Car not stopping as it should:

[Captain D]

Hi all,

This newbie had a question about the brakes of our 69' Charger if we could ask please,

Basically, in a nutshell, everything is brand new: New drums all around, hardware, shoes, lines, rear axle seals, differential gasket and oil, master cylinder, power brake-booster, etc. The guy at the body shop was puzzled simply because everything is new, but the car still isn't stopping as it should. You really need to stand on the pedal - even w/ the new booster - and everything is bled, fitted, adjusted w/ the brake adjustor, etc. just as it should. They even used Emory paper to lightly clean up any grease or film off the shoes with still no real change. The only - and I mean the only - thing that they can come up with is that the brand of brake shoes aren't the most expensive (name brand: 'Wear-Ever,' from Advanced Auto Parts) and to replace them with a better quality shoe like Wagner/Raybestos and to ensure a good fitment.

However, another friend of mine believed that the type of brake shoe shouldn't matter and merely suggested to simply drive it and to allow the brakes to be 'broken in' and adjust the brake adjuster 2-3 more times if necessary. But, we are questioning whether something like this is if even possible to be 'broken in' - especially since we're reluctant to even take it out on the road to be 'broken in' to begin with considering the fact that going over 35-40 MPG would be unsafe if we had to throw on the brakes for whatever reason. We consulted another friend of ours and he seems to think that its almost like a vacuum issue. But, our new booster already has a check valve installed, and appears to be a good fitment overall. Any other suggestions w/ regards to the vacuum lines by chance and do you feel that we should swap out the brake shoes with a better quality name brand?

Here is the booster that we have:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Remanufactured-Power-Brake-Booster-Cardone_3821757-P_250_R|GRPBRHYAMS_____

And master cylinder:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Remanufactured-Brake-Master-Cylinder-Cardone_18350491-P_230_R|GRPBRHYAMS_____

Thank you again for your time for any and all input,
Aaron

[Cooter]

Um,  We have discs now. Swap that outdated crap.

[resq302]

Well, if you want to retain the original stuff as it was built, it might take some time if the shoes are new to wear in and such.  I know on our chally vert with manual drums, they did not feel good at first but after time, they started feeling better.  All new shoes and drums were all machined.  Is it possible that you have the correct master cylinder OR that (and I know this is true for factory disc brake cars) that the push rod coming out from the booster might need to be adjusted a little.

[bobs66440]

With new brakes you shouldn't have to stand on them to stop. There is a break-in period but it isn't that complicated. Check to make sure the booster isn't leaking internally. I got a brand new one and it was a leaker. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's good! Also, make sure the engine is making enough vacuum to supply the booster. General rule is 18 in Hg, but I have run with 15. Others with less.

Brake shoes/compound can make a huge difference also. I had a '70 Mustang and put expensive pads on. It didn't stop for crap. I replaced them with chep ones from Autozone and it damn near put me through the windshield.

[Captain D]

Thank you for the replies gents,

We'll definitely write down your suggestions. As a side note - not sure if this is relevant or not - but on the vacuum wiring harness, there are a few open-ended lines (not connecting to anything) and one in particular that ran to the actuator of the headlights. Since there are no clamps on the check valve/hose from the booster to the intake, perhaps I can put two hoses on to see if that'll prevent any leakage, as well as plugging in the open-ended vacuum hoses until we can find out exactly where they are supposed to go.

Thanks again and I'll test this theory out and see what I come up with,
Aaron 

[b5blue]

Check engine vacuum at idle. Is there much peddle movement, how far is the peddle moving? Are all 4 shoe sets adjusted till the "just drag"? New drums and shoes should be a very close radius match, break in would be minimal. You press on the peddle after each adjustment to re center the shoes for more adjusting.
  I run all drum (The small drum's at that.) and with everything working right you can lock up all 4 drums very easily. It's very sensitive with no effort needed. (Disks just give you repeated extreme braking by dissipating heat better.)
  If you got a new remanufactured booster from A-1 Cardone it's most likely that as I have found they suck mostly.
Post pics of your booster as it may even be the wrong one. It should be a "Midland/Ross type.   
There is an adjustable nut on the end of the boosters output plunger and you should have a cast plate with a rubber seal mounted to it between the master and the booster. The cast plate is a spacer with a built to it seal and the rounded head nut is for adjusting the boosters plunger to be just shy of hitting the master cylinders piston (Inside that pistons hole in the center.) with it "at rest" at the rear of the master cylinder. If it's too short you will have too much peddle travel and too long and the master cylinder will not reset for a full stroke.

[bobs66440]

Well, I can say for sure if you have active unplugged vacuum hoses, that would be most if not all your problem. Plug those hoses and see what happens.  Your engine will run a whole lot better too.  

[Captain D]

Thanks guys for the responses once more,

b5blue - Thank you for the detailed info - we'll be testing a lot of this material out on Wednesday when we go to the shop. I'll print this info up and take it along w/ me.

Bobs66440 - That's exactly what we did. We plugged those active vacuum hoses up to test it out and actually, the brakes did improve. They're still not 100%, but better with those vacuum lines not drawing power away from the booster.

But, some of those vacuum lines went, of course, to the actuators of the headlights doors. The crazy thing is that, even when the button for the headlights is off, those vacuum lines will still work to open up the headlight doors of the grille when the car is simply started each and every time. So, those vacuum lines are always 'on' even when the button is off - all you have to do is simply start the car and they come up, lol. To stop this, I had to unplug the vacuum lines from the actuators and they are one of the lines that are plugged to:

1.) Stop the headlight doors from keep popping up,
2.) To then plug these lines so that it doesn't keep stealing vacuum power away from the booster/brakes.

So, a lot of our problem appears to be vacuum related stuff (but not ruling out the booster necessarily) and trying to find out why all of the vacuum lines to the headlight doors are always 'on' even when the button is off.
Thanks again,
Aaron  

[Chryco Psycho]

the headlight system has a reserve canister so it will always draw some vacuum , in your case the headlight switch seems to be faulty not only keeping reserve vacuum but failing to close vacuum to the actuators that open the doors .The headlight vacuum should come off the Tree at the rear of the manifold where the brakes also take their vacuum .

[Captain D]

Thank you Chryco-Psycho for your input,

After work this evening, I did a quick search on the headlight switch that you had noted.

There seemed to be a variety to choose from, but having never replaced anything like this before, are there any suggestions or recommendations on which type of headlight switch to use? For example, Advance Auto had a price range from $2.99 up to $25 roughly. I have a brand new/complete forward light harness from Year One, if that helps in narrowing down what switch to get.

Also, when you stated that, "The headlight vacuum should come off the Tree at the rear of the manifold where the brakes also take their vacuum," once we go to install a new headlight switch - does it get installed directly on the same line that runs to the booster at some point or is there another location where it is to go? The only reason why I'm curious to know exactly its location is simply because its so tight in that area of the motor and any info on where best to look, much more install, in that area would be greatly appreciated when we go to actually doing the work...

In the meantime, we'll just keep those vacuum lines plugged (if it doesn't affect/damage anything else) just so that we can have some descent brakes until we tackle this fix,  .

Thank you again for your time and guidance,
Aaron

 

[resq302]

The vacuum line that goes from the vacuum "coffee can looking" canister goes to the back side of the intake manifold.  There should be a fitting with more than one nipple coming off of it.  Should attach to the same fitting as what the vacuum line for your power brake booster should.

[Captain D]

Hi,

We checked the back of the intake manifold and there was no sign of any other nipple/cone to which another line could have run to as far as we can tell. The intake that we have is an Edelbrock Performer RPM, but this intake shouldn't make a difference (but we didn't see any other nipple/cone).

There is only one vacuum line that would be able to be run in the back, and that is for the booster. With that being said:

1.) Is there any other location where another vacuum line can run, other than the back of the intake?
2.) And, there is no vacuum canister anywhere on the car.

So, it appears that my problem is that I'm missing the vacuum canister not only for the headlight assembly to work properly, but also for the power brakes as well. With being new at this, would you feel that this canister would be worthy to get or would you recommend something else altogether? ( I have a 383, 4 brrl motor with electronic ignition, non- A/C).

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/COMP-Cams-Black-Powder-Coated-Aluminum-Vacuum-Canister/_/N-26d0?itemIdentifier=85927_0_0_

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/COMP-Cams-Zinc-Plated-and-Polished-Aluminum-Vacuum-Canister/_/N-26d0?itemIdentifier=85929_0_0_

Any replies would be great because even when I get a vacuum canister, it is still unsure where the line can be ran to on the intake.
All the best,
Aaron

[bill440rt]

Aaron, I did a quick search on Ebay for one, there weren't any which I thought was odd.
Charger Specialties sells them repro, this is the vacuum canister you need (second part down):

http://chargerspecialties.com/vacuum.htm

[resq302]

Aaron,

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, however, it would not be correct as when I got my charger, they had the vacuum line for the headlight canister tapped into an incorrect power brake booster check valve.  So, yes, it can be done, but would not be "correct".

2) Did you check for a black painted coffee can type looking cylinder under your battery tray?  Reproductions are available and have the correct check valve in them as well.  the main reason for the vacuum tank was so you would be able to turn your headlights off and have the doors close even after you turned the car off.

However, I would not attribute your poor braking conditions to the lack of the missing vacuum canister for your headlight system.  What you need is the typical charger vacuum tee.  It should probably look like your main one that you have with a large nipple going straight up and then should have a thinner, smaller one (about 1/8" diameter) which branches off from the stem area of the main nipple bending up like another stem on a flower.

Hope that helps.

[Chryco Psycho]

there would have been a tree at the back of the factory intake with 1 large 3/8 fitting & 1-2 more 1/8-1/4" connections .
As far a brake break in yes that is true , the shoes should be profiled so the whole surface touches the drum but they never do , pull a drum off & take a look , once the full shoe contacts the brakes will be better  not that drum were ver good especially on the second hard stop !!   

[Captain D]

Thank you gents for the added replies - all of your info is very much appreciated, helpful, and respected 

resq302 - I checked under the battery tray before work this evening and still no vacuum canister. I scoured the entire engine bay and nothing. I'll be sure to order one ASAP (thanks Bill for the link!). When you noted that yours "had the vacuum line for the headlight canister tapped into an incorrect power brake booster check valve (but not period-correct)," I feel that I may have to go this route myself simply because I have no 'tree' at the back of the intake - there is only one line and that goes to the booster.  I checked both sides of the car, even popped the hood to check from the back with a good flashlight, and felt around the area and there is no 'tree.' If you happen to have any tips on this type of installation that will be great. As a side note, I don't know if there is supposed to be two small hose clamps on the line that runs from the intake to the booster or not, but mine doesn't have any - maybe it won't hurt to put them on to prevent any possible leakage...?

Overall, the brakes are better now that the vacuum lines are clamped off but they are still a bit too hard to push in order to get the car to stop comfortably (even w/ the booster). I'll be heading over to the shop tomorrow and will relay a lot of this material that has been stated throughout this thread on to them.

Thank you again for your time and I'll be sure to check back in to report back how things went,
Aaron

[resq302]

Aaron,

I will have to check but I might still have that "incorrect" double nipple booster check valve.  I will send you a PM if I locate it.  Also, will you be out to Carlisle?

Brian

[Dino]

The vacuum line that goes from the vacuum "coffee can looking" canister goes to the back side of the intake manifold.  There should be a fitting with more than one nipple coming off of it.  Should attach to the same fitting as what the vacuum line for your power brake booster should.

I have a third vacuum line on mine, I guess it's for the a/c.

Captain, the eddy intakes don't have that fitting I think, mine came off of the original manifold so you should be able to find one easily.

[resq302]

some place like a search or post in moparts.com should yield you some good results.  If I come across one at Carlisle, ill pick it up for you.

[Captain D]

Hi there Brian,

Yes, I'm definitely planning on being at Carlisle - cutting the vacation a lil' short just so that I don't miss it,  . Most likely, I'll be there on Sunday, July 8th. If I know what to look for exactly, I will do my very best to see if I can locate it, but if you happen to come across what I may need please let me know and I'll try to find you - I can give you my cell # and we can go from there - thanks man!  

As for today's results w/ regards to the brakes - the mechanic (the second one to offer an opinion thus far) noted that there is excellent vacuum coming from the booster, and with my plugging up any extra open-ended vacuum lines to the headlight doors he said that everything should be fine; especially considering that everything is new/replaced. So, in a nutshell, he was stumped why you have to push rather hard on the pedal in order to get the car to fully stop,  . The first mechanic who had worked on my car two weeks ago came over and insisted that its the type of shoes and believed that the brake shoes are only hitting top and bottom, but not the middle of the pad to get a good stop fitment. Mechanic #2 mostly contested with mechanic #1 about it and that's as far as I got today. However, we're going to try another third opinion this Saturday morning at another shop and we'll try it again. They're really good, so I probably should have went w/ this shop first perhaps. I'll certainly relay all of the information in this thread to them as well.

As a side note, maybe I should post this under the wiring section too, but they suggested having a certain blue/green wire that is attached to the firewall, and to the left of the booster, 'cleaned' (I believe they called it a "points resister"). If this wire doesn't get a good connection, it won't allow the car to start. They said that mine should be cleaned just in case it doesn't get a good connection and will then not allow the car to turn over. I'll get some more info on this particular wire if its called something else (didn't have a pen on me at the time), but in the meantime do you guys know how to clean a wire up w/out having to remove it altogether?  

Thank you again for your time guys and any info on how best to clean this particular wire would be great,
All the best,
Aaron    

[b5blue]

Aaron that is a starter relay.

[Captain D]

b5blue - Thank you for your message. If I may ask further, what is the best way/cleaner to use in order to clean up this starter relay properly?

Thanks again,
Aaron

[resq302]

If it is just corroded with rust, I would try a little bit of either steel wool or a metal brush.  Either brass or steel bristles should work depending on how crusty it is.  For my cars, any kind of electrical connection would get a dab of dielectric grease to deter any kind of corrosion and ensure a good contact.

[b5blue]

  If it were me I'd replace the relay, they are cheap insurance. Emory paper used lightly cleans the flat ring connectors nice. As mentioned sealing everything prevents future problems. I do highly recommend Caig Labs DeOxIt D-100 and their Gold Protector for any and all connections. (Available from Techni-Tool or Radio Shack.) 
  I have a topic on cleaning connectors with a solution of salt and vinegar you could find in the "search" feature also. 

[Captain D]

Thanks again guys for the tips!

b5blue - I'm on my way to check out the link,  .

The blue/green wire has the imprint 'Fusible Link' on it, but I don't see any evident corrosion on either it or the actual relay that it is attached to. But, we'll certainly see if we can simply disconnect it and do a cleaning in order to maintain a good connection,  .

As we try to wrap up this brake issue w/ the car, I just wanted to thank everyone for posting in this thread - there is a lot of good info and this newbie enjoys learning about this stuff so that I can maintain my car 

High regards,
Aaron

[b5blue]

Good luck Aaron!