knocking anyone who can do this but most can't, we need others to break ground so as it gets main stream it gets cheaper, do you think those guys in the 70-80's welding cranks for strokers got them done for what a whole stroker kit costs now days??
i have yet to find a reputable shop that can get my motor done for less than $7k, and the cheapest was a generic shop that doesn't do many mopars, and i've always been told to stay away from them do to the "mopar way of doing things"
so i'm left with $8K motor and i'm not risking my memory on puttng it together

[Cooter]

Sorry, but getting back to the original thread, a $5K set of cylinder heads kinda proves my point about being rich to run that FAST series. $5K? That about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part. Not saying Jim Doesn't do a wonderful job, but one can't say anything about "Trickle down" if all of it stays up top where the $5K heads guy are. My idea of Trickling down and there's differ I guess.

so for 5K you'll build anyone here a motor that is reliable and can get a "drag car" (B body-not some hacked A body) down the 1/4 mile in 9 secs, which would translate into high 10 sec for a full dress street car??

i have yet to see a motor less than 9K that will barely get you to the 11 sec bracket in a full dress street car, and by street car i don't mean something you can barely get to the track and absolutely never drive to work or cruise on sundays

Maybe I shoulda put a period between where I stated "That's about my whole engine build for us "Less well off" folks[Insert Period here] that can only run in the 9's with "Drag cars" that certainly look the part." I got news for you, you must believe that these FAST guys actually cruise a car with Iron heads ported within an inch of their lives. My point again, To RELIABLY drive a REAL street car that runs in the 9's is all but impossible. I've tried it. Sh*t breaks. I like to be able to pick up my valve.piston, etc. from the local auto parts store, not waiting on some "propreitary"/"Prototype" from somehwere out in California. MY own Dart in the high 10's is a ROYAL PITA to drive on the street, in REAL street time. I make no excuses, it is what it is. But, to say these guys actually drive 'em is a bit bold if I may say so.

Never meant I could run in the 9's for $5K, only that I could build an entire engine for $5K. Will it run in the high 10's? Sure has... Been doing it for over 13 years. (Since 1998)...Of course, it's a hacked A-body. Point is, when you start limiting yourself to appearing stock, you will spend the hell outta some Cash to run what I still consider "Pro-Stock" numbers with an otherwise "Stock" car. You gotta make a set of STOCK IRON HEADS perform like a set of Indy aluminum heads. That costs as you see here.
I was simply referring to the cost of a set of heads these FAST guys are willing to invest in to run in the 9's and APPEAR stock, where us "Lesser" folks will build an A-body(Although, I'm sure there are some B-body guys willing to try it out) that is by your standards "Hacked", but never-the-less, it still runs the numbers for way less, and doesn't have a set of $5K Aluminum RACE heads on it. There's a REASON my car looks like a "Drag type" car. Because I'm not limited to "appearing" stock.. While I don't have my rear tires that are DOT's with Redlines painted on them, or aluminum copies of factory wheels.
I did it with a junkyard stroker 440, with healthy shot of N20, and iron heads, but I'm certain it could be done on motor alone by someone with clearly more choices and $$ to spend on camshafts/heads/cranks/pistons/etc.
The engine in my own Dart right now only cost me $3500.00 to build 14 years ago, but giving inflation and what not, I'm betting the same set up would cost around $5K today.

You pointed out earlier that you can't believe these FAST guys can go that fast when the rest have "Drag" type cars barely in the 11's...Well, this was my reasoning why when I said it isn't hard to do when you can afford a set of $5K dollar heads... That are by all rights, "Voo-Doo" as you are not allowed to see what's been done and how..No trickle down there otherwise, Mr. Laroy I believe his name is, wouldn't be selling anymore $5K heads. Soon as someone figured out his "Proprietary" set up and what had to be welded up and epoxied, then everybody would be doing it like they are now in the backyard with a die grinder. Are my heads "pro" ported? Nope. Coulkdn't see spending $400.00 on a port job. Paid it once, learned how to duplicate the job, and been doing my own ever since.
Home ported by ME. Will they flow anywhere NEAR Mr. Laroy's? Nope....But they didn't cost me $5K either, and For most people's money, when you have a "Stock" appearing car running in the 9's at the local track and a "Drag "type Dart running high 10's, most will look at both and wonder how much $$ it took to run those numbers when the "Drag" car couldn't....Just like with the Imports and theior 2.0 liter engines outrunning 500 C.I. Big Block strokers...Not that hard to do if you have the huge money. Not alot of money? Build a bigger engine, put it in a lighter car, and Spray it to run the same numbers as the big dollar guys.

[mauve66]

i never said they drive them on the street, i said they appear stock and and are reliable, i don't think they tear the motor down every 5-10 runs to check the bearings and such, as nice as the cars are they would get tore up in one season, just cause mistakes happen when your taking a motor in and out or even you just take the heads and oil pan off, and then your still not seeing everything you need to in a motor that's running within an inch of its life

when i say a "hacked a-body", its not derogatory, that's just what i mean, its cut/removed/lightened so it can run that number, it better, its 1000 lbs lighter than a full dress b body which is what the top mopar guys are running,  i don't follow the series every year but the ones i remember seeing were all in b bodies with maybe 1 e body from that guy they call Mr. sixpack, but he has an a-12 car also.

a hacked b body should be able to get into the 10's easily, BSB67 has a full dress 1st gen that will do 11.68, if he gutted it, he would be in the high 10.00's but the fun part is seeing a full stock appearing, street legal APPEARING car do things they don't APPEAR to be able to do, and weren't close to being able to do when they were young, no matter what our "memories" tell us

just 'cause these guys have money i don't begrudge them that, he's got the money but not the skill/background/learning ability, buy it, i would
i don't know jack about turbos/blowers, but if i had money i sure would be buying one and learning about it, i don't think there is such a thing as too fast, after all, regardless of what the police tell us,
SPEED DOESN'T CAUSE ACCIDENTS, lack of experience, vehicle capability and driving conditions cause accidents

[Cooter]

Bottom line is this.....It takes money to go fast....I would rather talk to the guy without the $5K heads that ran high tens than the guy with a set of $5K iron heads in the 9's.  Obviously, throwing money at an enigne/car will make it fly without any brains...It takes a certain amount more to be able to wave at the guy in the 9's through the windshield, in the other lane, with a cheaper car/engine. A little more smarts/thinking, and the cheaper car is going around all that big dollar stuff.

[Ghoste]

They're cool AND they get a discount??  If they ever invent time travel I am SO going with those guys to smoke cigarettes in the high school parking lot. Clearly the payoff later in life is worth it.

[Cooter]

Another thing I can't believe is some actually think these guys cars actually weigh the stock weight. I mean, if they are running DOT tires with Redlines painted on 'em, CRAZY iron/high dollar heads, Stroker cranks, Aftermarket blocks, etc. What the hell makes one think that that "Stock Appearing" K-frame isn't made out of RZ5 magnesium? Aluminum? Or how bout some space age Carbon fiber?
What's to say that "Stock Appearing" A-833 "appears to be Cast iron?

I don't buy it. I know what it takes to run that fast with a true stock car and these guys got something else going on. There, I'm done with this thread. Sometimes, you just gotta say when. Geesh.

[Budnicks]

It's not always about the money "sometimes", it's knowing what to do & were to do it, where to spend the money wisely & "sometimes" it's just a shit load of time on a flow bench or under the car scraping off undercoating, chassis set ups, weighing the car & putting/moving weight where it will work for you or what ever, if your a racer of any kind, you know it's about time spent on every little minute details, hard work & the proper combos, more than money "sometimes", if not most times... It's about the knowledge & how you apply it, to make your combo work, not just money... But it doesn't hurt to have money either, but just throwing money at something, doesn't make it f.a.s.t. 

[Ghoste]

Exactly, there is a lot of effort put into those cars.  Cooter you are right about weight but I don't know that anyone is using magnesium K frames.  I don't know they aren't either.  I do know many or most of those cars only have the drivers seat as something you can actually sit in and there are a lot of instrument panels that are just the faces, stuff like that.  There may very well be all sorts of carbon fiber too.
Honestly I am more impressed by the guys who take the time to remove all of the springs in their seats to lighten the car than someone who just installs a giant shot of nitrous oxide and calls it a day.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I'm most impressed by the guys that run big heavy cars that are not stripped and gutted and pull ridiculous times. Heyoldguy's work reminds me of my friend mark. He may drive a chevy, but the end result is the same. He has a 65 chevy wagon that is full metal bodied, full interiored, fully dashed...yada yada yada, you get the idea. It runs on 93 from any gas station, its his true daily driver. You pop the hood and it looks like any other 454 with iron heads but it runs 10.0s on motor hanging the wheels. Heads are everything!

[sixpack70]

I didn't see it on here, but check out the FAST rules. They are actually meant so everyone can have fun. Yes, the top guys will be spending some money to go all out. They have everyone run elimination rounds until they get the top 8. The top 8 run heads up. Everyone else will run against people with similar times to them for I think it was 3 runs. That way you are racing someone about your skill and about your power. I looked into trying to participate this year, but I don't have a vehicle close enough to stock or restored enough to do it. Also, everything I have read says that they are pretty helpful for the newcomers. They may not tell you their cam profile, but they will tell you how to hook up on stock bias ply tires.

[Ghoste]

Agreed.  I haven't read the rules myself but I do know a couple of guys who participate in it and they are definitely bucks down kind of racers.  They may not get time in the magazines but they have as much fun as the top dogs.

[cdr]

today i read the rules,i like,but they dont run down here in the south

[AirborneSilva]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

The other side of this is that the people spending money to develop better and faster are the ones who make it cheaper and easier for others to acquire later.  That's how it works.  And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...

Well said 

[Budnicks]

Is everyone that has a more beautiful or faster car rich?  Is everyone that makes more than you greedy?  How do you really make these types of decisions?  Is there a board that advises on this?  I don't know but I realized a while back that the things you have in life are determined by the things you're willing to give up.  I'm done being jealous of people who have nicer things than me.  I have chosen my path and they have chosen theirs.  Actually, in most cases I am happy for them if they are able to have and enjoy something they are passionate about.

Many people who race cars have decided that they are all in and took the chance of loosing everything.  Others may be more fortunate and have had the money to do it but hell, wouldn't you if you had it???  Have you sold yourself short on your dreams because you feared you might make someone else upset?  If so, you're only living a sliver of the life you could be.

I grew up dirt poor in a town of about 120 in South Dakota.  My parents together never broke the $20k/yr barrier once during the 80's.  I don't have much but I do have my Charger.  It was a childhood dream.  I have about as much money into it as I make in a year.  That doesn't mean I'm rich and it doesn't mean it's paid for.  What it means is that I sacrificed many other things to have it and I still am in order to keep it.  Now that it's done, I probably won't meet 10 Chargers on the road that are as nice as I feel mine is but then those people sacrificed what they determined they could in order to get the car they have as I did for mine.  It is awesome that they were able to achieve getting it.

The other side of this is that the people spending money to develop better and faster are the ones who make it cheaper and easier for others to acquire later.  That's how it works.  And as for NASCAR, if it wasn't for all those rules making every car the same the cheapest car to race in 1969 and 1970 would not have been outlawed.  The Daytona's and Superbirds were the fastest cars build and yet the investment to get them to where they ended up was far less than what the competition spent to try to get a whiff of their exhaust before they hit the finish line.  So... just sayin...

Well said 

Amen, very well said, fellow Mopar brother 

[dangina]

As for the "Low dollar" 383 running low 11's? Sure, but how much will that cost the average joe to build? 

Actually, not very much ; stock cast crank, stock rods from a late model 400 and the pistons were NHRA legal (heavy) TRW replacements. Nothing fancy. The heads were cleaned up with new hardware (stock 2.08/1.74 valves) and no work on the ports....they flowed 233cfm max. Anybody could easily duplicate these economically and get more if they used the MP porting templates and spent a few hours with a die-grinder. Those mods (free) are worth an easy 50hp 




Ron

where can one get these templates

[cdr]

go to this link
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEQQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jegs.com%2Fp%2FMopar-Performance%2FMopar-Performance-Porting-Templates%2F1175475%2F10002%2F-1&ei=OZg9UKi-DOSW2gXo-YH4Dw&usg=AFQjCNFqTFmvxs8MTpF9sRiD2JoA0DqOuw&cad=rja

[tan top]

Anybody who has ported heads can appreciate all that is involved. Especially old cast iron stuff....talk about labor intensive not to mention nerve wracking ! Who hasn't hit water on a core shifted casting ? 

I remember years ago doing a bowl blend on a machine shop fresh set of 452's and everything was going well until i kissed a seat with the burr.  Back to the machine shop they went ! 

Hats Off to all the guys who undertake this type of work professionally....it really is a labor of love and not all that lucrative. 



Ron

thats soo true   ,  i even want as far as having  four  die grinders &  one dremmel with different carbide burr bits  , stones & paper rolls , on the go  , got sick of changing them
  lifes too short  , to do them your self IMO
  done a good few sets  , also spent 2 weeks  ( week each head ) (after work  & weekends ) on  my own 906 heads ,   also same on my 452s

[Budnicks]

True Professional Head porters... You have to give big praise to these guys who do this stuff, day in day out, it's loud, dirty, messy work & especially when they do them correctly, no just hogging them out blindly, like so many people do, guys like Jim/HeyOldGuy are true artists, when it come to cylinder heads & making the most out of them.... As a person who has done probably 100 cylinder heads, over the years, I can respect the level of the heads Jim/HeyOldGuy turns out... Thanks Jim

[Ghoste]

One part science, one part dark art, and one part voodoo with all of it a closely guarded secret.  You are so right, the true pro's deserve real credit for the work they can do.

[Budnicks]

One part science, one part dark art, and one part voodoo with all of it a closely guarded secret.  You are so right, the true pro's deserve real credit for the work they can do.