Superbirds converted back to Road runners when new.

[Aero426]

Jim, one more thing.   On your Vitamin C Bird, are the wing adjustment bolts black oxide, or painted?   

[hemigeno]

I've asked about the lacquer thing before, and been told a whole host of reasons why some believe that Creative did not use lacquer on Daytonas.  Jim knows that I respect his opinion greatly, and I have surely not seen every car in its original state.  Most of the original cars I have seen don't exhibit the same traits that lacquer would -- based on what I've been told about the properties of lacquer vs enamel paints.

Legal disclaimer:  Your opinion and experience may vary   

[xs29j8Bullitt]

My Superbird, RM23U0A170221, was one of the slow sellers... finally selling in March of 1971, after having sat on the dealer's lot for 15 months. A former employee has told me stories about the car during the 15 month period that it sat unsold at the dealer, Broadway Chrysler – Plymouth in San Antonio, Texas.  Basically, I was told that although it would not sell, it was stolen twice off the dealer's lot and each time recovered due to running out of fuel only a few miles away. I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird.  He also said the Superbird had been displayed in the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show in early 1970.

I have found evidence to support some of the stories told me by the former employee, including a newspaper article mentioning a Superbird at the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show.  For the last year I've been in touch again with the original owner of the Superbird, but have not gotten around to asking about the wing removal story.  He did confirm that the car was purchased in early 1971, at a steep discount after having been advertised several times in local newspapers by the dealership.  Based on his recollection, I researched newspaper archives and found a whole series of Superbird advertisements in all three San Antonio newspapers.  The advertised price of $3600 was a steep discount from the list price of over $4800, but the original owner says he bought the car at an even lower price... and believes that he still has the original dealer paperwork buried somewhere in his archives.  Below is proof the car sold new in March of 1971, and the first four Superbird ads starting on New Year's Eve and continuing into 1971...

[nascarxx29]

Did you try the San Antonio Light Newspaper 1881-1993

1970
San Antonio's first international auto show, sponsored by The Light and the San Antonio Automobile Dealers Association, was lauded as an overwhelming success by participants Sunday night when the six-day show ended.

[hemigeno]

My Superbird, RM23U0A170221, was one of the slow sellers... finally selling in March of 1971, after having sat on the dealer's lot for 15 months. A former employee has told me stories about the car during the 15 month period that it sat unsold at the dealer, Broadway Chrysler – Plymouth in San Antonio, Texas.  Basically, I was told that although it would not sell, it was stolen twice off the dealer's lot and each time recovered due to running out of fuel only a few miles away. I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird.  He also said the Superbird had been displayed in the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show in early 1970.

I have found evidence to support some of the stories told me by the former employee, including a newspaper article mentioning a Superbird at the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show.  For the last year I've been in touch again with the original owner of the Superbird, but have not gotten around to asking about the wing removal story.  He did confirm that the car was purchased in early 1971, at a steep discount after having been advertised several times in local newspapers by the dealership.  Based on his recollection, I researched newspaper archives and found a whole series of Superbird advertisements in all three San Antonio newspapers.  The advertised price of $3600 was a steep discount from the list price of over $4800, but the original owner says he bought the car at an even lower price... and believes that he still has the original dealer paperwork buried somewhere in his archives.  Below is proof the car sold new in March of 1971, and the first four Superbird ads starting on New Year's Eve and continuing into 1971...

Awesome stuff Allen!

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Did you try the San Antonio Light Newspaper 1881-1993

1970
San Antonio's first international auto show, sponsored by The Light and the San Antonio Automobile Dealers Association, was lauded as an overwhelming success by participants Sunday night when the six-day show ended.

Yes... The Superbird was mentioned in reference to a well known boxer of the time sitting in the car being displayed, but no pictures... 

[nascarxx29]

Ok the other yellow bird I recall from San antonio texas area was the old Price car.Being from that area might know about your car
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,63970.0.html

[xs29j8Bullitt]

My Superbird, RM23U0A170221, was one of the slow sellers... finally selling in March of 1971, after having sat on the dealer's lot for 15 months. A former employee has told me stories about the car during the 15 month period that it sat unsold at the dealer, Broadway Chrysler – Plymouth in San Antonio, Texas.  Basically, I was told that although it would not sell, it was stolen twice off the dealer's lot and each time recovered due to running out of fuel only a few miles away. I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird.  He also said the Superbird had been displayed in the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show in early 1970.

I have found evidence to support some of the stories told me by the former employee, including a newspaper article mentioning a Superbird at the 1970 San Antonio International Auto Show.  For the last year I've been in touch again with the original owner of the Superbird, but have not gotten around to asking about the wing removal story.  He did confirm that the car was purchased in early 1971, at a steep discount after having been advertised several times in local newspapers by the dealership.  Based on his recollection, I researched newspaper archives and found a whole series of Superbird advertisements in all three San Antonio newspapers.  The advertised price of $3600 was a steep discount from the list price of over $4800, but the original owner says he bought the car at an even lower price... and believes that he still has the original dealer paperwork buried somewhere in his archives.  Below is proof the car sold new in March of 1971, and the first four Superbird ads starting on New Year's Eve and continuing into 1971...

Awesome stuff Allen!

Thanks  Gene...  I still hope to get more paperwork from the original owner... I need to call him again.

[maxwellwedge]

Jim, one more thing.   On your Vitamin C Bird, are the wing adjustment bolts black oxide, or painted?   

Doug - I think they are painted - I'll check 

[maxwellwedge]

I've asked about the lacquer thing before, and been told a whole host of reasons why some believe that Creative did not use lacquer on Daytonas.  Jim knows that I respect his opinion greatly, and I have surely not seen every car in its original state.  Most of the original cars I have seen don't exhibit the same traits that lacquer would -- based on what I've been told about the properties of lacquer vs enamel paints.

Legal disclaimer:  Your opinion and experience may vary   

I knew that was coming my friend......that's why I threw in the disclaimer, "usually (if not always) with lacquer".        I do have a couple of original paint tail wings that are definitely lacquer....but, on the other part of my post - the noses were definitely on and masked on some real good survivors I have seen. Did they do this all of the time? Who knows for sure!

[hemigeno]

I've asked about the lacquer thing before, and been told a whole host of reasons why some believe that Creative did not use lacquer on Daytonas.  Jim knows that I respect his opinion greatly, and I have surely not seen every car in its original state.  Most of the original cars I have seen don't exhibit the same traits that lacquer would -- based on what I've been told about the properties of lacquer vs enamel paints.

Legal disclaimer:  Your opinion and experience may vary  

I knew that was coming my friend......that's why I threw in the disclaimer, "usually (if not always) with lacquer".       I do have a couple of original paint tail wings that are definitely lacquer....but, on the other part of my post - the noses were definitely on and masked on some real good survivors I have seen. Did they do this all of the time? Who knows for sure!

Now wings, that's another story.  I am far from a paint expert, but I had heard from others that wings were painted in lacquer.  Whether that's the case or not, I'll leave for others to decide - and you'd be a good one to express an opinion with the observational results from your steeds.  

Noses, fenders, etc. were most definitely on and masked as you've said.  I should have been more specific with my earlier comments, as I wasn't thinking about wings. 

[maxwellwedge]

I think I have some pics of some original snouts in lacquer somewhere.......I think Creative would of used spray bombs if they could! 

[ECS]

I was also told that the dealership removed the wing to make the car more sellable, but when they finally found a buyer, he insisted that the wing be reinstalled. He went on to say that the dealership was unable to find the wing, it had apparently been thrown away or taken home by someone... so they ordered a new wing for the Superbird.

Keep in mind some the logic here was rhetorically challenged by another "member" who explained why this type of scenario would never have occurred.  Why would the Dealership want the expense of welding up empty holes?  Why would they spend the time & money to prime the repaired body panels?  The repairs would then have to be painted and blended to match the surrounding body panels.  Why do all this work when the logic just doesn't add up?

As for me, I DO believe the above scenario because these cars WERE NOT looked upon as the special high dollar cars that they are today.  They didn't care if they looked good or were kept Factory Original.  Tom Barcroft stated that even as recent as 2006, the Dealerships were still doing this type of conversion diss-assembly to the Dodge Daytona Trucks.  Guess what?  They didn't care about fixing the holes that were left in the panels.  They didn't take the time to try and repair anything once they took the wings off of those Daytona Trucks!  Some Customers didn't like the rear wing so they took it off and sold the car.    

[held1823]

your second paragraph might well explain what could have occurred in the first one.

i didn't see any mention of the dealer filling in the holes, and then having to drill them back out. they might have stuck a few plugs in the holes, to first see how things went without the wing. if they did fill the holes in, what was the going rate on a quart of FY1 paint and a handful of bondo, circa 1970?

[Aero426]

Keep in mind some the logic here was rhetorically challenged by another "member" who explained why this type of scenario would never have occurred.  Why would the Dealership want the expense of welding up empty holes?  Why would they spend the time & money to prime the repaired body panels?  The repairs would then have to be painted and blended to match the surrounding body panels.  Why do all this work when the logic just doesn't add up?

As for me, I DO believe the above scenario because these cars WERE NOT looked upon as the special high dollar cars that they are today.  They didn't care if they looked good or were kept Factory Original.  Tom Barcroft stated that even as recent as 2006, the Dealerships were still doing this type of conversion diss-assembly to the Dodge Daytona Trucks.  Guess what?  They didn't care about fixing the holes that were left in the panels.  They didn't take the time to try and repair anything once they took the wings off of those Daytona Trucks!  Some Customers didn't like the rear wing so they took it off and sold the car.    

The removal of the wing is the least costly way to modify the car.     It is a scenario that is more plausible.    The only documented Superbird like this I ever encountered was the car Tom Pridmore bought new in Florida.   But that car was lot damaged and the wing removed until 1978 when Tom bought one and put it back on.   He didn't know where to get one until then.    

As to the trucks, well I understand dealers make changes.   There is no comparison to removing the wing off a truck bed versus the complete reconfiguring of a wing car.     It really is not a comparable situation.    Also, how did the address the holes?   Weld shut and refinish the bed sides, or fill them with a flush fastener, or cover with a bed rail?     You have at least six hours repair and refinish time on a Superbird. 

[odcics2]

For an idea to how the cars were painted at Creative, look up those photos taken in the back lot of Creative and of the cars on the hauler. Good clues there!

[pettybird]

The removal of the wing is the least costly way to modify the car.    

As a kid who stepped on all of his Tyco slot cars, I can tell you 'birds look ugly without the wing.  I certainly wouldn't have bought one like that. 

[Redbird]

There are in the neighborhood of 37 years of DSAC and Winged Warrior newsletters. Having read most all of them, when they came out, I don't recall a theme of "Mine was one of the cars converted back to a regular car by the original dealer and I need help finding parts to get it back to how the factory built it" at all. I do remember the article on the Tom Pridmore car describing the loss of a wing.

I remember many themes similar to " The second owner had a accident, wrecked the nose and fenders on my "Lime Green" car and found a Road Runner Red car front clip and installed it in 1974, I know it was Red because one can see the original Red paint under the bolts". " I'm trying to collect parts, will trade Road Runner parts toward any Superbird parts, Please Help!".

I would think that if there was a vast dealer conversion scheme that groups of specific named cars would have surfaced over the last 4 decades.

There has been a tale of a conversion system, but not specific cars. There are plenty of wrecked, ruined, rusted cars; and owners looking for parts universally have cited a previous owners accident, girlfriend, or driving the car in the winter for all sorts of ills causing a specific conversion.

If dealer conversion was common, shouldn't the 2 clubs start a club chapter for dealer converted cars?

I recall seeing the club members lists of cars and owners. It was noted when owners transfered Hemi tags on to a Satellite convertable, or on to a GTX frame. Maybe I missed something about the converted cars and I'll be much smarter tomorrow.

It seems that the 2 clubs have been pretty visible for decades. Pre-internet the were ads in Hemmings and other magazines and books for the clubs. So I would think, and I know, that folks looking for missing parts were able to find the clubs.

[maxwellwedge]

Jim, one more thing.   On your Vitamin C Bird, are the wing adjustment bolts black oxide, or painted?   

Doug - I think they are painted - I'll check 

Yep - Mine are painted. 

Very thin paint on the inner uprights and the bottom of the horizontal foil too.

[Ghoste]

Jim, your in box is full.

[Lord Warlock]

as to the original post about converted wing cars to regulars, i doubt that this happened often if at all, investing more money to convert a car over just to move it doesn't make sense when the car only cost 3500 to start with, the conversion would likely cost more than 500 to buy the parts, plus the labor, plus the paint just to move. 

I know for a fact that the superbirds in particular were slow movers in the early 70s.  As a 14 year old into cars visiting dealerships with my dad and uncle in Jacksonville FL in June of 1973, we came across a 440-6 pack superbird that the dealer had kept in the showroom on display, and had moved it out after 3 years and no interest/offers on the car.  I tried to get my dad to pursue it, and the sales manager offered to sell it for 3000.00, brand new, with 15 miles on it.  I believe it had a 4spd but honestly cannot remember for sure, i do know it was a 440 six pack version though.  It was either yellow or orange.  I would think if a dealer would actually hold on to a car intact for 3 years hoping it would sell, there wouldn't be many ways to convert one over cheap enough to make it possible. 

[Magnumcharger]

Seen recently at a Portland Oregon swap meet.

[GOTWING]

  I'm surprised the rear window trim is still on it. 

[rainbow4jd]

as to the original post about converted wing cars to regulars, i doubt that this happened often if at all, investing more money to convert a car over just to move it doesn't make sense when the car only cost 3500 to start with, the conversion would likely cost more than 500 to buy the parts, plus the labor, plus the paint just to move.  

I know for a fact that the superbirds in particular were slow movers in the early 70s.  As a 14 year old into cars visiting dealerships with my dad and uncle in Jacksonville FL in June of 1973, we came across a 440-6 pack superbird that the dealer had kept in the showroom on display, and had moved it out after 3 years and no interest/offers on the car.  I tried to get my dad to pursue it, and the sales manager offered to sell it for 3000.00, brand new, with 15 miles on it.  I believe it had a 4spd but honestly cannot remember for sure, i do know it was a 440 six pack version though.  It was either yellow or orange.  I would think if a dealer would actually hold on to a car intact for 3 years hoping it would sell, there wouldn't be many ways to convert one over cheap enough to make it possible.  

I've been in the auto industry for 30 years (31 actually) - here are what dealers do to move slow cars.

1. Tape stripes to create a unique appearance (low cost) and then you mark the $50 tape stripe up to $500 so you can show a bigger discount.    This would have been very UNLIKELY with a car as unique as the Daytona or Superbird.

2. Employee incentive.     You commission the sales reps extra money if they can find someone to buy the damn thing.    Rather than distress pricing, you just pay more commission.   This is probably a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car

3. Dealer Demo:   If you move an unsold unit into Dealer Demo status, you can depreciate the car (expense it) which means each month the value of the car is reduced.  It's an "on paper" reduction in the value of the car.    Back in 1969 or 1970, you would probably have depreciated about $100 or $200 a month at most.    Now the problem with Dealer Demos is the accumulated miles.   Most states require a "new" car to have less than 6,000 miles on it.     So depending on who got assigned the demo, and how far they had to drive this would have impacted how long the vehicle stayed in demo status.   Odds are you might be able to pull $1000-1500 dollars of value off a car if it was in Demo service for a year.  I have been told that my car was a dealer demo prior to its sale.   This is also a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car.

4. Discount.    Obviously if you use the Dealer Demo strategy then discounting becomes easier to do since deprecation helps - but at some point you just decide to bite the bullet and dump the thing.   Dealers would have been paying about $50 a month in finance charges (floor plan) so at some point - they start going "I've got $600 in this heap (one year of floor plan) and it ain't getting any lookers at all!  Man, I'll take a $1000 hit and re-invest $3,000 in something I can make some profit on!"

5. Alteration:   Unbolting the wing - MIGHT be easy enough to do - but the first thing someone is going to say is "How come my trunk is full of water?"    If you decided to do a full blown "anti-aero conversion" back to a RR - you are looking at $500 of parts and labor (if not more) on a car that is stinking the joint up.    In investing another $500, you would ONLY do that if you believed it would give you $1000 of additional profit.    AND THAT MAKES NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL - because Road Runner's cost less than Superbirds.    Think about it in terms of dollars.  

The top selling Roadrunner /GTX might be $3,500 list and the dealer would have owned it at about $2,500.   So you have a Superbird at $4.500 that you own at $3,500 and you just added $500 of conversion costs to now own it at $4,000.    IF YOU SOLD IT AT FULL STICKER for a Road Runner - you LOSE $500.    Odds are - you're INSTEAD selling it at the $3500 you got in it without adding any more.   In other words, you got NEGATIVE RETURN ON INVESTMENT if you added $500 to a car that already costs more than what you are trying to turn it into (a RR).  

6. BIG Discount.  I know I listed this before - but when you look at the BAD financial decision of spending money to convert a car into a LOWER PRICED CAR, then you realize how stupid the idea is.    Just keep discounting until you find a buyer looking for a deal.     "Hey man, I can sell you this TOP LINE Road Runner Superbird for the same price as a fully loaded RR - $3,500 - how about it?   You get all the regular RR stuff plus the race trim nose and wing are basically freebies.   It's the last one on the lot and we need to move it - so whadda ya say?"

"$3,300?  SOLD!"

In summary....

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY DAYTONA'S OR SUPERBIRD'S WERE EVERY CONVERTED BACK TO CHARGERS OR ROAD RUNNERS UNLESS THEY WERE WRECKED IN TRANSIT OR ON THE LOT.   At that point, the cost to repair one back to a charger or road runner MIGHT have been less than keeping them in a wing car state.

I've consulted with over 600 dealers in my career - none of them like spending more money to sell something.   It makes NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL.



4.

[Beep Beep Dave]

as to the original post about converted wing cars to regulars, i doubt that this happened often if at all, investing more money to convert a car over just to move it doesn't make sense when the car only cost 3500 to start with, the conversion would likely cost more than 500 to buy the parts, plus the labor, plus the paint just to move. 

I know for a fact that the superbirds in particular were slow movers in the early 70s.  As a 14 year old into cars visiting dealerships with my dad and uncle in Jacksonville FL in June of 1973, we came across a 440-6 pack superbird that the dealer had kept in the showroom on display, and had moved it out after 3 years and no interest/offers on the car.  I tried to get my dad to pursue it, and the sales manager offered to sell it for 3000.00, brand new, with 15 miles on it.  I believe it had a 4spd but honestly cannot remember for sure, i do know it was a 440 six pack version though.  It was either yellow or orange.  I would think if a dealer would actually hold on to a car intact for 3 years hoping it would sell, there wouldn't be many ways to convert one over cheap enough to make it possible. 

I've been in the auto industry for 30 years (31 actually) - here are what dealers do to move slow cars.

1. Tape stripes to create a unique appearance (low cost) and then you mark the $50 tape stripe up to $500 so you can show a bigger discount.    This would have been very UNLIKELY with a car as unique as the Daytona or Superbird.

2. Employee incentive.     You commission the sales reps extra money if they can find someone to buy the damn thing.    Rather than distress pricing, you just pay more commission.   This is probably a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car

3. Dealer Demo:   If you move an unsold unit into Dealer Demo status, you can depreciate the car (expense it) which means each month the value of the car is reduced.  It's an "on paper" reduction in the value of the car.    Back in 1969 or 1970, you would probably have depreciated about $100 or $200 a month at most.    Now the problem with Dealer Demos is the accumulated miles.   Most states require a "new" car to have less than 6,000 miles on it.     So depending on who got assigned the demo, and how far they had to drive this would have impacted how long the vehicle stayed in demo status.   Odds are you might be able to pull $1000-1500 dollars of value off a car if it was in Demo service for a year.  I have been told that my car was a dealer demo prior to its sale.   This is also a VERY LIKELY scenario with a slow moving Wing Car.

4. Discount.    Obviously if you use the Dealer Demo strategy then discounting becomes easier to do since deprecation helps - but at some point you just decide to bite the bullet and dump the thing.   Dealers would have been paying about $50 a month in finance charges (floor plan) so at some point - they start going "I've got $600 in this heap (one year of floor plan) and it ain't getting any lookers at all!  Man, I'll take a $1000 hit and re-invest $3,000 in something I can make some profit on!"

5. Alteration:   Unbolting the wing - MIGHT be easy enough to do - but the first thing someone is going to say is "How come my trunk is full of water?"    If you decided to do a full blown "anti-aero conversion" back to a RR - you are looking at $500 of parts and labor (if not more) on a car that is stinking the joint up.    In investing another $500, you would ONLY do that if you believed it would give you $1000 of additional profit.    AND THAT MAKES NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL - because Road Runner's cost less than Superbirds.    Think about it in terms of dollars.   

The top selling Roadrunner /GTX might be $3,500 list and the dealer would have owned it at about $2,500.   So you have a Superbird at $4.500 that you own at $3,500 and you just added $500 of conversion costs to now own it at $3,000.    IF YOU SOLD IT AT FULL STICKER for a Road Runner - you make $500.    Odds are - you're selling it at the $3000 you got in it.   In other words, you got zero return on investment - you added $500 to a car to get NOTHING extra in return.   

6. BIG Discount.  I know I listed this before - but when you look at the BAD financial decision of spending money to convert a car into a LOWER PRICED CAR, then you realize how stupid the idea is.    Just keep discounting until you find a buyer looking for a deal.     "Hey man, I can sell you this TOP LINE Road Runner Superbird for the same price as a fully loaded RR - $3,500 - how about it?   You get all the regular RR stuff plus the race trim nose and wing are basically freebies.   It's the last one on the lot and we need to move it - so whadda ya say?"

"$3,300?  SOLD!"

In summary....

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY DAYTONA'S OR SUPERBIRD'S WERE EVERY CONVERTED BACK TO CHARGERS OR ROAD RUNNERS UNLESS THEY WERE WRECKED IN TRANSIT OR ON THE LOT.   At that point, the cost to repair one back to a charger or road runner MIGHT have been less than keeping them in a wing car state.

I've consulted with over 600 dealers in my career - none of them like spending more money to sell something.   It makes NO FINANCIAL SENSE AT ALL.



4.

Well said!

I think another thing that is lost is that there are 2015 Model Year cars for sale that are also brand new at various dealerships across North America right now, the whole Daytona/Superbird sitting on lots unwanted is blown way out of proportion...makes for a good story.

Dave