Cheap Clear or NO?

[superbirdtom]

like ive said    the other brands some of them are good some are not as good  i said matrix is good as it was a chemist, so ive been told ,quit ppg and started his own line. and i would totally trust matrix.  our jobber sent us a gallon of shopline  and I tried it out on a couple bumper covers and beater cars.  thats the last I would  use it.  The photo i sent in was of MIPA clear.  and it is good . and their primer is some of the best ive used.  and very reasonable on their price.   Theirs  guys here on a budget and if a Pro like some of us are are reccommending cheaper products.

      also even pros are stuck with cheap ass clients  who want to flip a car. and the painter has to make a choice to either make some money on a bid  or make not much.  so they go to cheaper products.   Napa   which is sherwin williams  used to have a yellow  highbuild  primer. it was a great primer.   then they stopped using it   grrr.  Our shop used ppg  all the way through.  but you get sick of the 6000 dollara month material bill.  and were trying to find  cheaper stuff but still have some quality.  If any pro would ever try the MIPA 2k high build primer  you would not be dissappointed.   I switched about 2 -3 months ago.  and will never go back to anything else.    price and how thick it is and impossible to run makes this  painter a believer.   .   Our shop has been around  for 30 years . the only problem weve ever had was an old  water spewing  chugging compressor. but thaat was fixed long ago..    it rains  200+ inches here a year.  so we have to make sure that our work holds out. But I did paint in california too. and sun is the enemy there.  and in arizona.

  Its funny coming  from a rainy place to see every car looking like that dodge truck like it was in arizona and cracked dashes and vinyl tops  shredded  to bits.   If I lived and painted in phoenix,  I don't know  any car that will stand up to that torture.  unless its sterling or awlgrip.

[hemi-hampton]

I've used Matrix many times. Since they first came out in the 90's & still got my old 90's Matrix t shirt. Matrix made in Michigan right around the corner from my House. I know some of the big Matrix Distributors in the area. Working in many different body shops they are all trying to cut cost by moving from the high priced quality stuff to the lower budget Cheaper paints. The cheap paint is fine on a used car lot car or low budget earl scheib job. For me, it's not OK. I never did like it. WHY, because ever since I stopped using the good stuff & was sometimes forced to use the cheap stuff that's when I noticed I was more likely to run into problems. It's ok my paint is flaking on my POS truck. My Point is do you want this garbage on your 68 Charger or any older Musclecar? LEON.

P.S. Matrix may of gotten better over the years but when they first came out they had problems & bugs to work out. Being in the middle of this left a bad taste in my mouth. Kinda like how the Prophet paint scanner sucked when it first came out.

[elitecustombody]

I'd like to hear the problems you speak of that you supposedly had with Matrix   

Maybe I haven't been in autobody & paint industry long enough to know what works?(only 23 years,21 of them running my own shop)

I can honestly say that I have never had not even one car come back because of product failure .I've used Matrix on countless brand new cars that were still in plastic for a local dealership as well as many show cars. If there was even a hint of possible product failure ,do you think I would be using it for this long? 

Just because something is overpriced,it doesn't mean it's better than product from small name company.   

[superbirdtom]

Talking about overpriced we just brought on the dbc paint line  still have the dbu too.  and we just paid 300 dollars for the dbc white toner  yikes.  plus when you look up a formula in dbc theirs up to 10 different variences and a prime.  they never match.,  and if your spraying a bright red , i looked up both dbu and dbc formulas and the old dbc system had half as much 654 scarlet red toner ,their brightest red toner. and the new dbc system took twice as much dbu's brightest red .  which is close to 250 dollars per quart.   Now why does the new system take more of one of the most expensive toners?  My theory is that theyre using less pigments.  same goes for the whole line.    To Me dbc is their way to make more money.

       In autobody repair news  they used to have a guy  charles wein  who would answer your paint questions totally unbiased.  I would like to go to a site where they break down all the paints and their pigment content and their uv protection and have a place where us painters can go to realy read the technology behind every brand, instead of arguing on here.   We have a NAPA store here and they used to make a super glamour clear and that stuff was like duponts  2000s clear it was just bullet proof from acid rain etc.  but they stopped making it.  basically  being also an aircraft painter I used a lot of true polyurethane.  AWLGRIP -Sterling_ and others.  the difference was, once you paint it it dries so hard it cannot be polished. wheras with auto paint  you have to be able to polish it.   theirs a test called the skydrol test, where dried paint is cured and immersed in skydrol hydraulicfluid.  and some aircraft paint holds out to the test and thats the gold standard.  as on aircraft theirs always this fluid everywhere on aircraft of all types.  I wonder if theirs a test for auto paint like this out there?  

     anyways Ive used every product under the sun almost. and some manufactuers make one or two good products. the rest ok or junk.   I can only call NAPA junk as Ive seen the results years later on their auto paint .  But then i used their aircraft nitram paint and its still holding up 25 years later.  I think if youve used some product for years and it works for you  and the price is good  why switch?

           

[hemi-hampton]

Can't remember all the problems I had over the years, just remember more redoes with cheap paint. Color match on cheaper paints not good. For example was working at a place where he used Sikkens. Sikkens expensive, so he also bought a Matrix mixing machine full of Tints. Had 2 to choose from. Had a tri stage candy red dodge come into shop needing front clip blended. Mixed up the Matrix, did a spray out & did spray out not even close. SO, Mixed up sikkens & better but not close enough. Then called Painters supply down road & had them mix me up some PPG. Did a spray out & matched. I had a spay out card divided into 6 different section, 3 different paints each with a base & then a candy. All 3 paints on sprayout different colors. Main problem was base varied greatly from orangish red to pinkish red ect. At another shop boss had PPG. But to expensive, so one day he buys a red Matrix tint. I put on mixing machine & he says whoaaa, get that off of there. He say's poor it into the old PPG can. I say why. Ends up he don't want the PPG salesman coming in & seeing his paints being replaced since he has a contracted with him. SO, I open the can to poor in & noticed the tints which are suppose to be the same are 2 totally different red tints. And I say to myself how the hell is paint suppose to match when so different. Another time at PPG store buying paint when a guy walks in wanting cheap shopline. Tells salesmen he's going to panel paint front clip. Salesman says you can't panel paint with this, color will never match, you gotta blend. He say's why, Salesman tells him the cheaper paints have much less toners available to make the paint. SO, they are less accurate color match. SO, that explains some of the Promblems I've had before with color. BUT, If your allways doing completes like I did at Maaco then color match does not matter.  Also, when you work at a cheap body shop you do not run, you gotta do what the Boss say's, which alot of times is mixing different products together which I don't like to do which will run you into problems. If you work in 20 different body shops you get to see how things are done 20 different ways. If you worked in only 1 body for past 20 years then you only know 1 way to do things. LEON.

[elitecustombody]

If color match was the reason for your redos ,then blame yourself for not doing sprayouts.  Years ago I started doing work for local dealership on all their brand new cars that just came off a boat or were damaged in transit and wanted paint that match. I have  used just about every brand of paint from Sikkens to Spies Hecker, Glasurit, ICI,PPG,Dupont,Sherwin Williams and could never find one that had consistent color match,though Ultra7000 from Sherwin Williams matched pretty good on most cars, the coverage just wasn't there. Needless to say ,after trying to use just about every overpriced brand available ,I came to conclusion that there is absolutely no reason for me to waste money and get same results as I get with Matrix.I can tell you that on few occasions Matrix had perfect match with panel painting on some weird colors that have a lot of flop.One in particular late 90's Cadillac STS with cocoa pearl color,it was dead on perfect match from any angle. I think there is also one silver color that matches perfect on mid-late 90's Honda and the formula has only one toner. I agree that color match is not the best,but based on my experiences with other brands they are not any better either. But I'm all ears to know about Matrix failures

[hemi-hampton]

OK, You got me. Matrix is the best paint out there. Excuse me for being wrong. Just disregard everything I say, I have no clue what I'm talking about. LATER

[Silver R/T]

Getting back to subject. I've used Sherwin Williams cheap base/clear (not sure which one it is now, need to look it up) on my daily driver and it's still holding up great 5+ years later. I don't wax this car and leave it outside in rain/frost/heat. Still looks decent and could pass for OEM finish.

[hemi-hampton]

Some of the work I do posted on our website. Check out the Auto Show Service, Vehicle Event Service, & my Favorite the Vehicle Customization. Our last paint supply bill was $55,000. LEON

http://www.qek.com/

[elitecustombody]

someone is getting reamed with no lube

[superbirdtom]

Getting back to subject. I've used Sherwin Williams cheap base/clear (not sure which one it is now, need to look it up) on my daily driver and it's still holding up great 5+ years later. I don't wax this car and leave it outside in rain/frost/heat. Still looks decent and could pass for OEM finish.

      sherwin williams  is not a great nor bad paint.  the stuff they make for NAPA is the problem   . they take all their old technology and give it to NAPA. I went upstairs to rheir three mixing  bases  and could smell acrylic enamel.  what they do is make this old acrylic enamel into basecoat.  and god does it stink.  just spray napa sometime and the fumes are horrible.  the car comes out of the booth and reeks ot the whole shop.  Plus ive never seen a company change their paints so often.   they keep trying new formulas bith new names and aditives . but its still the same ol acrylic enamel base that they convert.   

[superbirdtom]

Can't remember all the problems I had over the years, just remember more redoes with cheap paint. Color match on cheaper paints not good. For example was working at a place where he used Sikkens. Sikkens expensive, so he also bought a Matrix mixing machine full of Tints. Had 2 to choose from. Had a tri stage candy red dodge come into shop needing front clip blended. Mixed up the Matrix, did a spray out & did spray out not even close. SO, Mixed up sikkens & better but not close enough. Then called Painters supply down road & had them mix me up some PPG. Did a spray out & matched. I had a spay out card divided into 6 different section, 3 different paints each with a base & then a candy. All 3 paints on sprayout different colors. Main problem was base varied greatly from orangish red to pinkish red ect. At another shop boss had PPG. But to expensive, so one day he buys a red Matrix tint. I put on mixing machine & he says whoaaa, get that off of there. He say's poor it into the old PPG can. I say why. Ends up he don't want the PPG salesman coming in & seeing his paints being replaced since he has a contracted with him. SO, I open the can to poor in & noticed the tints which are suppose to be the same are 2 totally different red tints. And I say to myself how the hell is paint suppose to match when so different. Another time at PPG store buying paint when a guy walks in wanting cheap shopline. Tells salesmen he's going to panel paint front clip. Salesman says you can't panel paint with this, color will never match, you gotta blend. He say's why, Salesman tells him the cheaper paints have much less toners available to make the paint. SO, they are less accurate color match. SO, that explains some of the Promblems I've had before with color. BUT, If your allways doing completes like I did at Maaco then color match does not matter.  Also, when you work at a cheap body shop you do not run, you gotta do what the Boss say's, which alot of times is mixing different products together which I don't like to do which will run you into problems. If you work in 20 different body shops you get to see how things are done 20 different ways. If you worked in only 1 body for past 20 years then you only know 1 way to do things. LEON.

               My buddy is like you and I and old pro whos worked at a lot of shops  and a lot of paints. hetels me Standox  has dead on butt matches most of the time.  I would like to try that stuff sometime . ive heard from another friend  the same thing.  here theirs one shop a guy has worked at for 20  years and the only shop.  I stop by from time to time and B.S.   and look at what hes doing.  then try to give him some pointers . and he takes offense. the old  Ive been doing this for 20 years . yeah ok  but this is the only shop youve ever worked at.    so I finally convinced him to let me show him how  to blend a three stage white pearl,    boy was he happy as he struggled with that one for 10 years.    I like listening to everybody  cause you pick up things  from everyone.  I would change  whatever if its a better way or product and saves me time .

   I would like to say I discovered that I am an ace paint matcher . never sprayed out a letdown panel ever  have my own system.  Ive discovered some painters are kinda color blind .  I am also an artist who does portraits.  that hElps  just knowing what to add instinctivly  and with art school training.   But you are right working in lots of shops You pick up a lot along the way.  I like helping the novices on here   with simple talk.   thanks  for your input.

[elitecustombody]

Not pointing any fingers, but working at 20 different shops over 20 years doesn't exactly look great on anyone's resume.Just sayin..

[hemi-hampton]

If you worked in different body shops where they always screw you over you'd know why. How many guys come in here & complain how the body shop took there money & did not do any work or screwed them over, You hear it in here constantly. Now, If these Body shops screws all these customers over what do you think they do to there own employee's? SO, Your telling me if you worked at a body shop & had a $1,000 check coming Friday &  instead got a $300 check because boss is ripping you off you'd stay at these jobs? You probaby never had that happen. I came in here to give some Advise on Shop Line clears after someone suggested using it. They can look at my pics & decide for them selves. I did not come in here to argue with you & tell you life story on why I dont like cheap low budget paint or why I only like the big 3 PPG, Dupont, BASF. Now I know why some no longer Post advise in here. I post much less then I use to because I don't need to be Interogated, critisized, scrutinized & over analyzed. Really, just look at pic & decide what you want to Use. LEON.

[Hudson Hornet !]

Hemi Hampton and Superbird Tom,    I like you guys have been doing paint and body my whole life. I am 30 and did my first overall job at the tender age of 13 on an International Scout.  I now teach paint and body at a high school.  I also agree wholeheartedly about cheap products, as there is a reason some clear is $200 and other is $70.  I also understand that when you try to give advice and help people with what you know they sometimes do not want to listen. 

The thread was started to help people see how lower priced products hold up, and I am grateful to see that someone posted up for those who do not use these products every day.  Hemi-Hampton, kudos for doing the right thing.

As far as the color match discussion, my shop has switched to DuPont Cromax Pro waterborne.  I love the color match even on plastic bumper covers.  It is a little clumsy to blend, but the color match is so close you could almost panel paint instead of blending. Almost!!

[superbirdtom]

hey hudson. I my self  do not use crap clears.  maybe their cheaper than ppg.  but I really like this new MiPA clear i am using.  it is really a nice alternative for a middle priced and good clear.  I get samples from my jobber and heck ill try anything once .  but for now  until I see some kind of problem I will stick with it.  Their 2k primer is very god . much better than ppg k-36 . and 1/4 the price.  Good for you  you got a gravy job.  LOL.  I often thought of teaching a private crash course on basic body work or just auto refinishing.   

        I have never used waterborne.  but would like to try it sometime.   of course knowing ppg  it will probably be more expensive than anything theyve devised yet.    the prices never seem to go down.   Let me ask you, why does a new dbc ppg system over the older dbu system  take twice as much bright red toner for the same formula and ammount.   since your a teacher you must have all the answers.  .thanks  for chiding in.

[Hudson Hornet !]

Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is pompous.  I certainly do not claim to know it all.   As for the gravy job,  all I have to say is come try it.  I love what I do, but I work harder at this than any other job I have had.

As for the red toner, my guess would be that the formula for the toner changed.  After the tsunami in Japan a couple years ago, many of the toners and pigments were not available since they came from there.

Can't be sure, but if it requires twice as much as it used to something is watered down.....  

[elitecustombody]

If you worked in different body shops where they always screw you over you'd know why. How many guys come in here & complain how the body shop took there money & did not do any work or screwed them over, You hear it in here constantly. Now, If these Body shops screws all these customers over what do you think they do to there own employee's? SO, Your telling me if you worked at a body shop & had a $1,000 check coming Friday &  instead got a $300 check because boss is ripping you off you'd stay at these jobs? You probaby never had that happen. I came in here to give some Advise on Shop Line clears after someone suggested using it. They can look at my pics & decide for them selves. I did not come in here to argue with you & tell you life story on why I dont like cheap low budget paint or why I only like the big 3 PPG, Dupont, BASF. Now I know why some no longer Post advise in here. I post much less then I use to because I don't need to be Interogated, critisized, scrutinized & over analyzed. Really, just look at pic & decide what you want to Use. LEON.

Leon, you made contemptuous blanket statement that anything  that doesn't have PPG,DuPont or BASF label is garbage. You also stated that you had problems with Matrix and I wanted to know what were they.I wanted facts to confirm your problems with Matrix. And you're getting upset because I wanted to know the truth? Really? You didn't post any factual info ,so I simply came to defend the product I have been using for more than a decade without problems.  I do not come on here to stir a pot,but lend advice from my experience( search my posts on here) , I may not have as much of it as someone that has worked at 20 different shops in 20 years,but I think I know a enough to have a busy shop for 21 years and be able pay my bills 

[superbirdtom]

Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is pompous.  I certainly do not claim to know it all.   As for the gravy job,  all I have to say is come try it.  I love what I do, but I work harder at this than any other job I have had.

As for the red toner, my guess would be that the formula for the toner changed.  After the tsunami in Japan a couple years ago, many of the toners and pigments were not available since they came from there.

Can't be sure, but if it requires twice as much as it used to something is watered down.....  

thats whY i said LOl I don't envy you as i don't think i could put up with the students.  id probably flog them.oh  sorry mean for hudson hornet

[Hudson Hornet !]

Hey no problem,

Yeah, I used to think that teachers had it easy, now I understand you get the summers off so you don't blow a gasket!!!

[Silver R/T]

If you worked in different body shops where they always screw you over you'd know why. How many guys come in here & complain how the body shop took there money & did not do any work or screwed them over, You hear it in here constantly. Now, If these Body shops screws all these customers over what do you think they do to there own employee's? SO, Your telling me if you worked at a body shop & had a $1,000 check coming Friday &  instead got a $300 check because boss is ripping you off you'd stay at these jobs? You probaby never had that happen. I came in here to give some Advise on Shop Line clears after someone suggested using it. They can look at my pics & decide for them selves. I did not come in here to argue with you & tell you life story on why I dont like cheap low budget paint or why I only like the big 3 PPG, Dupont, BASF. Now I know why some no longer Post advise in here. I post much less then I use to because I don't need to be Interogated, critisized, scrutinized & over analyzed. Really, just look at pic & decide what you want to Use. LEON.

I can attest to that. Used to work at local guys body shop straight out of college. He never paid me on time and it was minimum wage too. He didn't provide me with safety equipment and did shoddy work. I couldn't stand there and quit that, that's only job I've quit in my lifetime.
As far as PPG-its overpriced. Ive found other products that work great for fraction of the price. I use Finish1 (Sherwin Williams), SPI

[superbirdtom]

I used sherwin williams auto paint when it said sherwin williams right on the can.  It was acrylic enamel. and a good paint. And  boy  again  you are right about PPG being way overpriced.  I just can't seem to swallow  300 dollars for a gallon of white dbc toner.   

[hemi-hampton]

If you worked in different body shops where they always screw you over you'd know why. How many guys come in here & complain how the body shop took there money & did not do any work or screwed them over, You hear it in here constantly. Now, If these Body shops screws all these customers over what do you think they do to there own employee's? SO, Your telling me if you worked at a body shop & had a $1,000 check coming Friday &  instead got a $300 check because boss is ripping you off you'd stay at these jobs? You probaby never had that happen. I came in here to give some Advise on Shop Line clears after someone suggested using it. They can look at my pics & decide for them selves. I did not come in here to argue with you & tell you life story on why I dont like cheap low budget paint or why I only like the big 3 PPG, Dupont, BASF. Now I know why some no longer Post advise in here. I post much less then I use to because I don't need to be Interogated, critisized, scrutinized & over analyzed. Really, just look at pic & decide what you want to Use. LEON.

Leon, you made contemptuous blanket statement that anything  that doesn't have PPG,DuPont or BASF label is garbage. You also stated that you had problems with Matrix and I wanted to know what were they.I wanted facts to confirm your problems with Matrix. And you're getting upset because I wanted to know the truth? Really? You didn't post any factual info ,so I simply came to defend the product I have been using for more than a decade without problems.  I do not come on here to stir a pot,but lend advice from my experience( search my posts on here) , I may not have as much of it as someone that has worked at 20 different shops in 20 years,but I think I know a enough to have a busy shop for 21 years and be able pay my bills 

OK, I'll try to explain. When I first started in Body shops in mid 80's These cheaper priced products did not exist as far as I remember. SO, I started off only using the big 3 for years. Then around late 80's these lower priced paints started to arrive. With the big 3 prices going up & insurance companies not wanting to pay you anymore for the big 3 prices as they rose then bodyshops started trying these cheaper paints. I can understand this. I don't blame them. BUT, I noticed when they switched I suddenly started running into more problems, Lifting, ect. Now, 25 years later your asking me what problems. What problem I had with each paint each time I do not remember. I did not keep a log or notes. Then & now Looking back years later, I just remember cheap paints leaving a bad taste in my mouth & me not wanting anything to do with them. I have not tried them all but lump all cheap paints together. This may be unfair & I'm sure some are better then others & some may be as good now as the big 3 for half the price. I don't like to experiment with each to find out. I did that once with my Truck & found out. You see the results. When I use cheap paint at a body shop I don't get to see the results 5+ years later. I know my top Quality Resto's still look good 20 years later. Matrix might be good for the price. I have not used it in past 10 years. As for price I have zero concern when doing my Resto's. WHY, I do things different then most body shops or resto's shops. I take car owner to PPG paint store in Person. Get a price for everthing in PPG & then a Price for everthing in low budget cheap paint & tell them to decide on what they want & they pay for what they want. They pay themselves right there & then. Some pay for the good espensive stuff some go cheap. Up to them to make that descision. I make no money or charge a % increase on materials like some shops. I think everbody should do it this way but nobody does. LEON.

[elitecustombody]

OK, I gotcha, no hard feelings But I can tell you that Matrix is far from cheap,some of their colors are double the price of DuPont. Matrix price on ZR-1 Bluestream met. code 512Q  is almost $2000 per gallon versus $800 DuPont.