Woo-Hoo, Chevy sells 281 Volts in February!!!!

[aussiemuscle]

 And at $25k, the cost differential with your comparison is made up in less than a year given an average user's 12,000 mile per year of driving.

Did you include your power bill in that math?  You can't recharge it for free.

i wonder with people struggling with the cost of their power bill how will this affect electric car sales?

[defiance]

I broke down the details of the math a few times in this thread, but short answer is yes - Generally speaking, at US average electricity costs and US average gas costs, you end up paying about 10-20% as much per mile.  

And to the "outsourcing the pollution" thing - that's right, and has been agreed several times in the thread.  But that puts 80% of the whole supply chain - and the money related to it - in the U.S.  Having said that, electricity can be produced a LOT cleaner than it is right now in the US, and we're moving steadily in that direction..  New gas-burning cars are about as emission-controlled as you can get and still be burning gas.

But personally, reducing oil imports and the associated money drain, as well as the simple economic reasons, are plenty for me without the pollution improvements.

[64dartgt]

600 miles for $13?  Very impressive.  So 46 miles per dollar x 3.60 (roughly) per gallon = 166 miles per gallon.

From Scientific American

When you compare battery to gasoline power, electricity wins hands down. A 2007 study by the non-profit Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) calculated that powering a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) would cost the equivalent of roughly 75 cents per gallon of gasoline—a price not seen at the pump for 30 years.

The calculation was made using an average cost of electricity of 8.5 cents per kilowatt hour and the estimated distance the car would travel on one charge, versus a car that gets 25 miles per gallon and is powered by $3 per gallon gasoline. Change any of those variables and the relative costs change.

I don't disagree that the electric car is the answer.  I am just concerned about the impact of using fossil fuels for a bridge to cleaner energy without proper oversight...as if the government has ever gotten THAT right (i.e. tBME in gasoline...ethanol in gas...etc...).  Exxon Mobil is saying we have a huge supply of natural gas we could use, however I watched "Gas Land" about how fracking the ground to release the gas is contaminating ground water (with proprietary drilling slurries containing all kinds of crap) and releasing natural gas into peoples wells and it was pretty scary stuff.  FYI, I have a BS in Chemisrty and MS in Analytical Chemistry and over 22 years of experience in the pharma industry.

[Brock Samson]

http://www.gas2electricity.com/

While it may take some time for you guys to either embrace or debunk...  but could this be to Voltage what french fri oil is to diesels?.. 

[Tilar]

Subsidies work out WAY in favor of gas-guzzlers.

Yeah, You should see the check they send me everytime I fill up my Suburban. 

[defiance]

Exxon will make its profit one way or another.  If they don't get it from the government, they'll just charge you more at the pump.  So yes, every time you fill up your suburban, you might as well be getting a check.

And that's fine, my point is simply that it's not discriminatory; both systems are subsidized, just in slightly different ways.


64dartgt, I agree - it's still far from an optimal solution.  But having said that, it's a much more flexible solution.  We can change energy sources of power plants one by one as new - or environmentally superior - energy sources are made economical and/or old sources are improved; a fuel-driven infrastructure will always be locked into that fuel only.  To me, it just makes more sense to keep that flexibility by running the transportation system on energy rather than fuel, so the infrastructure is independent of the energy source.




Brock - that site sets off my 'fishy-o-meter'   but I don't see any details about what they're doing (the videos seem to be about independent guys doing one-off conversions), so I have no idea.

[64dartgt]

I read an article where there are outfits that will lease you solar panels for your house as long is it is a good location.  This is a really viable idea, as the initial investment will prevent most homeowners from solar.  You make less because of the lease, but if you have a good location (as I believe I do), then it could be an idea that really makes solar grow significantly.  Now that will make electric cars cheap to run.

The other thing I can't believe is why every electric car doesn't have a roof full of solar panels.  Most peoples cars sit out in the sun all day while they are at work and the  flat surfaces of the hood and roof are ideal for solar cell.  Might as well get some free fuel!

[Old Moparz]

Instead of plugging into a charging station, I think the effort should be made to where an electric car is able to charge itself back up while you drive it. It would definitely eliminate the part of the greenie-gaspigger argument of what fuels, where they come from, & how much are used to produce the power to charge it. I can't find a decent article, but there are a few forums & sites that are saying that Nissan is working on this self charging system for the Leaf.

As a side note regarding the Volt, my wife & I saw one on the lot yesterday at the Chebbie dealership & stopped to look at it. Even with a rebate, at $44k you don't seem to get much for your dollar. It's not a terrible car, but it sure isn't a $44k car either. The salesperson was really talking bad about the Leaf saying you'd be left stranded if you're out of power. Somewhat true, but not really a valid argument if you pay attention to the charge like you do a gas gauge.

[1969chargerrtse]

Instead of plugging into a charging station, I think the effort should be made to where an electric car is able to charge itself back up while you drive it. It would definitely eliminate the part of the greenie-gaspigger argument of what fuels, where they come from, & how much are used to produce the power to charge it. I can't find a decent article, but there are a few forums & sites that are saying that Nissan is working on this self charging system for the Leaf.

As a side note regarding the Volt, my wife & I saw one on the lot yesterday at the Chebbie dealership & stopped to look at it. Even with a rebate, at $44k you don't seem to get much for your dollar. It's not a terrible car, but it sure isn't a $44k car either. The salesperson was really talking bad about the Leaf saying you'd be left stranded if you're out of power. Somewhat true, but not really a valid argument if you pay attention to the charge like you do a gas gauge.

The rebate is after the 44k.  The car should be selling for about 37k.  All the reviews are good about the car, not sure why you think it doesn't look like much?  The leaf doesn't look like much to me, but your point about watching the gauge is a good one.  I agree if the generator on the Volt fires up to power the car, why not charge the batteries at the same time?  Must be a reason, the car is very well thought out.
When the Model A first came out, it wasn't accepted with big fanfare to all the dedicated horse lovers either.  Change is not always welcome, but its coming anyway.  I look forward to it.

[Old Moparz]

The rebate is after the 44k.  The car should be selling for about 37k.  All the reviews are good about the car, not sure why you think it doesn't look like much?  The leaf doesn't look like much to me, but your point about watching the gauge is a good one.  I agree if the generator on the Volt fires up to power the car, why not charge the batteries at the same time?  Must be a reason, the car is very well thought out.
When the Model A first came out, it wasn't accepted with big fanfare to all the dedicated horse lovers either.  Change is not always welcome, but its coming anyway.  I look forward to it.

I phrased that sentence wrong about the $44k & the rebate, but even at $37k I'm not crazy about it. It comes down to value per dollar & what you get for your money. It's not unlike the truck I have that was cheaper as a leftover than a 2 year old truck with 30,000 miles. I just can't justify spending more on something that is basic transportation or a utility vehicle.

The leaf is ugly, but then most of the small economy cars from all the car companies are ugly. That's why I have the old cars to play around with. I like their look, the performance, & don't care what the MPG is. I'm not the least bit "anti-electric" or afraid of change, I just dislike the pricing of the Volt & similar cars.

[troutstreamnm]

My concern with electric cars (other than the limits of current technology) will be the cost of power in the future.  New scrubber requirements for coal-fired plants have just kicked in...that will raise rates.  The government is already laying the ground work for Cap and Tax by requiring companies to inventory and report all emissions.  If C&T is fully implemented who knows what the price of a kilowatt will be!  What else will come down the pike for carbon-based energy?  Nuclear, the only realistic solution, is back in the toilet due to the Japan tsunami.  Seems like the environmentalists are promoting the electric car on one hand and inadvertently killing them by forcing carbon regulations on power plant on the other....driving up electricity costs.  What a surprise!    

[defiance]

True, but on the other hand, if it goes up much, then home solar becomes viable.  Costs there have gone down a lot.

I looked at the company that does the solar leasing - that's one heck of a good deal.  In my case it would've been about the same per month as my electric bill savings at current prices, so not a big economic improvement, but I'd never have to worry about increased electricity costs, and I'd know the power was clean - pretty good deal for no increase in cost, IMO!

Unfortunately they're not available here, the company only works in 4-5 states.  Mostly west coast and texas if I remember correctly.

[1969chargerrtse]

The rebate is after the 44k. The car should be selling for about 37k. All the reviews are good about the car, not sure why you think it doesn't look like much? The leaf doesn't look like much to me, but your point about watching the gauge is a good one.  I agree if the generator on the Volt fires up to power the car, why not charge the batteries at the same time? Must be a reason, the car is very well thought out.
When the Model A first came out, it wasn't accepted with big fanfare to all the dedicated horse lovers either. Change is not always welcome, but its coming anyway.  I look forward to it.

I phrased that sentence wrong about the $44k & the rebate, but even at $37k I'm not crazy about it. It comes down to value per dollar & what you get for your money. It's not unlike the truck I have that was cheaper as a leftover than a 2 year old truck with 30,000 miles. I just can't justify spending more on something that is basic transportation or a utility vehicle.

The leaf is ugly, but then most of the small economy cars from all the car companies are ugly. That's why I have the old cars to play around with. I like their look, the performance, & don't care what the MPG is. I'm not the least bit "anti-electric" or afraid of change, I just dislike the pricing of the Volt & similar cars.

It's important to keep in mind this is brand spanking new technology for our times. Look how far the gas engine has come in it's first 100 years? Give the thing and the technology time to grow please. It's all good.
From this will come hydrogen cars, though they are out there but more main stream. As long as it pulls us away from buying oil from people that want me dead, I'm in.
P.S  If you want to be impressed, take it for a ride.  Peeking in the side window won't do it.  It's all about the type of drive the car gives.  How it handles, stops, accelerates etc... for what it is.  It always gets an impressive review.
Keep in mid your doing it for about a 7th of the cost of gas fuel.

[charge69]

I guess it is time for me  to chime in now. Down here in SE Texas, it is not unusual to go for a 100 mile drive just to see someone across town and back home! A pure-electric car is just not feasible here as they just do not have the range we need. At least, not yet.

Also, you can be sure the Government will figure out a way to make it as expensive as a gas vehicle to drive as soon as enough cars are on the road to make even a small dent in the car population. How else are they going to pay for building all the roads and repairing the old ones unless they make you pay for it in some sort of a tax like the gas tax of today? Electric cars are a novelty now but, you can be assured, they will not be for long if they decrease the gas tax much at all.

Personally, I am waiting for the hydrogen cell cars to be economically feasible rather than purchase an electric car now. The government will figure out a way to get my pound of flesh in taxes from that technology too, I would bet on it.

[troutstreamnm]

Very true, current technology is not suited for the majority of us in the rural West.  However, if all the poor souls that have to live in big cities such as Chicago, New York, etc. can use them for their urban commute, than go for it.

[charge69]

Hello troutstreamnm,

I wish I lived in the rural west. I live in North Houston, the 4th largest city in the country, population wise, and I see plenty of hybrids down here. I guess they have their place in the commuting world but ........ I just would not own one for a myriad of reasons.

Until fuel cell technology becomes more economically feasible or their is a major breakthrough in battery technology, rural America will just have to wait. Just not near enough range in an electric vehicle.

[troutstreamnm]

Hybrids are a different animal, they have range and economy all in one.  I know because my wife drives a first gen Toyota Prius.  It's a great "grocery getter" that get 45 mpg in town.  Just a bit small and not really designed for long distance driving.  Hybrids are still way ahead of the all electric car at this point in time IMHO.

[1969chargerrtse]

Hybrids are a different animal, they have range and economy all in one.  I know because my wife drives a first gen Toyota Prius.  It's a great "grocery getter" that get 45 mpg in town.  Just a bit small and not really designed for long distance driving.  Hybrids are still way ahead of the all electric car at this point in time IMHO.

The great point about Hybrids to me is not 45mpg, but sitting in traffic not burning fuel.

[64dartgt]

What the government should be investing in and mandating is better transmission technology.  All the car companies could put an eight speed transmission in their cards within five years doubling the MPG, but they are allowed to put four speeds behind their 4 cyl and keep the five and six speeds for their 6 and 8 cyl cars.

Anyone want to know what a Prius will do for MPG with an eight speed automatic?  I would love to put an OD unit in my Charger.  I looked into it when I had the tranny rebuilt but it just wasn't affordable for this budget build.  Maybe we can get a tax break through congress and get a rebate for putting Kiesler's in all our Mopars 

[1969chargerrtse]

What the government should be investing in and mandating is better transmission technology.  All the car companies could put an eight speed transmission in their cards within five years doubling the MPG, but they are allowed to put four speeds behind their 4 cyl and keep the five and six speeds for their 6 and 8 cyl cars.

Anyone want to know what a Prius will do for MPG with an eight speed automatic?  I would love to put an OD unit in my Charger.  I looked into it when I had the tranny rebuilt but it just wasn't affordable for this budget build.  Maybe we can get a tax break through congress and get a rebate for putting Kiesler's in all our Mopars 

Your Charger has the torque and power to move 8 speeds, a Prius does not. I'm sure most cars are geared to the max for speed/ economy.

[64dartgt]

Your Charger has the torque and power to move 8 speeds, a Prius does not. I'm sure most cars are geared to the max for speed/ economy.
[/quote]

The greater number of gears allows you the flexibility to obtain max speed and economy, neither of which is often possible with only 3-4 gears.  The max rpm of an engine is a constant (as built) as is the HP it will produce.  The engine doesn't really "know" what gear ratio it is connected to.  It is just an engine.  Admittedly the engine can be designed to make more hp/torque at different RPM ranges.

[defiance]

A large portion of cars being produced now have continuously variable transmissions as a standard or optional equipment.  It doesn't help that much, though.  An example is a versa - Without CVT, 24/32 --- with cvt, 28/34.  So it helps, but nowhere near doubling efficiency.  Still, it's nearly a 20% increase in city mileage, so your point still stands, just to a bit lesser extent.

[defiance]

*zombie thread*

So I'm now 1 year into ownership of my leaf.  11,500 miles.  ~$25 month average increase in electric bill.  Not a single ounce of trouble. 

I'm actually wrapping up an update on the charger (rebuilt the ignition/injection system, turned it into sequential injection with coil-near-plug using LS2 coil packs).  Started it up yesterday.  I'll try to get it wrapped up so I can get them out together in the sun - figure those two side-by-side should make some nice pictures   

[hatersaurusrex]

Resto-mod electric conversion for the Charger anytime soon?   It'll sound like this: vzeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[defiance]

TWINS!

(In the DeVito/Schwarzenegger sorta way )

Still have some underhood work to do on the charger (track down some gremlins & new a/c hoses mostly), so hood's still off, but got it going again enough to pull it out of the garage, spray it off and do some pics.