Superbirds converted back to Road runners when new.

[ECS]

Mr. Weidner did not remove the parts himself, did not supervise the removal himself, did not observe them being removed, did not see the removed parts, did not see the car after the fact and he is the one who states clearly that he did not witness any of this but some employees told him it happened.  He heard that it took place and he said that.  That pretty much makes it hearsay evidence.

Take the name "Mr. Weidner" out of the scenario and you have described the basis for just about any Biography, History Book or Documentary that has been reported after the fact.  According to your logic, modern day Titanic historians have no business writing about the ordeal because they weren't there and didn't see it sink.  I guess all "hearsay evidence" is flawed or inaccurate.  ESPECIALLY the subject matter that you don't want to believe.  Just curious.......did you argue with your History Instructors or did you accept their teachings on George Washington?  Don't tell me that there were people around (back then) who documented his life!  You weren't there and for all you know the "hearsay" may have been inaccurately documented by individuals with flawed recollections!

I'm sure you're right though.  How about I give you Ralph's phone number and you call him to correct his flawed memory on how things really happened?!  You have convinced me that the Body shop Employees at the Dealership, who Ralph personally knew, that worked on his C Class race car MUST have "misconstrued" their recollection of what they did to the car (that he ordered for their Dealership) in 1969.  I bet it was a conspiracy and they "misconstrued" the information because they knew it would be a point of contention 40 years later.  Truth be known, they probably were working on a Ford Pinto but ol' Ralph and the Dealership Employees just got caught up in the hype and sensationalized the story as the years went by.  Yes....that sounds feasible to me!  I think that's the story I'll start misconstruing from here forward.  Its been about 4 months since I heard the story.  It hasn't been forty years but at least there is a "4" in the duration of time since he told it!  Or should I wait a bit longer until it becomes even more controversial "hearsay"?  

[djcarguy]

  :popcrn:WHAT YEAR PINTO ,WAS IT A SPorTABOUT???   DID IT HAVE A V8 AND GO 200 MPH ON CLOSED TRACK?/???   WHAT A BUNCH OF HOT AIR AND BULL PILES. NOW ITS HIS RACE CREW AND ON ON ON  ON AND ON.//WELL WAS FUN FOR A FEW SECONDS  but its all boring now...bye     :

[Ghoste]

Whatever Dave.  Since I really think you have some other agenda in this entire thing and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with me, you can win.  You're right, I'm wrong.  Now you can go argue with whoever it is that you are actually at odds with here.

[ECS]

Since I really think you have some other agenda......

Your omniscient capabilities never cease to amaze me.  You know what everyone thinks and even what aspects of a person's memory are legitimate or imaginary.  No need to worry though ghoste!  Tom Barcroft and I are sitting in my office as I type this and are enjoying a good laugh at all of the brilliant hypotheticals expressed here.  Tom is also telling how his Father was Ralph's Supervisor in 1969 and how the Corporate Zone Offices were directly across the street from St Ann Dodge.  (They were on the eight floor to be exact but that is just "hearsay" from Tom.)  For the record, Ralph does not know who owns the Daytona nor does he have any idea as to the controversy that has ensued. 

With that said, Tom and I are going to call Ralph and have him contact one of the guys who was actually involved in taking the car apart.  He is still around and lives in Illinois.  I will have another video made to document the question & answer session.  I have personally never met the guy or talked with him.  I am also going to invite Gene Lewis or ANYONE else to be present during the interview who would like to attend.  If you like ghoste, I will pay for a round trip plane ticket for you to fly in and witness the meeting first hand.  (And yes, I am Serious.)  That way you can hear their testimonies/stories for yourself.  Feel free to tell them to their face how they are simply incorrect about their recollections.  I guarantee that I will talk to your face exactly as I have on this forum.  I'll call to get things set up and let me know if you are in!   

[Ghoste]

Cool!  See, you win.

[ECS]

Cool!  See, you win.

I am going to set this up and was serious about paying to have you join us.  I am not a very bright person when it comes to reading between the lines.  Should I take your response as a yes or no on the full expense paid invitation?  

[Ghoste]

Doesn't matter.  You are right whatever you choose. 

[ECS]

Doesn't matter.  You are right whatever you choose. 

That's what I thought!  Enjoy the sanctuary of your keyboard!

[Aero426]

Dave Walden:  What was the exact reasoning for having to take the nose and wing off the Daytona at St Ann Dodge?

[GOTWING]

 

[nascarxx29]

Looking up St Ann dodge.  http://www.allstardodgechryslerjeep.com/dealership/about.htm

Celebrating his 30th year in the St Louis Automotive community Vince Capatosta's love of cars and people have been the driving force behind his success. Mr. Capatosta started out small in [[1979 selling]] just the Dodge brand and pre-owned vehicles at his first store, St. Ann Dodge at the intersection of St. Charles Rock Road and Cypress. With his dedication to customer satisfaction and his hands on approach to running

[odcics2]

I have nothing to add to either side of the discussion but this:

[richRTSE]

I'm hearing is hearsay amongst the bickering about hearsay.......

Please explain why Chrysler executives that share their personal experiences (with this regards to this information) is considered "hearsay"?  I would hate to see if some of you were lawyers when "expert" witnesses were called into Court provide their "expert" testimony.  You would constantly be standing up "objecting" to the Judge claiming their expert testimony is nothing more than "hearsay"..... 

Why is it considered hearsay? Because THAT is the definition of hearsay

hear·say/ˈhi(ə)rˌsā/
Noun:
1.Information received from other people that cannot be adequately substantiated; rumor.
2.The report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.



thats what Mr. Wiedner says at 7:10 in your video: "...I didn't witness this...but some of the guys at the dealership told me..."

that does not mean it didn't happen, or the account is wrong, but what is wrong with wanting more proof that it did happen as he says it did? 

After all, this is the same Mr. Wiedner that stated at 3:20 of the same video that: "...all the Trans Ams and all the Cudas were sold used as-is..."   and further discussion on this matter revealed that some were driven and sold at a discount to the dealers, but definately not ALL of them...

Next time you're shopping for a car and the guy tells you its matching numbers, are you going to take his word for it, or are you gonna crawl under the car and take a look for yourself?  Would you expect the guy to get mad that you are questioning his honesty? If you verify it is numbers matching, do you then expect the seller to gloat over you and say "see, I told you!"? 

[JB400]

I think someone forgot that throughout history people filled out journals and diaries to record thier thoughts and historical events that happened at that time period.  In other words, these are a first hand written account. If someone wrote something years after the event happened, that is a second hand account.  In other words, there is enough historical documents to get a good understanding of how someone like Washington lived and what took place during his lifetime. 
As far as the Titanic.  Everything is pure speculation.  All accounts were taken a few days after it really happened. Everyone talked about it on the Carpathia and they construed thier own information.  But, we have the ship itself for now.  And the ship itself is a first hand account evidence.  There has been extensive research of the ship itself that we have a really good understanding of how the ship sunk.   

Either way,  I'm going to take ghostes' ideology on this thread.  Everything here is just speculation and hearsay until substantial evidence has come to limelight. The author of this thread can raise his flag high and mighty, but until I see substantial proof, this thread rests at the bottom of website with the Volt in my eyes.  Now if you want to bump your post count up to 1000, I'm game

[ECS]

Would you expect the guy to get mad that you are questioning his honesty?.....

Not at all!  I completely agree with you.  What is odd is the manner in which some of you guys react to similar or parallel situations.  Ralph's rendition of the past is "hearsay" and has invoked a significant amount of skepticism and condescending attacks.  I just got off the phone with Gene Lewis and we were discussing this ordeal.  He has a thread about the Owner's Reunion of his Daytona.  The same people who are lecturing me about "hearsay" are on THAT thread, congratulating and glad handing the "hearsay" information that he posted there!  With all due respect to my Friend Gene, why didn't you all attack his stories as they related to that car?  Why didn't you challenge the ability of those "senior" member/previous owners and their rendition or possibly "misconstruing" the old days with respect to the car?  Just because they owned it doesn't mean that they didn't confuse their recollection of the circumstances 4 decades later.....right?  The car didn't even mean enough to them to keep it!  How could you expect any of them to accurately remember information about a car that they sold more than forty years ago?  

Tom Barcroft is coming here to tell his personal experiences with this subject matter and post PICTURES of his converted Viper Truck. They were stripped of some of their "unique" parts because Customers did not like them.  Since he didn't turn the screws to remove the parts, stand and watch it happen as it was being done, I guess he has no credibility when he states that MANY Dodge Viper Trucks had their wings removed in a similar fashion.  He claims the attics at Dealerships had a significant amount of these wings sitting in their lofts.  Silly old Tom!!

[Aero426]

Not at all!  I completely agree with you.  What is odd is the manner in which some of you guys react to similar or parallel situations.  Ralph's rendition of the past is "hearsay" and has invoked a significant amount of skepticism and condescending attacks.  I just got off the phone with Gene Lewis and we were discussing this ordeal.  He has a thread about the Owner's Reunion of his Daytona.  The same people who are lecturing me about "hearsay" are on THAT thread, congratulating and glad handing the "hearsay" information that he posted there!  With all due respect to my Friend Gene, why didn't you all attack his stories as they related to that car?  Why didn't you challenge the ability of those "senior" member/previous owners and their rendition or possibly "misconstruing" the old days with respect to the car?  Just because they owned it doesn't mean that they didn't confuse their recollection of the circumstances 4 decades later.....right?  The car didn't even mean enough to them to keep it!  How could you expect any of them to accurately remember information about a car that they sold more than forty years ago?  

I don't think there has been anything controversial about Gene's car that would alter the thought process of how Daytonas in general were built or sold.  I can accept the black front spoiler as a possibility.    However, if Gene posted emphatically that his car came from the factory without fender scoops and had recall wheels, and the original owner "told him so", I don't know that he would be given a free pass.   

I'll repeat my earlier question.   Can you explain the reasoning why St Ann Dodge removed the nose and wing on 390018? 

[hemigeno]

However, if Gene posted emphatically that his car came from the factory without fender scoops and had recall wheels, and the original owner "told him so", I don't know that he would be given a free pass.  

Nor should I be.  

I think a lot of what's being discussed centers on some misunderstandings of the respective parties' assertions on this topic.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

Dave/ECS has provided an interview with someone who knows what happened to a single Daytona "back in the day".  

Ghoste, et al, have NOT called Mr. Wiedner's truthfullness into question with regard to that one car.


I don't know where the notion of widespread Daytona conversions (back to "regular" Chargers) has entered into the discussion, but I don't think it was Dave's intention to make that assertion any more than it was the other members' intention to call Ralph a liar.  Getting into the discussion of what is hearsay and what isn't is ancillary to the topic itself.  Most of the folks in the wing car community tend to bristle at the notion that wing cars were frequently converted back to their "regular" counterparts by the dealership before an initial sale occurred.  Prior to this summer, I would have guessed that the stories about Daytonas being converted back were nothing more than rumors and/or folklore, and that the practice was used more - if not exclusively - on Superbirds.  I am more than willing to acknowledge that Tony's car's history changes my perceptions on that topic... but as with most everyone, I'm still skeptical that the practice was widespread.  It is impossible to prove exactly how many wing cars were converted back, since any decision to do so was made independently of Chrysler in the first place (i.e. by the dealership), and I can't prove that it wasn't a lot more widespread than what I currently believe to be the case.

Incidentally, Tom's story about his dad peeling the rump stripe off a Y2 Charger 500 (440 auto with A/C if you're taking notes, Danny!) was interesting.  As a result of what he did that hot summer's day, that car has some unique history which makes no sense at all unless you hear the background story - in which case it makes perfect sense.  That's what we would likely find to be the case with a lot of our modern-day opinions on vintage subjects.

[Aero426]

Is there any tangible proof that the EXACT Daytona that parts were reportedly removed from is actually 390018? 

The photos of this car pre-restoration do not seem to support the story. 

[Ramsrt]

Dave Walden:  What was the exact reasoning for having to take the nose and wing off the Daytona at St Ann Dodge?

Hi Everyone,

This is Tom.

One thing to remember here is dealerships are in business to sell vehicles. It's as true today as it was in the 60's and 70's. Sometimes for what ever reason a vehicle goes unsold . ( wrong equipment, high price, unusual color, change in public demand,etc) . Once a vehicle sits on the lot it does 2 things. 1. It costs $$$ each and every day it sits on the lot. 2. Age and deterioration are always at work. They don't get more valuable the longer they sit on the lot.  Every once in a while you hear the terminology of the vehicle having a birthday while in inventory. Every dealer wants to turn the inventory in a 60-90 day fashion or quicker but that doesn't always happen.  The quick answer to the question is to get the vehicle sold.  While we value the wing cars today  - that wasn't always the way in all cases. Many dealers struggled to sell the vehicles - many customers didn't like the radical styling. Dealers took actions they felt necessary to move the iron.

As a bit of history. St. Ann Dodge was located literally across the parking lot from the Chrysler Corporate offices in the office building in Northwest Plaza for those familiar with St. Louis. In 1971 the offices moved to the then new Parts Depot in Hazelwood.  I remember visiting the old office on Saturdays when Dad went in to get a couple of hours work done. You could look out the office windows and see the dealership lot. Many of the company cars were shipped to St. Ann or Northwest Chrysler just down the street as a matter of convience. I know that Ralph, mentioned else where in the thread, had St. Ann Dodge maintain his Charger that he drag raced so he saw them frequently. 

I wanted to convey some stories about vehicles that I drove while at Chrysler. Many of them were "bank units"  the company was having difficulty selling them to the dealers and put them in company service. Many times you would get a list with maybe 50-75 vehicles on it and and an email to pickone and call the vin # in. Usually first come so you have to know the option codes, colors etc to pick the one you wanted. Sometimes you got choice #2 or 3 depending on your draw .

Below are pictures of some of my prior company vehicles ( you'll note they all have the same license plate which was my assigned plate for the year).

Silver Daytona Truck - Copper was the preferred color with dealers so we had a batch of silver ones in sales bank . Note: many dealers who received them new or bought them used at the auction took off the wings but left the Daytona stripe on them (Probably a bunch in dealer attics or sold on ebay). Many customers didn't see the wing as pratical for a pickup truck

Blue Magnum SRT -  My last company car. Also a bank unit picked off of a two page list. I really wanted a black one but that color was gone when it was my turn to pick. I got a black one on the second round but never got to drive it since it showed up a couple of days before I retired. Only got to drool over it. It was bad to the bone. Yes, they are a sub 5 second 0-60 vehicles with my best of 4.96 per the onboard computer. ( and the Magnums are the heaviest of the 3 SRT's)

Viper - This was a quality buyback for an engine casting problem. The engine had to be pulled and sent off to Detroit for repair, dynoed then reinstalled. Had to be test driven to confirm repairs. 2 weeks as a daily driver.

Black SRT Viper Truck.   - This one got diverted from Dealer inventory back into corporate bank inventory . I remember one corporate meeting and there must have been 2 dozen of them in the parking lot. $52,000 pickup trucks that had window stickers of 9 city and 12 highway (I think) didn't sell in high volume especially when gas went out of site. Check ebay and you can buy one for $20,000 today.   Most pumps would only allow $75 at a time and you had to swipe the card 2X's to fill them up with Premium.  All of the 4 door viper trucks were automatics - 2 doors were viper manual trans.

My father took the black bumble bee stripe off of his sunfire yellow Charger 500 company car. He liked the flush grille and flush rear window and the 440 auto ( with air) but the stripe " drew too much attention "  . Who ever got that car might be saying - but it was coded for a stripe!!

The moral to this story is sometimes unusual things happen to sell a vehicle.

Below are the vehicles discussed above.

Tom

[hemigeno]

Is there any tangible proof that the EXACT Daytona that parts were reportedly removed from is actually 390018?  

The photos of this car pre-restoration do not seem to support the story.  

Considering that 390018 was shipped to St. Ann Dodge, and I think Ralph W. remembered its color combination (that's what I thought was the case, anyway), AND the fact that Tony & Mike documented the car to have the parts-department grille screen, AND the "before" photos appear to show white paint on the side of the nosecone with different patina than its adjacent fender paint (both would have been prepped and painted at the same time with the same gun at Creative when originally installed) it seems most plausible to me that the car had a different nosecone installed fairly early in its life.  I agree, the "before" photos of Tony's car show that the nose has been on there a long time - but that doesn't negate Mr. Wiedner's recollections IMHO.

Incidentally, I'm not throwing rocks at Tony's car with the statement about the grille screen.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with having the honeycomb pattern grille screen if it's tied into the story of modifications made by the dealership... the same way my car's warranty replacement engine block is 10x more appropriate than a "date correct" block even if it were unstamped... I'd leave the grillescreen just the way it was at the 'Nats, and embrace the car's unique position in wingcar folklore.  Right now, I'm not sure that another Daytona exists which was given the same treatment as Tony's was back then.  

[Aero426]

I am going to put aside the importance of which car it is or isn't for just a moment.  

Until earlier today, I did not realize that the location of the dealer was in metro St Louis, not some back water location.    Forget about who said what happened in 1970, or the accusation of calling someone a liar, because that isn't the deal here.  I acknowledge there were some strange circumstances surrounding wing car sales.   But I find it difficult to believe that in a market of over one MILLION people, that at the absolute height of the performance market, that a Dodge dealer around the corner from the zone office could not manage to find ONE sucker to unload a Daytona to, even at a blowout price.   We're talking five hundred cars here nationally, not two thousand.  

If you told me the car had been lot damaged, I could accept that.  

If you told me the original owner requested the change, I could accept that.    

If you tell me it was because you couldn't sell the car, I would say you need better sales people.  

[held1823]

everything that doug just stated, along with this.

dealerships are in business for one simple reason; to make money. spending hundreds of dollars on parts and labor to undo a daytona would have cost the dealership more than simply discounting the car. the daytona package was a steal, priced not much higher than a standard charger r/t. offer the daytona for a few hundred dollars less than an r/t, and someone would bite. either scenario would lose money, but one is a hell of a lot easier to accomplish. produce a photograph or first-hand corrobation showing that the dealership took the hard way out.

the dealership that our daytona came from would have gladly swapped a charger r/t for a daytona. our car sat there for a week, until dad got back to indiana to pick it up. during that time, the dealership had potential buyers asking them to sell the car out from under dad, or at least locate another daytona for them. surely this car, just 300 miles away, would have came up on the radar. in my opinion, a good zone sales representative should have been "shopping" the car to his counterparts, to help the original dealer move it off their lot.

[richRTSE]

AND the "before" photos appear to show white paint on the side of the nosecone with different patina than its adjacent fender paint (both would have been prepped and painted at the same time with the same gun at Creative when originally installed) it seems most plausible to me that the car had a different nosecone installed fairly early in its life.

         

[JB400]

Nosecone matches the door, and neither one matches the quarter or the fender. ?

[A383Wing]

fender matches the lower valance, I can't tell what the hood matches

Bryan