440 hemi?

[Stormhammer]

a guy I know keeps arguing with me on there being such thing as a 440 Hemi ( bored out? ) - I keep arguing with him that there's no such thing - that its only a 426

he's also stubborn on believing that you can fit hemi heads on a 440

so post away, I gotta prove him that he's wrong 

also something about using a 440 block to make a 426


also explain WHY ( he wont let up till he gets the explaination )

[Wakko]

Show him a picture of hemi heads compared to BB heads, obviously WAY different in dimensions.   You can also direct him here:


http://www.thehemi.com/engines.php


Feel free to use this macro, too.

[Troy]

There are hemi heads for a 440. There were many threads about this on the previous site. I think the company is Stage V or something but I'm too tired to figure it out right now. There was an article on a "budget Hemi" in one of the major magazines but I have it bookmarked on my other computer. Basically, you have to machine the RB block to fit the new heads and it isn't a simple bolt on. It isn't a whole lot cheaper than building a Hemi as far as I can tell (the expensive part on a Hemi is the valvetrain). I also haven't seen where the performance would be any better than a real Hemi.

Oh, the factory never made such a thing - it's purely aftermarket.

Troy

[Stormhammer]

eh, I was understanding it as 426 heads on a 440 - thats how it seemed like too...

" can you fit hemi heads on a 440?"
"no"
"WHY NOT"

I guess we dont really think much on the aftermarket hemi heads eh? 

[2fast4u]

                 What Troy said!!!!   

[Stormhammer]

okay now

how similar or different are the 440 block and the 426block?

and he still wants to know why you cant fit a 426 head on a 440 - I told him to go look at a pic of each engine and figure it out 

[Drache]

okay now

how similar or different are the 440 block and the 426block?

About 14cid? 

[Chargerguy74]

What was the deal with those 440ci versions of the hemi way back in the 70s (71???) where 4 of them were put into a race and they finished 1-2-3-4. That was the only time I ever heard of a 440 "version" of a hemi.

[Old Moparz]

One of these days they'll update & finish the web site, but it has been kept alive. Unlike some Charger site I know of.

http://www.stagev.com/

[Ghoste]

I have never heard of this 440 Hemi coming in 1-2-3-4 race.  Are you sure it isn't urban legend?  Most stock car and road racing events from that time periods limited the size to 7 liters which is why all of the big 3 have an engine around the 426 size for their corner turning efforts (Trans-Am and such notwithstanding of course).
As to the difference in the block, I believe the StageV website will explain it better but there are some significant changes.  The basic casting and dimensions are the same but things such as mounting holes for the heads come to mind.  I think the lifter bores are also different in their physical placement.  The intake mounts a little differently too but I'm not sure if that impacts the block architecture or not.

[hemigeno]

Don't forget that the Hemi main caps are cross-bolted as well.  There are reinforcement rib configuration differences too - the hemi blocks are stronger, but heavier too.

[Charger_Fan]

Don't forget that the Hemi main caps are cross-bolted as well.   There are reinforcement rib configuration differences too - the hemi blocks are stronger, but heavier too.

And they have an extra head bolt per cylinder if I recall correctly?

[hemigeno]

Y'know, I had to look that one up.  I thought at first that's right, since the Hemi heads have those studs that are tightened up from inside the cam/tappet valley.

However, the books show both the 383/440 and Hemi's have 17 cylinder head bolts.  8 on bottom, 5 in the middle, and 4 on top.

The difference is that the 4 on top with the 440 are bolted.  The Hemi's had to do the stud-with-valley-nut thing because of their sheer size.  That kept them from having to cast in some large boss to take the torque of a headbolt, which then would have interfered with pushrod clearances, and a whole host of other problems.  The stud/nut thing allowed a smaller casting boss.

[Charger_Fan]

Ok, that makes sense.
I knew there was a difference there, but couldn't remember exactly what for sure.

[69_500]

I was always told growing up that it would have been better to build a HEMI using a 383 instead of trying to tweak a 440 to handle the heads.

I personally was thinking of trying to do a swap of HEMI heads onto a 383 here in a few years. Whenever I pick up another project car, and then I can  throw the 383 I already have into that car.

[Chargerguy74]

I have never heard of this 440 Hemi coming in 1-2-3-4 race.   Are you sure it isn't urban legend?   Most stock car and road racing events from that time periods limited the size to 7 liters which is why all of the big 3 have an engine around the 426 size for their corner turning efforts (Trans-Am and such notwithstanding of course).
As to the difference in the block, I believe the StageV website will explain it better but there are some significant changes.   The basic casting and dimensions are the same but things such as mounting holes for the heads come to mind.   I think the lifter bores are also different in their physical placement.   The intake mounts a little differently too but I'm not sure if that impacts the block architecture or not.

Ghoste, I think I was off on the year, I'm thinking it was the mid 60s now, not sure why I thought early 70-71). Anyway, I think I read it in either the Mopar B/RB Engine book, or the Chassis 9th edition. When my shift is done I'll try to find it again.

[Ghoste]

Alright, I found it.  It's from the July 4 race at Daytona in 1971.  The cars were 426 cube big blocks with 440 heads.  Again, that 7 liter thing.  Basically, those were 440's destroked to 426 cubic inches.
Any NASCAR fans know who those 1-2-3-4 finishers were?
I'm guessing Richard Petty, Buddy Baker for the first two.

[Troy]

Alright, I found it. It's from the July 4 race at Daytona in 1971. The cars were 426 cube big blocks with 440 heads. Again, that 7 liter thing. Basically, those were 440's destroked to 426 cubic inches.
Any NASCAR fans know who those 1-2-3-4 finishers were?
I'm guessing Richard Petty, Buddy Baker for the first two.

Ok, those were "wedge" engines. The "aero" cars were limited to 305ci and were not competitive at all. The Hemi engines and Boss 429s were required to use restrictor plates and it slowed them down too much. Here's some info:
The “winged warriors” were parked in 1971. With a 305 cu. in. engine they would not be competitive. We continued to support NASCAR racing in 1971 - but to a lesser degree after our race cars were disallowed and our race engines were "handicapped." We did a contract with Richard Petty to run two 1971 cars - a Plymouth and a Dodge. By July they had converted these cars to wedge engines because they found out that the same displacement wedge was faster than a hemi with a 1 1/4" restrictor plate. Wedge engines finished 1-2-3-4 at the Firecracker 400.
http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/charger-history.html

1. #71 Bobby Isaac K & K Insurance '71 Dodge
2. #43 Richard Petty Petty Enterprises '71 Plymouth
3. #11 Buddy Baker Petty Enterprises '71 Dodge
4. #6 Pete Hamilton Cotton Owens '71 Plymouth
http://racing-reference.com/race?id=1971-27&series=W

Troy

[Silver R/T]

I was cruising in my charger once and this guy in concorde pulls up and says wow cool car, ive had one with 429 once. People sound funny when they try to impress me sometimes

[69_500]

Oh see and here I thought you were going to say it was the 1964 Daytona 500 that the cars finished 1-2-3-4. I believe that was the first race for a 426 HEMI, and I do believe that they swept the top 4 spots in that race as well.

[ChargerRob]

 

[Chargerguy74]

Ok, so I had the engine hemi/c.i. thing backwards, but my years were close, lol.

[Ghoste]

And your info was correct.  The 64 sweep was obviously much better publicized so the connection was easy to make.

[mustanghater]

perfect use of the movie office space.

[Troy]

perfect use of the movie office space.

Lemme guess - you didn't read this whole thread either?

Troy