505 stroker Kits

[john108]

I am back to looking into building a 505 stroked 440 for my '68 charger.

I am aware of the 440source stroker kits.  They advertise very well on their site.  I am trying to evaluate their kit compared to the one on the muscle motors web site. 
It appears that muscle motors may use more US made parts and holds tighter tolerances for fit as well as crankshaft tolerances.  They claim to balance to 0.2 grams where 440source refers to about 2 grams or better.  But I am comparing advertisements against advertisements.

Has anyone here compared these kits, has first hand knowledge, or an opinion comparing these two stroker kits.
Thank you
John

[Challenger340]

Both Kits use Chinese Forging parts, I've seen both.
and with either Kit,
you should have a competent performance Engine Machine Shop in your area check the tolerances/sizings.

You will probably require a Block to be Machined/Bored/Honed etc., anyways ? So not a bad idea to get "personal" with a Performance style Machine Shop in your area anyways,
which incidentally,
you may wish to ask the Shop what they can supply the 505 Kit for ??

Just saying....
I'm a "performance" Machine Shop in bum-fawk Canada in the middle of no-wheres-ville, and I can access those Kits from Eagle or DRM, BALANCED and delivered to my Door here by Purolator....
for $1,736.
too far away for you....
but,
ANY "Performance" type Machine Shop in YOUR AREA should be able to give you the same pricing on that Kit, that the Source or MM are advertising, with the added benefit of some continuity with you as a Customer, if they are also doing some Block Machining.

[John_Kunkel]

Claiming to balance within .2 grams is a nice advertising gimmick but, with the amount of oil flailing around inside the motor, it doesn't mean much.

I helped a friend install a 440Source 505 kit in a 400 block and the fit and finish were spot on.

[Cooter]

Compared to what? Selling a kit that isn't balanced at all? Then, there'd be those on here that b*tch about how the "Chinese" kits aren't balanced. I'd rather have it balanced to within .2 Grams, than have it shake like a b*tch when it fired up due to spending a few dollars less on a cheap kit that wasn't balanced at all.

In the beginning, there were those who complained about the "Chinese" Eagle kits. "Buy American" they said...You know what a crank from Kellogg, Calais (However it's spelled), etc. costs? Good grief, like $3000.00...Just for the crank!? Gimme Chinese anyday with some of the engines here making the power they make.

[Challenger340]

Make no mistake
There are definately quality differences between the Chinese and North American made parts....the N.A. made stuff being Far Better Machining quality.
Take a Micrometer to a Callies or Crower Crank.....then to the Eagle, etc., Crank Filets, deflection rates to the meatllurgy under EXTREME power applications...especially to harmonics viewed later when re-freshening competition engines....'nuff said.
Too bad that we are losing the North American Edge in Finese and manufacturing knowhow to the lowest common denominator.

that said,
nothing at all wrong with the Chinese made stuff for the vast majority, it'll work fine...just make sure to have the sizings/machining present checked thoroughly,
and,
the $100 balance job is just that...but again, who cares for the vast majority at those power levels, as is said...."Shiat WILL run"

[Cooter]

It's always been, always is, and always will be about the Lowest common denominator..... MONEY. NO way that Kellogg Crank needs to cost that much to produce. It's MY opinion that because you have things like 401K's, paying three prices for the metal, paying three prices for the labor to machine, etc. is why "Buy AMerican" is going by the wayside. Too many folks here in the good ol USA are needing things like Greedy Summer Homes in Aspen, three boats, four Mercedes Benz, along with fifteen Classic musclecars in the garage, is why things cost more here.


Chinese stuff may not have the exact tolerances as the American, but they don't seem to be as preoccupied with Greed like Americans. Stands to reason, they have a hold on the market.

[Challenger340]

It's always been, always is, and always will be about the Lowest common denominator..... MONEY. NO way that Kellogg Crank needs to cost that much to produce. It's MY opinion that because you have things like 401K's, paying three prices for the metal, paying three prices for the labor to machine, etc. is why "Buy AMerican" is going by the wayside. Too many folks here in the good ol USA are needing things like Greedy Summer Homes in Aspen, three boats, four Mercedes Benz, along with fifteen Classic musclecars in the garage, is why things cost more here.


Chinese stuff may not have the exact tolerances as the American, but they don't seem to be as preoccupied with Greed like Americans. Stands to reason, they have a hold on the market.

LOL !
We're not supposed to talk politics Cooter, but I believe you may have a pretty valid point regarding the 2 systems ?

Where exactly, in the American Constitution, does it say America has to be a "Capitalist" system anyways ?

[Cooter]

Challenger340, I find many of your posts to informative and enlightening. Therefore, I add very little in that regard. However, Here, I only offered a reason why the stroker kits like many other things in this country, are typically overpriced. Many will pay three prices for a Mercedes when a Toyota is IMO, a better car. I believe the same is true with these stroker cranks. While I'm sure the US stuff is manufactured to a higher tolerance, I have a hard time believing that All that difference in price is in the Machine labor. Just me. Many will and do overpay because they tend to think if it costs more, it MUST be better.

[splicer]

...Balanced Eagle stroker kit in my 505....fit was perfect and block only required clearancing by oil pickup boss...been in for 2000 miles and 40 quarter mile trips....was around $1,800.00 CDN in 2011...

Splicer

[John_Kunkel]

Compared to what? Selling a kit that isn't balanced at all? Then, there'd be those on here that b*tch about how the "Chinese" kits aren't balanced. I'd rather have it balanced to within .2 Grams, than have it shake like a b*tch when it fired up due to spending a few dollars less on a cheap kit that wasn't balanced at all.

A little over-dramatic aren't we? BTW, the 440Source kits are balanced stateside and you ain't gonna feel a couple of grams in the seat of your pants.

[Challenger340]

Compared to what? Selling a kit that isn't balanced at all? Then, there'd be those on here that b*tch about how the "Chinese" kits aren't balanced. I'd rather have it balanced to within .2 Grams, than have it shake like a b*tch when it fired up due to spending a few dollars less on a cheap kit that wasn't balanced at all.

A little over-dramatic aren't we? BTW, the 440Source kits are balanced stateside and you ain't gonna feel a couple of grams in the seat of your pants.
[/quote

Nope, never gonna feel it in the seat of your pants, thats for sure john...
but,
we can tell a source balance job EVERY-TIME on the Dyno ! We can FEEL it on the floor, no joke here, ask other Dyno Shops.

Source do NOT balance 8 Rods top & bottom,
Source do NOT balance 8 Pistons
if within a few grams, they just sorta "average" for a top end weight, "average" for a bottom end weight, "average" on the pistons,
then stack tolerances for a Bobweight and spin up the Crank....
I have weighed their stuff and spun up plenty of their Cranks against their supplied Bobweight sheets(out of curiosity)
hey,
it's close enough I guess, they seem to run just fine for those that don't know any better....
Just saying,
it is NOT the same QUALITY Balance Job done at Performance Shops and that costs more....

It is a $100 Balance Job, to be just good enough, plain & simple.

[john108]

We all have the same concerns.  I have copied the discussion from Muscle Motors on how they balance their stroker kits.  What are your thoughts on what they claim to do?

The Balancing Process
First, all of the big ends of the connecting rods are equalized. On modern connecting rods this is usually between 2 and 3 grams. This may not seem like a lot, but if you are paying to get your kit balanced, you should get it balance
correctly. Big ends are now all within .2 of a gram, and the small ends are now equalized. After the rods are completed the pistons are all equalized to the same .2 gm tolerance. I have seen some companies advertise the fact that they establish bob weights down to the tenth of a gram. They also only measure one rod and one piston to obtain these numbers. Unless all of the rods and all of the pistons are then equalized to the same tolerance
(not the factory + or - 2 to 3 gram tolerance) this "accuracy" is lost. I was taught when I first started machining
engine components "it takes just as much effort to do something wrong as it does to do it right. SO DO IT RIGHT!" Having a bob weight measured down to a tenth of a gram and then accepting a companies + or – spec of 2-3 grams never made any sense to me?
In the balancing process there is reciprocating weight and rotating weight. Just like the names sound like, reciprocating weight are things that go up and down. These are parts like: the small end of the rod, piston, wrist pin, sprio locks, and piston rings. Rotating weight components are the big end of the rod and the rod bearing.
There is a formula for determining the balance bob weight (these are the weights bolted to the crank. This assimilates the forces on the crank during crankshaft balancing) using big end and small end weights separately
hence the need for balancing each end of the rod independently. The bob weights are then set to a specific weight and bolted to the crank. The crank is now spun to 500 RPM's and our Hines Computerized crank balancer tells the operator where to remove weight. This process is repeated
until the same <.2 of a gram tolerance is established.
Now that the crank is balanced we measure the journals for sizing and taper. We mark where the taper is most pronounced and the crank is then micro polished. We do this as the last step because very minor marking of the journals can occur during the balancing process. This additional step ensures you not only a premium rod and main journal finish, but also journals that do not have taper that will not carving of bearings to "make it work"

[Challenger340]

Yep, that would be a correct interpretation for doing the Pistons & Rods....more then one way to skin a cat
Now,
who's bolting YOUR SPECIFIC Harmonic Balancer and Flexplate/Flywheel on either end before doing the Crank ??

"Supposed" to be zero right ?....WRONG !

I know it's "Internal Balance", or supposed to be, no matter, because it's the distance OUT from the Crank that matters more even for supposedly(not)"neutral" parts bolted on later....
Should even be using the exact lower timing gear/oil slinger, with the harmonic Balancer, that will be used on THAT rotating assembly(yes, the thicknesses may be different) to get the imbalance correct.

IMO
You should NEVER attempt to correct a crank journal "taper" by a "POLISHING", absolutely FALLACY !
If anybody is taking anymore than .0001-.0002" ten-thousandths off by polishing, .....well.....lets just say..... I disagree with that practise vehemently.

I don't believe MM are removing anymore than .0001" either, they have too good a reputation for THAT garbage, it's just a "salesmans" blurb....

[c00nhunterjoe]

So whose kits are better? 440 source or muscle motors? Or do both of their parts come from the same plant in china?

[john108]

Challenger340
The following paragraph discusses the Muscle Motors micro polishing of the journals.  They charge $200 extra for it rather than giving you a crank that doesn't need it.

OK, now back to the taper issue. You have established your wrist pin, rod and main bearing clearance but what do you do if the crank has taper? Carve on the bearings? Yes that will work but let's cure the problem not the symptom! Fixing taper: if a crank has taper it means that the journal ramps up at the edges. You can not simply "polish" it out with a traditional crankshaft
polisher. A traditional polishing belt just follows the surface that was made by the grinding wheel. UNLESS of course you have what is called a micropolisher. Not all micropolishers are the same. Ours is designed with what is called a shoe to support the back of the polishing belt. The shoe is a mirror shape of what the journal should look like. A perfectly flat bearing surface that transitions in to a .125 radius. The abrasive belt (very fine grit) runs between the journal and the shoe. Because of the support of the shoe, the polishing belt will remove more material from higher pressure points (taper) and leave us with a mirror like < 1 RA finish. So now we have a superior journal finish AND have removed the tapper from the journal AND maintained our standard size with NO carving on bearings!

The link to their discussion is below

http://musclemotorsracing.com/muscle-mike-blog/122-stroker-kits-101.html

[XH29N0G]

Don't want to hijack this, but I have a question about the balancing procedure described above.  I know nothing about balancing so I will ask.  The balancing is done a 500 RPM.

How does the amplification of force with higher RPM work? and how does 0.2 gram at 500 RPM compare with what is done in other situations?